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Angel Eyes

Why did Viserys son of Daemon, later Viserys II, have his son Aegon marry Naerys, instead of Aemon?

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Aegon generally mistreated her, which included raping her, which led to several miscarriages, stillbirths and her death, plus sullied her name as much as he could after she died, and legitimized all his bastards just to spite her and their son Daeron, which led to decades of unrest in the form of the Blackfyre Rebellion.

It doesn’t seem that the eldest son has to marry a daughter; Baelon Targaryen, second son of Jaehaerys I, married his sister Alyssa. Aemon at least cared about her, if not siring Daeron. He would have treated her well, and not raped her, for starters. 

But nooo, it has to be the eldest son.

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Viserys married Aegon and Naerys when they were 18 and 15 respectively. At this point, he had no way of knowing how low Aegon IV would fall. At his youth he was described as promising, vigorous and handsome, and only had had a single mistress before marriage (Falena Stokeworth). Not giving him Naerys would have been been a huge slight to him.

The main reason was probably pride. It wasn't likely that his son inherited the throne, but at least he wanted to build a powerful junior Targaryen line. Marrying your eldest son to some minor house (such as the Stokeworths) detracted from that goal. Marrying his eldest son with her daughter consolidated it.

It should also be taken into account that Viserys probably felt guilty about Aegon. It is said that the boy was very close to his mother, and it was a huge blow to him when Lady Logarre left for Lys. Viserys probably had neglected Aegon too, prioritizing his duties as Hand of the King. And he had also forced him to end his two-years relationship with Falena. I can see Viserys seeing himself as responsible for Aegon being a scarred unhappy man.

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I think the more interesting question is why Naerys wasn't married to Daeron I - and the answer to that is likely that the Aegon-Naerys marriage was determined back in the day when Viserys II was still the fourth son of Aegon III.

The age gap helps a little bit with that, but it would have worked better if Naerys had been Viserys' eldest child or at least the middle sibling.

At the time of their marriage Aegon III's children were still very young, and Aegon had only two sons. House Targaryen needed more heirs - one calamity, plague, etc. and the king might be without heirs.

And traditionally it is the duty of the eldest son to continue the line. Aemon was likely already inclined to join the Kingsguard at that point.

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

It should also be taken into account that Viserys probably felt guilty about Aegon. It is said that the boy was very close to his mother, and it was a huge blow to him when Lady Logarre left for Lys.

How do we know this? What I know is that Viserys himself was stricken when his wife left him, not his children. Although it may have impacted them, too, even more so when Larra finally died in 145 AC (prior to that they might have visited her occasionally).

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Viserys probably had neglected Aegon too, prioritizing his duties as Hand of the King. And he had also forced him to end his two-years relationship with Falena. I can see Viserys seeing himself as responsible for Aegon being a scarred unhappy man.

I'm pretty sure he shares part of the blame, but I doubt the man he became ever admitted that to Aegon. He would have seen him as a wastrel and a failure. If Aegon truly poisoned his father I'd really like the possibility that Aegon did that because he realized his father had plans to cut him out of the succession and groom and name Daeron his heir - which would have been a very wise choice. Daeron was already a man grown when Baelor the Blessed died, and likely showed all the promised his father was severely lacking. If Viserys II had ruled 10-20 years or so, Daeron II would have been the ideal successor, not the aging Aegon.

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On 1/10/2018 at 9:09 AM, Lord Varys said:

I think the more interesting question is why Naerys wasn't married to Daeron I - and the answer to that is likely that the Aegon-Naerys marriage was determined back in the day when Viserys II was still the fourth son of Aegon III.

The age gap helps a little bit with that, but it would have worked better if Naerys had been Viserys' eldest child or at least the middle sibling.

At the time of their marriage Aegon III's children were still very young, and Aegon had only two sons. House Targaryen needed more heirs - one calamity, plague, etc. and the king might be without heirs.

