Bakker LIII - Sranc and File

[redjako]

 

12 hours ago, Rhom said:

That was always going to happen though, wasn’t it?

...

The sad thing is that the book as written actually left quite a bit open to discussion and we were having some decent debate in the early post TUC threads here, then he opened his mouth and killed it all.  

I actually think in retrospect, while I was disappointed after reading, specifically with:

the utter worthlessness of Achamian and companies journey, and the final meetup with Kellhus

I don't know if I actually felt that much of the emptiness and balloon-deflation until AFTER Bakker's AMA. Very good point. 

 

[Darth Richard II]

1 hour ago, Callan S. said:

I have to wonder if the internet had been around during the empire strikes back, whether people would have said

  Reveal hidden contents

the bad guy wins? That's it.

At the very least, doesn't the ending raise the question 'who is the bad guy'? Does not the eternal torture machine known as damnation seem just a little bit over the fucking top and (given Esme had uncle holy killed, the most mad thing of all that Inrelatis could think of to do, but Esme is 'good') just arbitrary? Putting school yard bullies in charge of the school yard?

As to whether all the main characters die, it's been left pretty open. Especially given Cnaiurs guest appearance, since it seemed he was out.

 

 Comparing TUC to Empire has got to be the craziest thing that's happened in this thread so far.

[Caligula_K3]

On 3/1/2018 at 6:00 PM, kuenjato said:

This may be, which would be ironic, because IMO (and despite my disappointment with TAE), he's much, much, much better than any of the so-called superstars of the fantasy epic these days, who (let's face it) are all one trick ponies. Sanderson with his video game tutorials and puzzles and bloat, Williams with his bloat, Abercrombie with his pulp/blue collar confections, Erikson with his contempt for editing or coherency, Rothfuss the wacky hack, Martin (haha! WoW haha!) Goodkind (shudder), and so forth. 

I really can't agree with this. Ok, sure, Bakker may be better than Goodkind and Rothfuss and Sanderson, but I'd say he's much more of a one trick pony than Abercrombie, Erikson, and Martin. He may have more ambition than an author like Abercrombie, but that doesn't make him a better writer or storyteller. And funny you should mention Erikson with his contempt for editing and coherency, and Williams with his bloat...

Mileage will vary and all that, but I count The Great Ordeal and the Unholy Consult as two of the worst sci-fi/fantasy novels I've read in the past couple of years. I'm by no means a Brandon Sanderson fan, but I would much rather re-read Mistborn than either of those novels. Meanwhile, there are lots of ambitious fantasy writers out there who are putting out much higher quality work than Bakker is, from Vandermeer to Jemisin.

 

[Callan S.]

Off topic...Kellhus said Kelmomas had two souls and they swapped with each other without realising it at random times.

I hadn't considered the idea at the time, but if you take Kellhus as having two souls, what if his swap back and forth imperceptibly to himself as well?

[lokisnow]

Do I restarted the TGO audio book because I hate leaving it undone:

one of the first things I notice is: 

Spoiler

 

Kelmomas prayed, to no god in particular”

ahh #bakkerhumor he’s so smart amiright?

btw the scene before theli is killed has Kelmomas almost reason that he is the no god, but then his brain scatters away from following that line of thought

 

I actually started up right after the scalding, and had to listen to a couple pages of the horrors to come, it’s effective, works well, and is concise  no reason when the story picks up in the next book for the ordeal to not be arriving at golgotteranth, surely we couldn’t possibly be due for a tedious 300 page extrapolation and expansion on this three page litany of horrors could we? Surely not. Right? No one could be that... inept... after doing it so well here, right?

[Darth Richard II]

oh its only like 100 pages!

[Darth Richard II]

On 3/1/2018 at 6:00 PM, kuenjato said:

This may be, which would be ironic, because IMO (and despite my disappointment with TAE), he's much, much, much better than any of the so-called superstars of the fantasy epic these days, who (let's face it) are all one trick ponies. Sanderson with his video game tutorials and puzzles and bloat, Williams with his bloat, Abercrombie with his pulp/blue collar confections, Erikson with his contempt for editing or coherency, Rothfuss the wacky hack, Martin (haha! WoW haha!) Goodkind (shudder), and so forth. 

