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The lie of a love story


lAPPYc

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On 13. 1. 2018 at 1:05 PM, lAPPYc said:

Selmy might have been pardoned, but every man's honor is different. As I said, it seemed to me that these three wouldn't bend the knee. They would prefer death rather than that option. But this debate only boils down to difference of opinion with no consequence on whether or not they told Lyanna that Ned was approaching. The Kingsguard is supposed to guard the king, and if they thought that Lyanna might give the babe to Ned(She might have mentioned that to them when they told her that Ned was coming and not Robert), they would have tried to stop Ned from going to her. The same would have been twice true if it was a rape-story, so... it doesn't give us anything on whether or not Rhaegar raped Lyanna.

True, but Ned's sadness (both in the dream and when he tells Bran about Arthur) indicates that he held the men in high esteem, he even names Arthur Dayne the finest knight (and definitely not just in the sense of being the bestest with sword). I doubt that he would think highly of them if they stood guard during Lyanna's rape - he refused to follow Robert's orders whne he thought them wrong, after all. 

On 13. 1. 2018 at 1:05 PM, lAPPYc said:

This still doesn't answer why Brandon went to the Red Keep, actually, for surely you agree that Rickard had to send the letters to the tower of Joy, 

Those are two different things here.

For one, we don't even know what Brandon thought he was doing - was he trying to free a kidnapped sister, or avenge a stain on the family honour? Because for a brother worried sick, '"come out and die" is not a priority I would expect. Brandon nearly came to blows with Rhaegar over Lyanna's crowning, so wanting Rhaegar's blood - his life, actually - might indicate the lines of "you will die for dishonouring my sister!", rather than worries that Lyanna might be harmed by Rhaegar.

- It is also funny that Cat says "when he heard about Lyanna", but never specifies what it was that Brandon heard. She says he acted rashly, and remembers how her father raged about Brandon's "gallant fool" act, which both tell us that Brandon was not supposed to do that.

As for Rickard's correspondence: if - IF - there was any secret agreement between him and Rhaegar, he couldn't reach Rhaegar at ToJ. First, he would need a raven from ToJ, and since it was a long-abandoned structure, there couldn't be any functional rookery. Second, there is a problem with timing - we don't know how long Rhaegar took to reach ToJ (and if it even was his original destination), so he may have been still travelling, i.e. couldn't be reached.

Also, the correspondence might have been only one-sided - Rhaegar did inform Rickard that he was making off with Lyanna, assured him that no harm would come to her and offered some nice terms and amends. Brandon either didn't know, or disagreed, and decided to take matters in his own hands.

On 13. 1. 2018 at 1:05 PM, lAPPYc said:

This was an illogical thing, which only means that Brandon didn't know of any plans that his father was making.

No. It's just one option. He could have known but disagreed and chose to disobey (wild wolf, used to having his way). He could have arrived at an incorrect conclusion. He could have acted on incorrect information, or on purposefully false information from someone who took advantage of a perfect opportunity to get House Targaryen in trouble - if he had to be restrained publically at HH, all it took was a misdirection that sent him to the place where his rashness would get him in serious trouble. Or any possible combination.

On 13. 1. 2018 at 1:05 PM, lAPPYc said:

this sort of unnecessary assumptions to lift the responsibility of mistakes from Rhaegar's shoulder and still keep the love story intact only shows that you cannot see past your faith and biases.

Lol, really? Says the one who stated his bias about not wanting a love story right away?

Just so you know, the version I like best is where Rhaegar acts like a guy who fell in love the first time in his life, head over heels, and fucked up big time. It happens all the time, unlike perfect princes. But we have so precious little information that other scenarios really shouldn't be ruled out just yet. The guy was supposed to be intelligent, could he really be so blinded by hormones that he stopped thinking entirely? Now, if the Starks knew that Lyanna left with Rhaegar of her own volition (what was she doing ten miles from HH, anyway?), they wouldn't think she was in danger, so no more further correspondence required, right?

 

On 13. 1. 2018 at 1:05 PM, lAPPYc said:

Apparently isolating yourself from the outside world and giving up all control, even communication with your friends like Jon Con in the Red Keep, wasn't careful enough.

Indeed. But we really lack the timeline.

On 13. 1. 2018 at 1:05 PM, lAPPYc said:

But let's say that Rhaegar couldn't foresee that, and that he convinced Rickard Stark that he couldn't bring his army/start a civil war with Aerys because the old man was on his way out anyway, and in a peaceful way, then you run into an even bigger problem. For if Rickard knew of Rhaegar's plans to remove Aerys, why then, while being cooked in his own armor, didn't he tell Aerys what Rhaegar had been planning, thereby giving Aerys an excuse to remove Rhaegar from the title of the Crown Prince and name Viserys his heir like he wanted to, and then telling him where he could find Rhaegar? He could have even pledged the forces of Winterfell behind Viserys should Rhaegar try to go against his father's order, thereby increasing his worth, and that of his daughter Lyanna's, in the eyes of the king?