And traditionally it is the duty of the eldest son to continue the line. Aemon was likely already inclined to join the Kingsguard at that point.

How do we know this? What I know is that Viserys himself was stricken when his wife left him, not his children. Although it may have impacted them, too, even more so when Larra finally died in 145 AC (prior to that they might have visited her occasionally).

I'm pretty sure he shares part of the blame, but I doubt the man he became ever admitted that to Aegon. He would have seen him as a wastrel and a failure. If Aegon truly poisoned his father I'd really like the possibility that Aegon did that because he realized his father had plans to cut him out of the succession and groom and name Daeron his heir - which would have been a very wise choice. Daeron was already a man grown when Baelor the Blessed died, and likely showed all the promised his father was severely lacking. If Viserys II had ruled 10-20 years or so, Daeron II would have been the ideal successor, not the aging Aegon.

You mean fifth son. 

If Viserys saw Aegon as a wastrel and failure and loved his daughter, why give him a wife that Aegon would abuse and drive into her grave? 

As I said in the opening post, it isn't necessarily the eldest son who commits incest. Otherwise, Alyssa, who bore Viserys and Daemon, wouldn't have married Baelon; she would have married the eldest son, Aemon.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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9 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

You mean fifth son. 

No, I mean fourth son. If I remember the old appendix from AGoT correctly, then Viserys II was originally conceived as being the fourth son of Aegon III. He would have had at least four sons, Daeron I, Baelor the Blessed, an unknown third son who likely predeceased Baelor, and Viserys II. That changed when the age of Baelor Breakspear and his brothers, sons, and nephews as given in THK really made it impossible for Viserys II, Aegon IV, and Daeron II to be descendants of Aegon III. And even with the change from Viserys II from a son to a younger brother of Aegon III he still has to have his children at a very early age to make things work.

9 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

If Viserys saw Aegon as a wastrel and failure and loved his daughter, why give him a wife that Aegon would abuse and drive into her grave? 

In 153 AC Viserys wouldn't have given up hope that Aegon might come around. But the reason why he and Naerys may have less to do with Viserys own obsession to found his own Targaryen cadet branch but simply be a precaution to produce more potential heirs for the Iron Throne. And again, since Aemon might already have voiced his intention/desire to join the Kingsguard at that point, he simply fell out as a potential husband for Naerys. Aemon wouldn't have been close to Naerys in the Kingsguard while Aegon III and his sons sat the Iron Throne, considering that it was hardly a given that those kings would extend KG protection to their nephew/niece and cousins.

And if Aegon and Naerys had ended up settling in a castle of their own then Aemon might have only seen them very infrequently, in any case.

9 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

As I said in the opening post, it isn't necessarily the eldest son who commits incest. Otherwise, Alyssa, who bore Viserys and Daemon, wouldn't have married Baelon; she would have married the eldest son, Aemon.

The marriage policy of Jaehaerys I seems to be somewhat odd. It is strange that Prince Aemon was married to his half-aunt Jocelyn, the half-sister of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne instead of his full sister Alyssa who ended up marrying her younger brother Baelon.

It is somewhat understandable that Alyssa Velaryon's daughter by Lord Baratheon ended up marrying into the royal family, but it is still odd that she got the Heir Apparent and not the spare Baelon. One could attribute this to the power and influence Alyssa Velaryon and her husband may have had in the early years of Jaehaerys I's reign (the fact that the king's first daughter was named after her grandmother is testament to that influence, too) but I'm not sure if this is enough. Jaehaerys I also married his sister Alysanne, and we seem to get a hint in TSotD as to why Jaehaerys I didn't marry his elder sister Rhaena, too. He surely could have mimicked the Conqueror and Maegor in taking more than one wife. His love for Alysanne apparently explains why he married her, despite the Targaryen tradition that a son marry his eldest sister (that's why Aegon I married both Visenya and Rhaenys) while Rhaena's apparent love for Androw, the second son of Lord Farman, might provide the explanation as to why she did not end up marrying Jaehaerys I. She may have returned to Fair Isle after Maegor's downfall, finally marrying her true love. And if that's true - who knows? Perhaps Androw and Rhaena's descendants eventually inherited Faircastle and Fair Isle? Perhaps even Androw ended up as the Lord of Fair Isle because his elder brother died early and childless? We don't know yet. 