Random observation here, but you might want to try some (gasp) female authors at some point.

[Dora Vee]

16 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

No one could be that... inept... after doing it so well here, right?

The more I think about it, the more I believe that Bakker didn't so much as drop the ball, but shatter it to pieces and shit all over them. 

TUC did have some redeeming qualities, but not enough. Every time I think about it, I turn into an ANGER NOODLE. 

[Darth Richard II]

It does kind feel like it was written by someone else, doesn't it? :/

[Dora Vee]

Yea, kind of, but I think only Bakker can make the Field Appalling happening beautiful. 

Beyond that? Yea, like someone trying to be him, but having little to no info or notes.

[kuenjato]

4 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Random observation here, but you might want to try some (gasp) female authors at some point.

I actually have Kate Elliot's Spirit series on my to-read shelf, though I have a half dozen books before it.

Any recs? Part of the reason I didn't include women authors is because I was critting doorstopper epic fantasy, which dominates the majority of discussion round these parts.

[Darth Richard II]

You are the evil blasphemer who does not like Hobb, right?

[Tears of Lys]

On ‎3‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 8:44 PM, Hello World said:

Not sure why you spoilered that but I didn't think it was established whether Kellhus was acting in the interest of humanity or not upto TGO.

 

Yeah, I didn't make it clear that I had finally read TGO.  Next up, TUC. 

[Caligula_K3]

9 hours ago, kuenjato said:

I actually have Kate Elliot's Spirit series on my to-read shelf, though I have a half dozen books before it.

Any recs? Part of the reason I didn't include women authors is because I was critting doorstopper epic fantasy, which dominates the majority of discussion round these parts.

NK Jemisin's Broken Earth trilogy, Kameron Hurley's Bel Dame Apocrypha, and if you don't mind straight up sci-fi, Ann Leckie's Imperial Raadch trilogy are good places to start.  

[Dora Vee]

Jacqueline Carey is pretty good too. I liked Margaret Weis and Holly Lisle too. 

[Kalbear]

13 hours ago, kuenjato said:

I actually have Kate Elliot's Spirit series on my to-read shelf, though I have a half dozen books before it.

Any recs? Part of the reason I didn't include women authors is because I was critting doorstopper epic fantasy, which dominates the majority of discussion round these parts.

I know it's a 'kids' book, but the Valente fairyland stories are some of the most achingly beautiful and emotive books I've read ever, and parts of them are my favorite thing ever. 

[Darth Richard II]

3 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

NK Jemisin's Broken Earth trilogy, Kameron Hurley's Bel Dame Apocrypha, and if you don't mind straight up sci-fi, Ann Leckie's Imperial Raadch trilogy are good places to start.  

These are good. Normally I'd go Hobb but I think I remember you're one of THEM. (angry face).

 

[kuenjato]

11 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I know it's a 'kids' book, but the Valente fairyland stories are some of the most achingly beautiful and emotive books I've read ever, and parts of them are my favorite thing ever. 

I liked her Prester John series, at least the first two books. Really beautiful writing. Pity it doesn't look like the third will come out (even though it was written), as Night Shade folded and the rights might be tied up.

[Darth Richard II]

Ohh Night Shade folding screwed up so much, I could cry.

Anyway my brain is not working right now, but whoever wrote The Court of Broken Knives, which I have not read yet but heard good things about here, is apparently a BIG fan of Bakker, so you could give that a shot.

[Caligula_K3]

35 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

These are good. Normally I'd go Hobb but I think I remember you're one of THEM. (angry face).

 

Oh, some Hobb is definitely good as well, though my mileage varies on her individual trilogies. I liked Liveship Traders the most, Farseer is quite good though its last book is not, and I couldn't finish the Tawny Man trilogy. I've also liked some of her short stories.