Tourney at Harrenhal: Forfeit/ransom after Brandon Stark's loss to Rhaegar Targaryen

[Bael's Bastard]

@Widow's Watch made an excellent observation in the R+L=J v.165 thread about Brandon Stark's loss to Rhaegar Targaryen at the Harrenhal tourney that seems so obvious now, but which I had never even considered before.

As we are told in The Hedge Knight: "those vanquished in tourney forfeit their arms, armor, and horse to the victors, and must needs ransom them back." Therefore, we should expect Brandon to have had to go through the motions of forfeiting or ransoming his arms, armor, and horse to Rhaegar.

It seems likely that such a meeting between Brandon and Rhaegar would have occurred before Rhaegar's victory over Barristan Selmy, and thus before Rhaegar crowned Lyanna the queen of love and beauty and placed the crown of blue winter roses in the lap of Lyanna.

It also seems likely that their tilt and the forfeit/ransom meeting would have occurred after the Knight of the Laughing Tree defeated the three knights and ransomed their stuff back with the demand that they chastise their squires who had bullied Howland Reed.

What are your thoughts? Do you think Brandon went to Rhaegar to forfeit/ransom his stuff? What might Rhaegar have said or revealed about his knowledge of the identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree? Did this meeting contribute significantly to Brandon's reaction to Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna?

This seems to me to be a major scene that almost certainly must have occurred, but has sort of been hidden-in-plain-sight, as it hasn't been explicitly stated, but is implied by what we know about how tourneys work.

[AlaskanSandman]

48 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

@Widow's Watch made an excellent observation in the R+L=J v.165 thread about Brandon Stark's loss to Rhaegar Targaryen at the Harrenhal tourney that seems so obvious now, but which I had never even considered before.

As we are told in The Hedge Knight: "those vanquished in tourney forfeit their arms, armor, and horse to the victors, and must needs ransom them back." Therefore, we should expect Brandon to have had to go through the motions of forfeiting or ransoming his arms, armor, and horse to Rhaegar.

It seems likely that such a meeting between Brandon and Rhaegar would have occurred before Rhaegar's victory over Barristan Selmy, and thus before Rhaegar crowned Lyanna the queen of love and beauty and placed the crown of blue winter roses in the lap of Lyanna.

It also seems likely that their tilt and the forfeit/ransom meeting would have occurred after the Knight of the Laughing Tree defeated the three knights and ransomed their stuff back with the demand that they chastise their squires who had bullied Howland Reed.

What are your thoughts? Do you think Brandon went to Rhaegar to forfeit/ransom his stuff? What might Rhaegar have said or revealed about his knowledge of the identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree? Did this meeting contribute significantly to Brandon's reaction to Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna?

This seems to me to be a major scene that almost certainly must have occurred, but has sort of been hidden-in-plain-sight, as it hasn't been explicitly stated, but is implied by what we know about how tourneys work.

Well since it's coming from the R+L=J thread,

 Id imagine Rhaegar simply told him na, it's cool bro, or Rhaegar had his servants take care of that kind of stuff.

Either way, Rhaegar surprised him by taking Lyanna instead or also.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

49 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

What are your thoughts? Do you think Brandon went to Rhaegar to forfeit/ransom his stuff? What might Rhaegar have said or revealed about his knowledge of the identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree? Did this meeting contribute significantly to Brandon's reaction to Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna?

Like every person entering the lists, Brandon would have had to ransom his stuff. The question is whether he went to Rhaegar himself as the Frey, Blount and Haigh knights went to the KotLT or if he sent his squire in his stead. But since is seems Brandon is full of pride, I'd say he went himself to Rhaegar.

I wondered before if there was some animosity between Rhaegar and Brandon beforehand, but if a scene like this happened where Brandon had to go Rhaegar, then maybe things were said in that tent. And I think it would have contributed to his reaction to the crowning of Lyanna. He allegedly had to be restrained. 

With regard to Rhaegar's knowledge about the KotLT, he was sent after them the following day, not right after the KotLT was done competing. They stayed around to meet with the knights they beat. So if Rhaegar knew who the KotLT was, he either stumbled upon them or he already knew who it was because he recognized their "style". Lyanna rides her horse like a northman, and while there's no shortage of them at the tourney, there are probably not that many who are small of stature.

I'm really wondering about Brandon's character, though. What if he's the one who lied about the kidnapping? Turned it into something it wasn't? What if he was told exactly what happened and decided in his mind that it was a kidnapping? 

49 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

This seems to me to be a major scene that almost certainly must have occurred, but has sort of been hidden-in-plain-sight, as it hasn't been explicitly stated, but is implied by what we know about how tourneys work.

It really is, isn't it? Bran's thoughts on the ransom was that it was stupid, but it really isn't. It may be one of the most important parts of the story Meera told. This is the best way for Rhaegar to meet with people and gauging them without giving himself away.

