Bakker LIII - Sranc and File

[Darth Richard II]

3 hours ago, Kalbear said:

On the flip side, Altered Carbon just had a sequence that killed about 15 naked women in various brutal ways, one after the other, so I'm not sure how toned down it'd have to be any more.

I have not seen the show nor read the book(yet) but that show has been catching a lot of flak for all manner of reasons.

[Ghjhero]

1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

I have not seen the show nor read the book(yet) but that show has been catching a lot of flak for all manner of reasons.

What reasons? I thought it was pretty highly anticipated? I also haven’t seen/read it yet. 

[lokisnow]

3 hours ago, Triskele said:

Random question:  

Did TUC really clarify in any way whether what determines after determines what comes before?  Thinking back to when Kellhus argues to Moenghus that the "punish the Shrial Knights" thing on the Battleplain proves that he's the Harbinger, but Moe says it's just a correspondence of cause.

I think it just means he’s possessed.

[Darth Richard II]

18 minutes ago, Ghjhero said:

What reasons? I thought it was pretty highly anticipated? I also haven’t seen/read it yet. 

Sexism and whitewashing I see thrown around a lot. I also read a review that said it ripped off the visuals from Blade Runner. I haven't seen it so can't really comment, but the uh, treatment of women, let's say, has definitely irked more then a few people.

[lokisnow]

5 hours ago, the Greenleif Stark said:

I'm on page 151 of the first book, I'm not saying it's bad but it's gonna start moving along a little more soon, right?  I feel like I'm slightly confused with what's going on

Basically Bakker was a novice writer and poor at structure, so he was aping the lord of the rings structure (follow one set of characters stories over many chapters, then follow another set of characters, rinse and repeat)

basically, this means a novice writer thought it was a good idea for his main character to be introduced in the prologue, be very compelling,  and then not appear for the next 600 pages:

 kellhus is a monk from lands far away and long abandoned by mankind ( because the far away lands are overrun by orcs, more or less), he is the main character, and is looking for his missing Dad (who might be hanging out with the Muslims, as far away as you can get on this continent).

achamian (Akka), is a disgraced sorcerer who is told to “spy” on the Catholic Church, and he shacks up with Esmenet, a prostitute of his acquaintance, achamian wants a disgraced former student, inrau, to spy for him and akka is willing sit around complaining for two hundred pages until esme and inrau do what he wants for him. 

achamian belongs to a group of sorcerers who are convinced Sauron and his minions (no god + consult) will return any minute, after being gone for two thousand years. Everyone thinks they’re a sad and pathetic joke and achamian doesn’t even believe in Saurons resurrection anymore .

the church calls a jihad on the Muslims and away we go, since it’s national public news, achamian really got that scoop with his “spying”

however the emperor of Rome (Xerius) wants to exploit the Jihad to advance his empires reach, he plans to barter the military genius of Julius Caesar  (conphas), his nephew To purchase what he wants.

conan the barbarian (cnaiur, pronounced nay-ur) fights a battle against conphas, then returns home where he will run into kellhus. Conan is one of the only people alive who has met kellhus’ Dad, so that meeting kicks off a quest, naturally.

basically, if you’re bored with the Akka storylines skip ahead to the first two chapters of the next section, then skip way ahead and read the first two chapters of the fourth  section. Then go back and reread the other parts. It will be much less boring.

so read, the chapters:

1, 5, 2, 6, 3, 12, 4, 7, 13, 9, 8, 10, 14, 11, 15-19

its a much better reading experience, so avoid novice writer problems and do yourself a favor.

[Spring Bass]

6 hours ago, Kalbear said:

On the flip side, Altered Carbon just had a sequence that killed about 15 naked women in various brutal ways, one after the other, so I'm not sure how toned down it'd have to be any more.

I dunno. I think there's "brutal fight scene between two women", and then there's "our orcs are engineered to have an irresistible lust to cut holes in you and rape them". Even Altered Carbon kind of pulled its punches on depicting the latter (mostly). 

[Lutarez]

"IIRC @lokisnowdid a pretty good season breakdown by episode and I think he even broke the pilot down into scenes." 

 

Where can I find this? anyone know? would be cool to read

[the Greenleif Stark]

6 hours ago, lokisnow said:

Basically Bakker was a novice writer and poor at structure, so he was aping the lord of the rings structure (follow one set of characters stories over many chapters, then follow another set of characters, rinse and repeat)

basically, this means a novice writer thought it was a good idea for his main character to be introduced in the prologue, be very compelling,  and then not appear for the next 600 pages:

 kellhus is a monk from lands far away and long abandoned by mankind ( because the far away lands are overrun by orcs, more or less), he is the main character, and is looking for his missing Dad (who might be hanging out with the Muslims, as far away as you can get on this continent).

achamian (Akka), is a disgraced sorcerer who is told to “spy” on the Catholic Church, and he shacks up with Esmenet, a prostitute of his acquaintance, achamian wants a disgraced former student, inrau, to spy for him and akka is willing sit around complaining for two hundred pages until esme and inrau do what he wants for him. 

achamian belongs to a group of sorcerers who are convinced Sauron and his minions (no god + consult) will return any minute, after being gone for two thousand years. Everyone thinks they’re a sad and pathetic joke and achamian doesn’t even believe in Saurons resurrection anymore .

the church calls a jihad on the Muslims and away we go, since it’s national public news, achamian really got that scoop with his “spying”

however the emperor of Rome (Xerius) wants to exploit the Jihad to advance his empires reach, he plans to barter the military genius of Julius Caesar  (conphas), his nephew To purchase what he wants.

conan the barbarian (cnaiur, pronounced nay-ur) fights a battle against conphas, then returns home where he will run into kellhus. Conan is one of the only people alive who has met kellhus’ Dad, so that meeting kicks off a quest, naturally.

basically, if you’re bored with the Akka storylines skip ahead to the first two chapters of the next section, then skip way ahead and read the first two chapters of the fourth  section. Then go back and reread the other parts. It will be much less boring.

so read, the chapters:

1, 5, 2, 6, 3, 12, 4, 7, 13, 9, 8, 10, 14, 11, 15-19

its a much better reading experience, so avoid novice writer problems and do yourself a favor.

