Kalbear Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 Valente's refrigerator monologues is also pretty awesome, though boy is it a different style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 Cynthia Voight's Kingdom series, marketed as YA but is pretty fucking awesome to read as an adult. Jackaroo and especially The Wings of a Falcon held really well on rereads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 *deleted because I think I violated forum rules* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 2 hours ago, larrytheimp said: *deleted because I think I violated forum rules* I'm pretty sure Bakker's very existence is a violation of forum rules. Some are so damned by their own nature they cannot be redeemed. Bakker is the kid in Superbad that draws penis-es all the time, right? I mean, this is the series where the central reason all the main characters agree that Kellhus is bad is because Kellhus is lovable, love is the characteristic that connotes badness in this story. ;-) Makes you wonder what woman "made Bakker love!" in... let's say undergrad... that made him hold such resentment for so long, (of course he had to make a fictional character with that kind of power ("makes you love!") male, because reasons reasons something something). alternatively, perhaps it was another dude who "stole" the girl bakker believed himself to be in possession of? and since she's not a person to him, her feelings weren't real, and the dude was therefore inherently obviously not sincere and therefore she didn't realize how dumb she was for falling for someone who, "makes you love!!!" note sarcasm, and total and complete sillyness y'll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Lol. The deleted comment involved the number of times McCarthy was mentioned in a Bakker thread, sranc, and handjobs. Probably should have left it, after all the mods can't see me, Father! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 3 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said: Don't you guys think The Road might be a more appropriate McCarthy comparison with the idea folks have floated about the first TNG book than Blood Meridian? Crabicus reminds me a lot more of The Boy than of The Kid. Ditto the dynamic with society. Doubtful unless he's going to have a father figure around as well. The father-son dynamic was the big thing about the Road. I don't see that happening here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 Kelmomas was always the no mod? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.H. Posted March 8, 2018 Author Share Posted March 8, 2018 19 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said: Don't you guys think The Road might be a more appropriate McCarthy comparison with the idea folks have floated about the first TNG book than Blood Meridian? Crabicus reminds me a lot more of The Boy than of The Kid. Ditto the dynamic with society. I mean, it's possible that it could be some amalgam of the two. I mean, who knows? I am fully prepared to be, and mostly expect to be, wrong on everything. But Bakker did say he usually writes with a copy of Blood Meridian and a copy of the Bible with him, so I couldn't help but offer the idea of a parallel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutarez Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 saw an interesting thread on reddit. It was probably discussed here, but still, it's a cool idea. "So he seizes the lake and the thousand babes and the void and the massing-descending Sons and the lamentations-that-are-honey, and he rips them about the pole, transforms here into here, this-place-inside-where-you-sit now, where he has always hidden, always watched, where Other Sons, recline, drinking from bowls that are skies, savouring the moaning broth of the Countless, bloating for the sake of bloat, slaking hungers like chasms, pits that eternity had rendered Holy" here he goes from hell to heaven. The "other sons" may be the gods or the opposite of ciprang. What is interesting is the "pits that eternity has rendered Holy". Does this mean that in the Outside the Gods (or heaven) is eternal while hell and the ciprang are not? Do the eternal gods make heaven "holy" or does the place make the Ciprang that gather there somehow different than the others? Any consensus on Head on the Pole chapter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 Yeah, Bakker saw his reflection in a window and thought it looked cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 51 minutes ago, Triskele said: This is actually one of the more shocking and disappointing "revelations" assuming one can take it seriously. Any reader encountering the head on a pole chapter would have had the reasonable expectation that there was something to it. I thought that was supposed to be taken seriously? If there's another explanation please point me to it though. (Not being caustic, I'd love for it to actually have meant something). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 5 hours ago, Darth Richard II said: I thought that was supposed to be taken seriously? If there's another explanation please point me to it though. (Not being caustic, I'd love for it to actually have meant something). I think it was RRL who pointed out that Onkis, the goddess (or god?) that Inrau prays to, is described as a head on a pole. So not a huge leap to assume some sort of association here. But it turns out Bakker just thought it was cool. Similarly frustrating was Baker deciding to describe two different gods as four-horned (Ajokli and Gilgaol). And then have them both possess or seem to possess people during battle. There are so many things that seemed like genuine connections or like there was something more there and then other turns out it's more like he just suggests without it really meaning anything. If there's a series where the author's comments altered the reading experience more than this one, I certainly can't think of it. 