[PrettyPig]

Someone refresh my memory on the order of operations re: the ransom of armor—does it happen as the tourney goes along with each days’ bracket winners, or all at the end with the final winner?

either way it sheds new light on the possible interruption of the plot—if Rhaegar or a Rhaegar proxy was using the ransom face time to pass info and scheme, the KotLT threw a big monkey wrench into that machine with regard to House Frey, Haigh, and whoever else he beat out that day.   My guess is that House Frey (Black Walder?) was supposed to be hip deep in the plot and got screwed out of the opportunity thanks to the mystery knight.

also, it is worth considering that Rhaegar May have already been foiled once.  Recall that some time  not too long before the tourney, Elia Martell’s caravan was attacked in the Kingswood by the Kingswood Brotherhood—the part that catches my interest here is that the outlaws made off with a chest of golden dragons.   Think about that—why was she traveling with that kind of cash?  And it kind of sounds like a tourney’s purse, does it not?  I think that was coin set aside for a specific purpose of Rhaegar’s, and he got jacked.   This is also connected to the tourney, and maybe even the mystery knight, imo.

[Bael's Bastard]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Id imagine Rhaegar simply told him na, it's cool bro, or Rhaegar had his servants take care of that kind of stuff.

I don't recall if we have any example of a squire acting on behalf of a victor for the ransom. We have one case in The Mystery Knight where the loser, Lord Costayne, sends his squire to ransom his horse from the victor, Ser Glendon Ball. Other than that, I think the examples we have show the loser and victor working out the ransom themselves.

[Ckram]

@PrettyPig I think you're in a good direction. Keep going.

[Bael's Bastard]

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

It really is, isn't it? Bran's thoughts on the ransom was that it was stupid, but it really isn't. It may be one of the most important parts of the story Meera told. This is the best way for Rhaegar to meet with people and gauging them without giving himself away.

I agree, to me the ransoming aspect seems very important now, particularly in the case of Brandon. Though personally, I lean toward Rhaegar's original plans for the tourney being dashed before it even started, and him pretty much going into it a defeated man. That is the state I picture him in when he becomes aware of Lyanna. I lean toward Tywin being a major part of whatever plans Rhaegar had, and I think Tywin completely withdrew from any plans with Rhaegar after after Aerys named Jaime to the Kingsguard. That said, there is so much we don't know, so I am open to other possibilities.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, PrettyPig said:

either way it sheds new light on the possible interruption of the plot—if Rhaegar or a Rhaegar proxy was using the ransom face time to pass info and scheme, the KotLT threw a big monkey wrench into that machine with regard to House Frey, Haigh, and whoever else he beat out that day.   My guess is that House Frey (Black Walder?) was supposed to be hip deep in the plot and got screwed out of the opportunity thanks to the mystery knight.

Do you think Rhaegar involve a Frey in anything, though? We know Rhaegar didn't place his trust in many people. He certainly didn't trust Barristan, someone he knew his entire life with his plans. I personally don't see him telling any Freys anything. Ditto House Haigh who are House Frey's bannermen.

House Blount is a small house in the Crownlands and sworn to King's Landing, so I think they're out. Even the Houses sworn to Dragonstone seem a bit iffy to me. 

I think the interesting part about this is the two names we are given by Ned. We know Brandon lost against him, but so did Bronze Yohn. Bronze Yohn is Jon Arryn's most powerful bannerman. 

I still don't know how anyone can really express their views knowing that Aerys is present.

@Bael's Bastard

Quote

I agree, to me the ransoming aspect seems very important now, particularly in the case of Brandon. Though personally, I lean toward Rhaegar's original plans for the tourney being dashed before it even started, and him pretty much going into it a defeated man. That is the state I picture him in when he becomes aware of Lyanna. I lean toward Tywin being a major part of whatever plans Rhaegar had, and I think Tywin completely withdrew from any plans with Rhaegar after after Aerys named Jaime to the Kingsguard. That said, there is so much we don't know, so I am open to other possibilities.

I agree with this, that Rhaegar went into this already defeated and knew. And we really don't know anything more than what we've been given. But Aerys is there and his plan had to shift somehow, so maybe it's not about him calling a great council, but gauging the lords' moods instead. Aerys is there, it's the first time he's been seen in years. 

We know from both Jaime's recollection of his last conversation with Rhaegar and Barristan's own thoughts that things went very wrong at Harrenhal. 

I think what the ransoming aspect does is that it puts two people in the same room. There doesn't even need to be a conspiracy or anything like that. The ransom puts two people who we believe never interacted, because it's not mentioned in the story, to maybe they did end up in the same room because Brandon had to get his things back. If they did interact, I doubt that went very well. 

About Tywin, my first thought about him is what does he want in return for supporting Rhaegar? For Cersei to be married to him? 