That would require 1) Rickard knowing where Rhaegar was, and 2) Aerys willing to pardon Rickard for a treason he had just admitted.

On 13. 1. 2018 at 1:05 PM, lAPPYc said:

After a while though, you have to realize that your messages weren't being delivered, and you had to take a better look at the matter. Robert's Rebellion ranged on for about a year.

The fatal miscommunication, if such a thing happened, took place before the Rebellion, and Brandon's "treason" was a game changer, along with his and Rickard's execution. Those problems couldn't be solved by communication any longer.

On 13. 1. 2018 at 1:05 PM, lAPPYc said:

I meant by the time that the Starks joined the rebellion. Their army only joined with Robert's at the Battle of the Bells. Till then, Robert had smashed Gulltown, raised his banners at Storm's End, fought at Summerhall, was defeated by Randyll Tarly at Ashford, but more importantly, Brandon and Rickard had been dead for half a year(or more). I am sure that Lyanna would have pleaded her lover to aid her brother Ned, one who knew that she didn't love Robert, in unseating Aerys, or at least to send him the correspondence he had with Rickard Stark so he may stay out of this war and not die. I am sure that she would have said that a lot before actually. The only way that Rhaegar's inaction in not even trying to persuade the new lord of Winterfell of an alliance says that he was sure that Lyanna won't tell Ned that this was a sweet love story gone very, very wrong.

Yet another "only option". What about Robert? What if he refused this alliance? What would Ned do, side with his sister and Rhaegar against Robert? And do you really think that Ned would let Robert face the Targaryens on his own? And what would Ned's bannermen say if he told them they were backing out and had been fighting for nothing? A huge lot of very complex problems here which you tend to oversimplify.

On 13. 1. 2018 at 1:05 PM, lAPPYc said:

I really think, and many people seem to disagree with me, that, since Rhaegar wasn't a bad person, and knew that Lyanna liked blue roses, he brought them to her so that they might lessen her pain. Everybody tries to comfort a crying child/person, especially if you don't bear any malice toward them. And blue roses, were the way that Rhaegar tried to comfort Lyanna and make himself feel a little bit less wretched about himself. I don't know if the strategy had the desired effect on either of them. Maybe it finally worked on Lyanna, when she had the baby, she associated the blue roses with him, for the both of them were of Winterfell, and that's why her bed was full of blue roses. (Otherwise it were Rhaegar's orders to whoever was keeping the Tower of Joy to fill her bed full of blue roses every day).

Er, not a bed full of roses. She was holding some in her hand, and not fresh ("dead and black"). Holding onto something on your deathbed usually works as a literary device to show attachment.

On 13. 1. 2018 at 1:05 PM, lAPPYc said:

All the tidbits that do not support the rape version are just people thinking that Rhaegar wasn't the rapist type. And of course they would think that, because it was true.

Wait a sec - he wasn't a rapist type but he did rape her? What do you mean?

On 13. 1. 2018 at 1:05 PM, lAPPYc said:

Ned's thinking, as I explained, could be because he believed Lyanna's tale of a love story. Barristan Selmy says that Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna, not that she loved him back.(He doesn't even think about the rape, not confirming, nor denying it).

His lady Lyanna. That does hint at something.

On 13. 1. 2018 at 1:05 PM, lAPPYc said:

But Rhaegar not being a rapist has no bearing upon whether or not he would rape Lyanna, for he did that for the realm. And all the things that you said point to love, I have from the start saw them as hinting at duty.

And how does the HotU vision of Rhaegar whispering Lyanna's name point at duty? His duty and main concern would be the baby, not Lyanna.

On 13. 1. 2018 at 1:05 PM, lAPPYc said:

And what are ambitions, your beliefs, your sense of duty, but your first love?

I believe GRRM establishes the conflict of love and duty in the primary sense of the word.

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I think Rhaegar and Lyanna falling in love first and foremost is more plausible than some calculated plan or even prophecy. Even the HOTU vision would be after Harrenhal, where they already would have fallen, and any prophecy spin by Rhaegar would be after the fact. I don't see why people resist the idea that it was love. It's not like it had a happy ending. It had terrible consequences. They both died within two years of Harrenhal, much of their families were murdered, and even the rebels that overthrew the Targaryens are all dead via murder and war amongst themselves. Westeros is more weakened than it has been in a long time, not just the royal family, but almost every family of note. That is not all Rhaegar's and Lyanna's fault. But if they were in love and ran off, it did not have some happy ending for them and their families. If it appears to start with a cliché, it does not follow through on it. People fall in love all the time. And since these two did not truly have freedom to, there were great consequences.

 

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10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Lol, really? Says the one who stated his bias about not wanting a love story right away?

It was not right away, I stated what I wanted after the entire essay.(And I acknowledged my bias when I spoke about yours). You, on the other hand, want Brandon to make an illogical mistake when there would be another, perfectly possible option, where he just wanted to kill his sister's rapist, an option which doesn't discredit your theory at all.

