Bakker LIII - Sranc and File

[Callan S.]

It is fun to think though that the Dunsult are so spiritually weak that they are the equivalent of a bunch of dying old men with dementia. I'm not sure it's what Bakker is doing, but I think the idea works quite well all the same. I like to imagine Shae is hanging on by a thread there and almost got killed when one of the Dunsult got killed by Kellhus. He was just leaving the building at the time...I mean, really, if Ajokli was lurking in Kellhus, why can't Shae be lurking in the Dunsult?

[The Prince of Newcastle]

On 31/01/2018 at 6:08 AM, Kalbear said:

The little bit of evidence is that the DunSult talk in a very weird order. They go one after another, and for a while they go in a circle, much like Shae's talking was described. I think this is broken a couple places, but only a couple. 

If it's there, it is very, very subtle. 

This is cool, and would be cool in the book if it was true.

My problem is that if GRRM wrote the Aspect Emperor, the above would be forshadowing for the reveal later on. Then it would be in brought up in threads online 'Look at this early forshadowing of the Shae revleal'

With Bakker, this IS the reveal, and 99% of people miss it, because we are mortals and not worthy of the Bakkergod.

[The Prince of Newcastle]

On 30/01/2018 at 7:31 PM, Dora Vee said:

He managed to stay alive as long as he did by possessing semi-conscious people. He's the one who spoke to Nau-Cayuti. 

I can't remember that bit tbh... What did he say to him?

[Dora Vee]

All I remember is that there were these bodies that Shae was speaking through. Akka said that Shae was "doubly damned". I don't remember what Shae said to him. 

[Rhom]

6 hours ago, The Prince of Newcastle said:

This is cool, and would be cool in the book if it was true.

My problem is that if GRRM wrote the Aspect Emperor, the above would be forshadowing for the reveal later on in a book that is never published. Then it would be in brought up in threads online 'Look at this early forshadowing of the Shae revleal' and there would be 35 topics dedicated to the Shae-sult theory on Westeros.org.

With Bakker, this IS the reveal, and 99% of people miss it, because we are mortals and not worthy of the Bakkergod.

FTFY

[Hello World]

The R+L=J thread is at 165? Damn, I haven't looked in there in ages. 

[Callan S.]

10 hours ago, The Prince of Newcastle said:

This is cool, and would be cool in the book if it was true.

My problem is that if GRRM wrote the Aspect Emperor, the above would be forshadowing for the reveal later on. Then it would be in brought up in threads online 'Look at this early forshadowing of the Shae revleal'

With Bakker, this IS the reveal, and 99% of people miss it, because we are mortals and not worthy of the Bakkergod.

I would buy 'The Second Apocalypse for Dummies'

[Hello World]

I wonder what would change in TUC's ending if it got adapted for TV. Less cannibal rape, an actual reason why Kellhus took Kelmomas north, better reunions between Esmi, Akka, Proyas, and Ajokli would have been cut out entirely would be my guess. A lot of other pointless stuff would be cut of course. 

[Dora Vee]

Maybe something like this: "My ideal ending was to have Proyas, Mimara and some others take on mean old Kellhus and defeat him and the Consult. Then he would marry Mimara and they would simply rebuild what is left of the world. And then a rainbow, gold bunny with ruby eyes flew out of my ass."

[Spring Bass]

2 hours ago, Hello World said:

The R+L=J thread is at 165? Damn, I haven't looked in there in ages. 

Good lord, that makes me feel old. I remember when it was 9 or 10. 

Looking at the most recent page was amusing. It's like one delusional poster getting dogpiled by three or four people.

1 hour ago, Hello World said:

I wonder what would change in TUC's ending if it got adapted for TV. Less cannibal rape, an actual reason why Kellhus took Kelmomas north, better reunions between Esmi, Akka, Proyas, and Ajokli would have been cut out entirely would be my guess.

An adaptation of the Second Apocalypse in general would cut out 99% of the rape and sexual violence, especially the whole "Sranc are driven by lust to murder" aspect of them. They'd be more like generic movie orcs/goblins.

[lokisnow]

On 2/1/2018 at 4:18 PM, Hello World said:

I wonder what would change in TUC's ending if it got adapted for TV. Less cannibal rape, an actual reason why Kellhus took Kelmomas north, better reunions between Esmi, Akka, Proyas, and Ajokli would have been cut out entirely would be my guess. A lot of other pointless stuff would be cut of course. 

Just never have the momemn storyline, so you have kellhus, esme, proyas, and kelmo in constant conflict that gradually reveals kellhus slow deterioration. (And you’d have kelmo Be moenghus son and kellhus half brother so you can skip the twenty year gap)

send serwa (rename the character since she’s kellhus half sister now) and sorweel to ishterebinth right away in TJE storyline, have them meet up with Akka and mimara later, after sailfish, perhaps plot conspiracies, will she betray kellhus? 