Now, one way to explain this is the simple fact that Aemon wasn't the oldest son of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne. That was Prince Aegon, the eldest child they had, even older than Princess Alyssa. We do know that the five children who died did not live to adulthood. They did not necessarily die in infancy or as toddlers. Prince Aegon may have lived long enough to be betrothed to his sister Alyssa only dying at a time when Aemon was already betrothed to Jocelyn Baratheon - say in his early teens or so. Then it would have made sense that Jaehaerys I and Alysanne could no longer call off the Aemon-Jocelyn marriage in favor of Aemon marrying Alyssa, resulting in them eventually marrying Alyssa to young Baelon.

Going with the traditional sibling marriage for a branch of the family that is imagined to become a cadet branch doesn't make a lot of sense. Baelon and Alyssa's children would be full-blooded Targaryens, inheriting blood claims both from their father and their mother - who happened to be Jaehaerys I's eldest surviving child - whereas Aemon's child(ren) would only inherit a blood claim through their father. Jocelyn Baratheon was also closely related to and connected with the royal family through her mother Alyssa Velaryon, but the Baratheons and Velaryons do not exactly have a strong blood claim of their own.

In that sense, the marriage policy is pretty odd here.

It is difficult to compare it to the situation after the Dance considering that Jaehaerys I and Alysanne really had nine children. They had more than enough heirs. Aegon III and Viserys did not - and might have been haunted by the Dance which nearly led to the extinction of their entire family.

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On 1/17/2018 at 6:29 AM, Lord Varys said:

And again, since Aemon might already have voiced his intention/desire to join the Kingsguard at that point, he simply fell out as a potential husband for Naerys.

Isn't it implied that Aemon joined the Kingsguard because Naerys married Aegon. 

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He supposedly cried when their father Viserys had Naerys marry their brother Aegon in 153 AC, and Aemon joined the Kingsguard shortly afterwards.

I had always assumed that the only reason Aemond joined the Kingsguard is because he was in love with Naerys. With the woman he wanted to marry instead married to Aegon, Aemond joins the Kingsguard. 

He may have even looked at Aegon III's side of the family, saw two sons that were just 4 and 5 years old, and understood that two children were the only things between Naerys being Queen. 

Edited by ASwordAhai

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The marriage policy of Jaehaerys I seems to be somewhat odd. It is strange that Prince Aemon was married to his half-aunt Jocelyn, the half-sister of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne instead of his full sister Alyssa who ended up marrying her younger brother Baelon.

What about the possibility that the early generations of Targaryens favored equal primogeniture? In other words, they favored the eldest child regardless of gender and regardless of their public pronunciations. 

In that case the question is not eldest son, but eldest child in general, in which case the incestuous marriage pattern seems to hold through Jaehaerys. Perhaps his main concern was Alyssa, and he wanted Alyssa to marry one of her brothers as she was the eldest child.

I suggest that the naming of Prince Aemon as heir over Princess Alyssa was the non-described First Quarrel that necessarily proceeded the Second Quarrel between Jaehaerys and Alysanne. 

I'd suggest that this is further supported by the fact that Viserys I names Rhaenyra his heir over Aegon. 

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5 hours ago, ASwordAhai said:

Isn't it implied that Aemon joined the Kingsguard because Naerys married Aegon. 