Thank you, very helpful and greatly appreciated 

[Ghjhero]

7 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Sexism and whitewashing I see thrown around a lot. I also read a review that said it ripped off the visuals from Blade Runner. I haven't seen it so can't really comment, but the uh, treatment of women, let's say, has definitely irked more then a few people.

Well that’s unfortunate. I’ll see what I think when I eventually get around to it. 

[The Prince of Newcastle]

14 hours ago, Callan S. said:

 

I don't understand this change at all? Why would this get 'toned down'/changed?

I felt the Ajokli involvment in Kelmomas story, Kellhus and Cniuar was very subtle and confusing. I dont know how they could show it on the screen.

[The Prince of Newcastle]

8 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Sexism and whitewashing I see thrown around a lot. I also read a review that said it ripped off the visuals from Blade Runner. I haven't seen it so can't really comment, but the uh, treatment of women, let's say, has definitely irked more then a few people.

We should just ban everything. Absolutely everything

[The Prince of Newcastle]

8 hours ago, lokisnow said:

 

1, 5, 2, 6, 3, 12, 4, 7, 13, 9, 8, 10, 14, 11, 15-19

its a much better reading experience, so avoid novice writer problems and do yourself a favor.

I really wouldnt read the book out of sequence.

1. Its nowhere near as bewildering as Gardens of the Moon for example.

2. Bakker wants it read in the correct order. How could you possiblty understand his monumental genius if you read it out of order? 

3. Layers of revelation.

4. It does get pretty awesome, just dont bother with the last 2 books in Aspect Emperor as you are just a man and wont be able to comprehend their genius. Just make something up in your head. Like the end of LoTR which is much better frankly.

[Darth Richard II]

6 hours ago, Ghjhero said:

Well that’s unfortunate. I’ll see what I think when I eventually get around to it. 

Eh, I'm not saying it's true, just that certain areas of the Internet are being the Internet. The same thing happened when GoT premiered.

[Darth Richard II]

5 hours ago, The Prince of Newcastle said:

I really wouldnt read the book out of sequence.

1. Its nowhere near as bewildering as Gardens of the Moon for example.

2. Bakker wants it read in the correct order. How could you possiblty understand his monumental genius if you read it out of order? 

3. Layers of revelation.

4. It does get pretty awesome, just dont bother with the last 2 books in Aspect Emperor as you are just a man and wont be able to comprehend their genius. Just make something up in your head. Like the end of LoTR which is much better frankly.

Lol at # 3

[Ghjhero]

2 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Eh, I'm not saying it's true, just that certain areas of the Internet are being the Internet. The same thing happened when GoT premiered.

Good point. The internet never fails to complain!

[Kalbear]

I think the whitewashing is somewhat absurd as a complaint, given the very diverse cast that was expanded from the book itself. I get why they complained (Kovacs in a white body) but it really isn't reasonable.

The violence towards women, sexualized violence in particular, is a major component and plot point of the storyline, and that hasn't changed a bit. If anything it's become even worse than the books, with one notable exception. 

[Darth Richard II]

33 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I think the whitewashing is somewhat absurd as a complaint, given the very diverse cast that was expanded from the book itself. I get why they complained (Kovacs in a white body) but it really isn't reasonable.

The violence towards women, sexualized violence in particular, is a major component and plot point of the storyline, and that hasn't changed a bit. If anything it's become even worse than the books, with one notable exception. 

Oh I'm sure 99 percent of it is absurd, my point was that I still think a straight Bakker adaptation would piss people off.

[kuenjato]

I'm reminded of another major issue of TAE. Bakker constantly claimed the sex / gender stuff was a major internal theme, one that shouldn't be criticized until the series was complete, as he was intentionally evoking gender oppression to... [wait for it!]. Problem was, nothing was illuminated by the end, and all the sexual violence wasn't given any context, rendering it borderline-exploitative / crapsack world building. (I use "borderline" because Esme's sections, at least in the first trilogy, made me sympathetic towards her. But Bakker tooted his own horn about how he was radically changing literature, and that toot sounds like a wet fart in hindsight).  

[Darth Richard II]

Where did the phrase "layers of revelation" actually originate? Did Bakker say that in some interview or was it from an overactive fanboy?

[Spring Bass]

If they ever did make a Second Apocalypse adaptation, I think the magic should look kind of phony and ridiculous. It's compared in-universe to a child scribbling across a master painting, so it would actually make more sense for at least the Anagogic sorcery to look bizarre and fake in display. Gnostic sorcery could be all fancy lines and geometric patterns. 

8 hours ago, kuenjato said:

Problem was, nothing was illuminated by the end, and all the sexual violence wasn't given any context, rendering it borderline-exploitative / crapsack world building. (I use "borderline" because Esme's sections, at least in the first trilogy, made me sympathetic towards her. But Bakker tooted his own horn about how he was radically changing literature, and that toot sounds like a wet fart in hindsight). 

It took him way too long to bring up the idea that the Hundred and Ciphrang are possibly stoking violence and bad behavior in the World, making it worse than we'd expect if there was no Outside.