[PrettyPig]

22 minutes ago, Ckram said:

@PrettyPig I think you're in a good direction. Keep going.

Heh...trust me, I have already gone miles further in this direction already, just not here on this forum.  My tinfoil stretches infinitely, like the horizon.

[Ckram]

It did just occuried to me: what if houses Frey, Haigh and Blount were in line with Aerys and the KotLT screwed his plans? That would put some rationality on Aerys' certainty that the KotLT was his enemy.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

1 hour ago, PrettyPig said:

Someone refresh my memory on the order of operations re: the ransom of armor—does it happen as the tourney goes along with each days’ bracket winners, or all at the end with the final winner?

The moment the joust is lost. Dunk at least went to settle his debt to the slug knight way before the tourney's end.

That said: I'm not sure if GRRM himself thought of that detail. Usually, it's important who unhorsed whom and who won, and what happens later re: horse and armor is rarely spared a thought. The author needed Rhaegar to be invincible that day, and for that he must needs have unhorsed Brandon Stark (and Ser Barristan the Bold, and the Sword of the Morning).

[Bael's Bastard]

41 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

 

@Bael's Bastard

I agree with this, that Rhaegar went into this already defeated and knew. And we really don't know anything more than what we've been given. But Aerys is there and his plan had to shift somehow, so maybe it's not about him calling a great council, but gauging the lords' moods instead. Aerys is there, it's the first time he's been seen in years. 

We know from both Jaime's recollection of his last conversation with Rhaegar and Barristan's own thoughts that things went very wrong at Harrenhal. 

I think what the ransoming aspect does is that it puts two people in the same room. There doesn't even need to be a conspiracy or anything like that. The ransom puts two people who we believe never interacted, because it's not mentioned in the story, to maybe they did end up in the same room because Brandon had to get his things back. If they did interact, I doubt that went very well. 

About Tywin, my first thought about him is what does he want in return for supporting Rhaegar? For Cersei to be married to him? 

I agree, it just opens up the possibilities, to the extent that even the least sensational possibility I can think of (like a face to face Rhaegar/Brandon meeting before Lyanna's crowning) is exciting.

My personal opinion is that Rhaegar would have had to be able to offer Tywin more than he had had before he resigned as Hand. Making him Hand would just be restoring him to what he had already been. Releasing Jaime from his vows would just be restoring the heir that had been maliciously taken from him by the king.

I guess the question is whether Tywin would have been willing to agree (even with ulterior motives) to anything less than Rhaegar himself for Cersei (which I am not sure Rhaegar would have been able or willing to offer).

Jaime seems to think it plausible that Tywin would have been willing to settle for Viserys, while entertaining the idea that he was waiting for Elia to die in childbirth. Maybe he would have agreed to a match with Viserys, or to the first son Rhaegar produced (though that would have entailed agreeing to a son that didn't yet exist, and an exceptionally long wait for consummation and fulfillment once such a son did).

Then again, I get the impression that Tywin did not make Jaime privy to the extents of his one-track mind on Rhaegar as he did Cersei, and it may be that Jaime thinks he might have been willing to settle for Viserys as a result.

[PrettyPig]

54 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Do you think Rhaegar involve a Frey in anything, though? We know Rhaegar didn't place his trust in many people. He certainly didn't trust Barristan, someone he knew his entire life with his plans. I personally don't see him telling any Freys anything. Ditto House Haigh who are House Frey's bannermen.

Maybe he either needed Frey in his future plans and/or didn’t really have a choice but to bring them in the loop?

I mean, Robb certainly wasn’t jazzed about getting involved with them, but he needed the Twins/safe passage, soooo.....

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I think Tywin completely withdrew from any plans with Rhaegar after after Aerys named Jaime to the Kingsguard. 

Agree 100%

[Alexis-something-Rose]

21 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I agree, it just opens up the possibilities, to the extent that even the least sensational possibility I can think of (like a face to face Rhaegar/Brandon meeting before Lyanna's crowning) is exciting.

I know! It really is. And if a meeting like this happened, would POV character Jon Connington been present?

For me it has also opened up different possibilities for why Brandon went looking for Rhaegar and Lyanna in King's Landing even thought it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that he'd think would-be kidnapper took his would-be victim where she could easily be found. I've always hit a wall on this one, and maybe Brandon wasn't behaving as insanely as I originally thought he was.

[Lost Melnibonean]

35 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

The moment the joust is lost. Dunk at least went to settle his debt to the slug knight way before the tourney's end.

That said: I'm not sure if GRRM himself thought of that detail. Usually, it's important who unhorsed whom and who won, and what happens later re: horse and armor is rarely spared a thought. The author needed Rhaegar to be invincible that day, and for that he must needs have unhorsed Brandon Stark (and Ser Barristan the Bold, and the Sword of the Morning).