It did happen shortly after Naerys' wedding, but there is no indication that it happened because of that. Unlike Jaime-Cersei Naerys wasn't destined to be the queen from the start, nor was there a guarantee that Aemon the Kingsguard could remain close to Naerys as a Kingsguard. If Aegon III had made him this own sworn shield -or the sworn shield of one of his sons or daughters, say, his chances to be close to Naerys (who may have settled down with Aegon in another castle) would have been very limited.

5 hours ago, ASwordAhai said:

He may have even looked at Aegon III's side of the family, saw two sons that were just 4 and 5 years old, and understood that two children were the only things between Naerys being Queen. 

They were somewhat older than that in 153 AC - ten and nine, respectively - but Aemon doesn't seem to have been the guy to think in such categories. He ended up giving his life to save the brother he despised. The man was very much true to his vows, it seems. And even if had speculated that Naerys might one day become queen - that would have happened decades later in light of the fact that their father Viserys would come first (and perhaps even Aegon III's daughters). And what about Naerys' own wishes to become a septa? That career would likely have led her into the Great Sept, joining the Most Devout.

5 hours ago, ASwordAhai said:

What about the possibility that the early generations of Targaryens favored equal primogeniture? In other words, they favored the eldest child regardless of gender and regardless of their public pronunciations. 

That doesn't seem to be the case. Maegor's place in the succession is unclear after the birth of Princess Rhaena (does he come before or after Aenys' daughter) but it is quite clear that Rhaena come after her younger brothers Aegon, Viserys, and Jaehaerys. And it would have been the same with Jaehaerys I's daughters Alyssa.

5 hours ago, ASwordAhai said:

I suggest that the naming of Prince Aemon as heir over Princess Alyssa was the non-described First Quarrel that necessarily proceeded the Second Quarrel between Jaehaerys and Alysanne. 

I don't think that's very likely considering that it wouldn't be all that interesting if both quarrels were connected to the succession. The First Quarrel should be about something else - perhaps a political disagreement or even some sort of romance. I'd like it if Alysanne were living with a paramour for some years.

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On January 10, 2018 at 9:09 AM, Lord Varys said:

I think the more interesting question is why Naerys wasn't married to Daeron I - and the answer to that is likely that the Aegon-Naerys marriage was determined back in the day when Viserys II was still the fourth son of Aegon III.

 

Another interesting question is why wasn't Daeron I married to anyone, especially his sister Daena. 

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17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It did happen shortly after Naerys' wedding, but there is no indication that it happened because of that. Unlike Jaime-Cersei Naerys wasn't destined to be the queen from the start, nor was there a guarantee that Aemon the Kingsguard could remain close to Naerys as a Kingsguard. If Aegon III had made him this own sworn shield -or the sworn shield of one of his sons or daughters, say, his chances to be close to Naerys (who may have settled down with Aegon in another castle) would have been very limited

The idea that Aemon saw the possibility that the throne may fall to Aegon was really just secondary reasoning though. 

My thoughts were more along the lines of Aemon being so upset at the betrothal of Naerys that he would join the Kingsguard so he wouldn't have to marry someone else himself. Essentially, he loves Naerys and if he cannot marry her, he'll marry no one. 

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That doesn't seem to be the case. Maegor's place in the succession is unclear after the birth of Princess Rhaena (does he come before or after Aenys' daughter) but it is quite clear that Rhaena come after her younger brothers Aegon, Viserys, and Jaehaerys. And it would have been the same with Jaehaerys I's daughters Alyssa.

Is it really that clear that Prince Aegon was favored over Rhaena? Yes, Aegon was named Aenys' heir, but Aegon was also betrothed to Rhaena. 

If the early Targaryens wanted the descendants of the eldest child to inherit the throne, marrying Rhaena to Aegon the best way to accomplish that in a society that favors male primogeniture. If they really wanted the descendents of Rhaena to inherit the throne, but knew that the lords of Westeros would never accept equal primogeniture, the best solution is then to marry Rhaena to her eldest brother and name him heir.