'death of the author' is a crucial concept for maintaining reader sanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 I'm still not sure what's going on with Gilgaol and Ajokli. Bakker didn't say anywhere they were definitely two different gods, right? Or is the fact that they look similar supposed to be an "Aha!" moment when we realize it was Ajokli talking to Celmomas, when he confused which god was talking to him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutarez Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 I am really curious about this part. Saw more threads about the head, but nobody seems to mention this: "pits that eternity had rendered Holy". Does this mean anything? or is it a throwaway line ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 He's just using poetic-ish language to describe the Gods. He uses the word pit because it describes them - they're holes that devour up human suffering - and because the word itself has negative connotations. And he's contrasting that with the fact that by their nature of being Gods (the eternity bit), they're automatically Holy despite being supernatural monsters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dez Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 I think the main purpose of the head on a pole series of scenes was to use a glimpse of Kellhus's POV to hint at the gradual decline of his identity as Ajokli got stronger control over him. The scene works reasonably well if you read it in that light. The imagery of the head over the shoulder works with that theme also. On the one hand I think the scene is another example of Bakker's tendency to get a little to mysterious. But on the other, there was a risk of tipping his hand toward the endgame. 2 hours ago, Ajûrbkli said: I'm still not sure what's going on with Gilgaol and Ajokli. Bakker didn't say anywhere they were definitely two different gods, right? Or is the fact that they look similar supposed to be an "Aha!" moment when we realize it was Ajokli talking to Celmomas, when he confused which god was talking to him? I think were supposed to take it as that sort of aha moment but it doesn't really work because Bakker went too far to keep Ajokli's play with Kellhus a reveal for practically the last minute. He did a pretty good job of laying a false trail for the reader to follow regarding Ajokli and Kelmomas which at the same time throws up smoke over Kel's conflation with the No God (which was also effectively built up as development). But there doesn't seem to be any corresponding path of clues to hint toward what Ajokli was actually up to with Kellhus except by looking by at the developments and seeing Ajokli there by process of elimination rather than any affirmative clues anyone could have figured out prior to the reveal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 3 hours ago, Lutarez said: I am really curious about this part. Saw more threads about the head, but nobody seems to mention this: "pits that eternity had rendered Holy". Does this mean anything? or is it a throwaway line ? The last two books are throwaway books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 7 hours ago, Ajûrbkli said: I'm still not sure what's going on with Gilgaol and Ajokli. Bakker didn't say anywhere they were definitely two different gods, right? Or is the fact that they look similar supposed to be an "Aha!" moment when we realize it was Ajokli talking to Celmomas, when he confused which god was talking to him? before the series/author apocalypse occured, I was banging a drum that War is a Lie, ergo Gilgaol is Ajokli. Quote I am really curious about this part. Saw more threads about the head, but nobody seems to mention this: "pits that eternity had rendered Holy". prior to the aforementioned apocalypse, I had argued that this line, along with the "Other Sons" reference, suggested that it was talking about heaven/gods, (and possibly the non men) teasing out a connection between heaven and hell and that any compensatory gods were probably no different than the vindictive demon gods. Now, probably no there there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 15 hours ago, larrytheimp said: If there's a series where the author's comments altered the reading experience more than this one, I certainly can't think of it. 'death of the author' is a crucial concept for maintaining reader sanity. Extra irony considering how much Bakker hates "death of the author". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Bass Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 On 3/27/2018 at 1:58 PM, Lutarez said: here he goes from hell to heaven. The "other sons" may be the gods or the opposite of ciprang. What is interesting is the "pits that eternity has rendered Holy". Does this mean that in the Outside the Gods (or heaven) is eternal while hell and the ciprang are not? Do the eternal gods make heaven "holy" or does the place make the Ciprang that gather there somehow different than the others? What Ajurbkli said about the Gods, although it could also be in reference to the Gods' sub-realms/areas of influence within the Outside. Sorweel perceives a grassy field aching with fertility when Yatwer embraces him - I interpreted that as his soul giving meaning and place to what he was experiencing in Yatwer's "realm", sort of like how Kellhus perceives the area where the Ciphrang hunt souls as a lake of fire. They're all basically the same kind of creature plus time and influence, hence the one chapter starting quote about how the "sighs in heaven and screams in hell" sounded the same. The Hundred may have a different origin than the Ciphrang (who seem to be ascended souls who had that combination of extreme determination and extreme anger that Cnaiur and Gin'yursis had, so now they get to feed on other souls), but they're doing the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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