 

[The Prince of Newcastle]

On 01/02/2018 at 11:58 PM, Callan S. said:

I would buy 'The Second Apocalypse for Dummies'

haha me too mate. Its screaming for a 'for dummies' publication

[The Prince of Newcastle]

If they were to adapt this, the amount of changes needed to get it on TV would be mind boggling. It would probably qualify as an original story by the end.

 

There is no female empoyerment in the entire 7 books. This would be added. Esme would become far more Cersei-esqu, far less of a victim. Regardless of how it effects the plotting or story, girl power would be added.

The sheer brutality of the world would have to be toned down, for obvious reasons.

I don’t know how they could show the involvement of the Gods. Ajokli would be gone for a start. White Luck Warrior could maybe survive, but I feel he’d just become a standard assassin.

Momem plot line in Aspect Emperor would be vastly expanded (In order to 1. Empower Esme and 2. Replace the depths of depravity scenes the Great Ordeal go through). It would be like Kings Landing. TBH this is probably a good thing.

The Unholy Consult would have to essentially be re-written so that it doesn’t go above the head of mere mortals like myself, and so that there was some closue to character arcs beyond ‘haha everyone is dead’

[Larry of the Lawn]

11 hours ago, The Prince of Newcastle said:

If they were to adapt this, the amount of changes needed to get it on TV would be mind boggling. It would probably qualify as an original story by the end.

 

There is no female empoyerment in the entire 7 books. This would be added. Esme would become far more Cersei-esqu, far less of a victim. Regardless of how it effects the plotting or story, girl power would be added.

The sheer brutality of the world would have to be toned down, for obvious reasons.

I don’t know how they could show the involvement of the Gods. Ajokli would be gone for a start. White Luck Warrior could maybe survive, but I feel he’d just become a standard assassin.

Momem plot line in Aspect Emperor would be vastly expanded (In order to 1. Empower Esme and 2. Replace the depths of depravity scenes the Great Ordeal go through). It would be like Kings Landing. TBH this is probably a good thing.

The Unholy Consult would have to essentially be re-written so that it doesn’t go above the head of mere mortals like myself, and so that there was some closue to character arcs beyond ‘haha everyone is dead’

Check out some of the older threads, if you're interested in a lot of speculation about adaptation.  There are some long posts about having Kellhus be a woman, making the series animated to include the sorcery and larger battles without breaking the budget, eliminating the gods all together, etc.  IIRC @lokisnowdid a pretty good season breakdown by episode and I think he even broke the pilot down into scenes.  

 

[Callan S.]

In terms of women, I'd say women in the series are basically set against hard mode play, so to speak. While men are on medium difficulty or easy mode. The women of the series do accomplish things - but against a very hard difficulty. Like the difficulty of this game, where cheap bastard tricks kill you  

I would say to be less subtle about the difficulty the women of the series are up against compared to the men.

On the other hand though, this is part of what the series does - it flies under the radar of people who want to insist on or only see male dominance. Try and show how well the female character is going against the difficulty gradient and they'll suddenly get feminist triggered and run a mile.

 

13 hours ago, The Prince of Newcastle said:

I don’t know how they could show the involvement of the Gods. Ajokli would be gone for a start. White Luck Warrior could maybe survive, but I feel he’d just become a standard assassin.

I don't understand this change at all? Why would this get 'toned down'/changed?

[Spring Bass]

14 hours ago, The Prince of Newcastle said:

There is no female empoyerment in the entire 7 books. This would be added. Esme would become far more Cersei-esqu, far less of a victim. Regardless of how it effects the plotting or story, girl power would be added.

Esme becoming a competent master of spies that pulls one over even on Eleazaras was a thing in the books too. We'd probably get a lot more of that, since Kellhus is utilitarian and hooked up with her specifically because he recognized her talents. 

Maybe they could change her profession. I've always thought Esme would be better as a fallen lowly priestess of Yatwer who has turned to prostitution to survive, setting up the connection there and making the Yatwer Cult's confrontation with her as Empress all the nastier. 

14 hours ago, The Prince of Newcastle said:

I don’t know how they could show the involvement of the Gods. Ajokli would be gone for a start. White Luck Warrior could maybe survive, but I feel he’d just become a standard assassin.

Ajokli could still work, along with the WLW. They'd just have to set that up better, and emphasize the "eternal timeless" aspect of the Outside (i.e. the gods/demons can intervene at any point in time past or future before the apocalypse). It'd be harder to explain Kelmomas without giving it away that he's the No-God reborn. 

 

14 hours ago, The Prince of Newcastle said:

The sheer brutality of the world would have to be toned down, for obvious reasons.

Lots less sexual violence, both from the Consult and their forces and in general. I think that's probably a good thing for adaptation. 

[Kalbear]

On the flip side, Altered Carbon just had a sequence that killed about 15 naked women in various brutal ways, one after the other, so I'm not sure how toned down it'd have to be any more.

[the Greenleif Stark]

I'm on page 151 of the first book, I'm not saying it's bad but it's gonna start moving along a little more soon, right?  I feel like I'm slightly confused with what's going on

[Dora Vee]

It will, yes. 

[Kalbear]

Clarity is for weaker souls