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I don't think that's very likely considering that it wouldn't be all that interesting if both quarrels were connected to the succession. The First Quarrel should be about something else - perhaps a political disagreement or even some sort of romance. I'd like it if Alysanne were living with a paramour for some years.

Ah but perhaps it was much much more interesting! This is what I think. 

If Jaehaerys and Alysanne wanted the children of Alyssa to inherit, then the easiest way to go about that would be to marry Alyssa to Aemon; for the same reason I contend that Rhaena was betrothed to Aegon. So then the question once again becomes why didn't they betroth Alyssa to Aemon.

In a way that's what I'm suggesting the First Quarrel was; by either reckoning Aemon should have been married to Alyssa. But it wasn't just that the marriage was never arranged that angered Alysanne, but why the marriage was never arranged. Jaehaerys desired something else over the traditional incestuous marriage. The something would seem to be pretty ostensibly a marriage with House Baratheon. Now, perhaps this marriage was for practical political purposes; they just wanted to forge closer ties with the Baratheons. 

But, perhaps there was a more significant reason. The origin of the Storm Kings is in the story of Elenei and Durran Godsgrief, where Elenei gave her virginity to Durran and became mortal while Durrani and his children became Storm Kings. When he took Elenei's virginity, he seemed to become something greater, while Elenei became mortal. 

Perhaps Jaehaerys wanted the blood of Storm Kings, through the Baratheons, to become a part of House Targaryen. And Alysanne was angered by this decision because it highly resembles the tradition of First Night, which she fought so strongly against. Not in the sense of a King claiming a woman before her wedding night, but in the sense of a King maintaining power over his vassals by claiming the virginity of any woman he wanted to. Only instead of King Jaehaerys just deflowering woman on their wedding nights, he's using his leverage as King to arrange marriages for the same purpose

It was Jaehaerys desire to claim whatever power lie in the blood of House Baratheon for his own House, an action that Alysanne disagreed with and had outlawed when it manifested as the right of First Night, that started the first quarrel. 

Similarly, I believe the nature of the Second Quarrel is misunderstood along similar lines. Because the second quarrel could have easily been resolved by marrying Rhaenys to Viserys, and avoiding having to choose between Baelon and Rhaenys at all. There never should have been a quarrel in the first place. Instead, Jaehaerys desires that Viserys marry Aemma Arryn for similar reasons that he married Aemon to Jocelyn. It is not that Jaehaerys chose Baelon over Rhaenys, but that he avoided the obvious solution and made the choice at all, signaling that he didn't intend to marry Rhaenys to Viserys as would have been logical, and instead chose to once again integrate the blood of another noble house into house targaryen despite Alysannes objections to the practice. 

 

You had said that the marriage policy of Jaehaerys I seemed odd. So did I. So I took to reading and writing and reading more. This seems, at least to me, to make sense of something that doesn't make much sense at all. 

Edited by ASwordAhai

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20 hours ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Another interesting question is why wasn't Daeron I married to anyone, especially his sister Daena. 

This one is particularly interesting, as Daena and Baelor didn't marry until three years into Daeron's reign. And it's not like Daeron was too young, because Baelor was a year younger. 

I would suggest a some what unorthodox answer, in that he hoped to take a Dornish bride. Aegon III and Prince Viserys were concerned with hatching dragons, I'm sure the entire House was desperate to get their dragons back. But for some reason they couldn't hatch any eggs. I think Daeron read or was taught about Nettles during the Dance and Rhaenys dying at Hellholt and decided that the answer to hatching dragons lied in a Dornish bride descended from Rhaenys. And so he went to war with Dorne in an attempt to take his bride.

Daeron never fully succeeded but he did end the war with a set of Dornish captives. One of which, Cassella Vaith, would be taken as a mistress by King Aegon IV while he was still Prince Aegon, I suggest out of a belief similar to Daeron's. 

Edited by ASwordAhai

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