This. Presumably each of the two men would have been through such meetings at past tourneys, albeit not with each other. But in any event, I expect they would have just discussed ransoming the armor, unless Rhaegar was coup plotting despite his father's presence. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

4 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

@Widow's Watch made an excellent observation in the R+L=J v.165 thread about Brandon Stark's loss to Rhaegar Targaryen at the Harrenhal tourney that seems so obvious now, but which I had never even considered before.

As we are told in The Hedge Knight: "those vanquished in tourney forfeit their arms, armor, and horse to the victors, and must needs ransom them back." Therefore, we should expect Brandon to have had to go through the motions of forfeiting or ransoming his arms, armor, and horse to Rhaegar.

It seems likely that such a meeting between Brandon and Rhaegar would have occurred before Rhaegar's victory over Barristan Selmy, and thus before Rhaegar crowned Lyanna the queen of love and beauty and placed the crown of blue winter roses in the lap of Lyanna.

It also seems likely that their tilt and the forfeit/ransom meeting would have occurred after the Knight of the Laughing Tree defeated the three knights and ransomed their stuff back with the demand that they chastise their squires who had bullied Howland Reed.

What are your thoughts? Do you think Brandon went to Rhaegar to forfeit/ransom his stuff? What might Rhaegar have said or revealed about his knowledge of the identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree? Did this meeting contribute significantly to Brandon's reaction to Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna?

This seems to me to be a major scene that almost certainly must have occurred, but has sort of been hidden-in-plain-sight, as it hasn't been explicitly stated, but is implied by what we know about how tourneys work.

Tense.  There was already tension between the Targaryens and the Starks.  Rickards plan to tie his house to the Baratheon and the Tully's is so transparent for anyone.  It's obvious what that alliance would do.  It was a tense meeting and if Rhaegar had any balls he should have killed Brandon during the jousting.  King Aerys should have ambushed the Starks on the King's Road and made sure the jackal and his pups never made it back to Winter fell.

 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

5 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

That said: I'm not sure if GRRM himself thought of that detail. Usually, it's important who unhorsed whom and who won, and what happens later re: horse and armor is rarely spared a thought. The author needed Rhaegar to be invincible that day, and for that he must needs have unhorsed Brandon Stark (and Ser Barristan the Bold, and the Sword of the Morning).

I agree that GRRM needed Rhaegar to be invincible that day. But Jorah explains what happens when one loses a joust in Clash, Dany I. And I think that's relevant.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

11 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I don't recall if we have any example of a squire acting on behalf of a victor for the ransom. We have one case in The Mystery Knight where the loser, Lord Costayne, sends his squire to ransom his horse from the victor, Ser Glendon Ball. Other than that, I think the examples we have show the loser and victor working out the ransom themselves.

Hmmm. May be worth looking into more if you got a feeling bro

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Daemon II Blackfyre let all his vanquished opponents keep their stuff without them having to ransom it back when he was looking to overthrow the current King. Perhaps Rhaegar was just as generous at HH.

[Curled Finger]

I'm coming at this from just a slightly different perspective.  There is a whole bunch we don't know about people and their motives at Harrenhal.  I'm not even sure who was there at this point.   I spent 2 hours today pulling Sansa 2 Agot out of the search in hopes of finding correlations between The Hand's Tourney and Harrenhal.   

We got a taste of @Widow's Watch's excellent theory about the ransoms and I'm sold on it.  Of course I think the Tourney at Harrenhal was just a bunch of plots and conspiracies, too.   No one there was innocent, not even Howland Reed, coming straight from higher mystery studies on the Isle of Faces.  I think the suspicions in the The World Book are accurate and Rhaegar wanted an informal council that was downgraded to secret meetings, information by dance and testing waters when Aerys showed up.   Why did Aerys show up?   To thwart his treacherous son who did nothing but follow Aery's every command.   Still, these marriage alliances had to have reached the Iron Throne.   Why wouldn't Aerys work his own magic to thwart a bunch of high lords?  The newness of the idea of intermarriage between no less than 4 kingdoms of the realm had to be disconcerting at the very least.  He had to suspect Tywin was behind the entire plot making it actually 5 kingdoms involved in Aery's mind.   Aerys was so upset with Tywin that suspicion of his involvement may have been all Aerys needed to want to move against this North/Riverlands/Westerlands/Vale/Stormlands alliance.  Surely Varys wouldn't have allowed an opportunity to incite Aerys to show himself to the next generation of lords pass.  It was a wonderful idea and seems to have worked completely well to whatever Vary's end was.  So probably even more secret meetings.   

I think I told Widow's Watch the ransom meetings in Rhaegar's tent reminded me of Wyman Manderly's secret meetings at Winterfell.   I wonder how long she's been formulating this theory.  It's exciting and really pushes a reader to explore what they see and the fallible histories behind all events.