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

(what was she doing ten miles from HH, anyway?),

She could have gone riding, hawking, to meet with her lover, any number of things.

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Also, the correspondence might have been only one-sided - Rhaegar did inform Rickard that he was making off with Lyanna, assured him that no harm would come to her and offered some nice terms and amends.

But according to you, Rickard wanted Rhaegar to not make it public knowledge. That needs communication.

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

First, he would need a raven from ToJ,

That is not true. Runners, couriers, messengers, all these are trained to travel fast between places. In the time of peace and when people were holding weddings, they wouldn't be in much danger either. They could always mask the messages as wedding invitations.

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

The fatal miscommunication, if such a thing happened, took place before the Rebellion, and Brandon's "treason" was a game changer, along with his and Rickard's execution. Those problems couldn't be solved by communication any longer.

They could have tried. All this:-

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Aerys willing to pardon Rickard for a treason he had just admitted.

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

What about Robert?

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

What if he refused this alliance?

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

What would Ned do, side with his sister and Rhaegar against Robert?

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

And do you really think that Ned would let Robert face the Targaryens on his own?

are things that you could ask in hindsight, but at the time when this was actually happening, all these were the questions that they could have at least asked each other. When he was being cooked in his armor, knowing that there was a fued between Rhaegar and Aerys, would Rickard not try to take advantage of it? What was the worst that would happen if Aerys refused the deal? Rickard would die? He was doing that already. There was nothing to lose by asking. Just like there was nothing to lose for Rhaegar by contacting Jon Arryn/Ned Stark and showing him the correspondence between him and Rickard and give his word of support in a war against his father? What was the worst that could have happened? Winterfell and the Eyrie would have refused his offer and raised against the Targaryens? That was already happening.

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he fatal miscommunication, if such a thing happened, took place before the Rebellion, and Brandon's "treason" was a game changer, along with his and Rickard's execution. Those problems couldn't be solved by communication any longer.

There was the whole of the rebellion to make an alliance against Aerys, the guy who actually killed Rickard Stark.

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

And what would Ned's bannermen say if he told them they were backing out and had been fighting for nothing?

Ned will tell his bannermen that their main target was Aerys, you know, the guy that killed the Lord of Winterfell? I am not saying that he would have told them this, I am saying that Rhaegar had nothing holding him back from writing to Ned, not if him and Lyanna were in love.

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:
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I really think, and many people seem to disagree with me, that, since Rhaegar wasn't a bad person, and knew that Lyanna liked blue roses, he brought them to her so that they might lessen her pain. Everybody tries to comfort a crying child/person, especially if you don't bear any malice toward them. And blue roses, were the way that Rhaegar tried to comfort Lyanna and make himself feel a little bit less wretched about himself. I don't know if the strategy had the desired effect on either of them. Maybe it finally worked on Lyanna, when she had the baby, she associated the blue roses with him, for the both of them were of Winterfell, and that's why her bed was full of blue roses. (Otherwise it were Rhaegar's orders to whoever was keeping the Tower of Joy to fill her bed full of blue roses every day).

Er, not a bed full of roses. She was holding some in her hand, and not fresh ("dead and black"). Holding onto something on your deathbed usually works as a literary device to show attachment.

So Rhaegar's plan of lessening her pain worked. She found some solace in the flowers!

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Wait a sec - he wasn't a rapist type but he did rape her? What do you mean?

Okay, now I hope your are being sarcastic. Because if you still don't know what I mean, there is something very wrong with my writing(come to thing of it, that would actually explain why nobody likes my fanfic). What I mean is that he wasn't the rapist type, but when Lyanna refused to marry him/carry his child, he

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was pressed by the necessity to impregnate Lyanna Stark to save the world

and so abducted her and rape her till she became pregnant. This is what I have been saying from the start.

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His lady Lyanna. That does hint at something.

All that hints at is that Ser Barristan thought that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. What would you think, after seeing that spectacle at the Tourney of Harrenhal(I already know what you think). In this series where every character is an unreliable narrator, I wouldn't put much faith in their feelings.

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True, but Ned's sadness (both in the dream and when he tells Bran about Arthur) indicates that he held the men in high esteem, he even names Arthur Dayne the finest knight (and definitely not just in the sense of being the bestest with sword).

Varys was sad when he killed Ser Kevan(as much sadness as he could practice at least). "There are many like you, good men in service of bad causes". To Ned, they were just knights that were following their orders. Knowing Ned's honor, of course he will think of them as honorable.

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I doubt that he would think highly of them if they stood guard during Lyanna's rape

I have already conceded that Ned could have believed Lyanna's story of the love story.

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And how does the HotU vision of Rhaegar whispering Lyanna's name point at duty? His duty and main concern would be the baby, not Lyanna.

We are never told that it was Lyanna's name he was whispering. What the vision is:

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Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name

It could very well be his mother's name, or his daughter's name, or of the camp follower he had met last night. Or it could be Elia's name, because he is apologizing for failing in his duty as a husband and was leaving her to the protection of his mad father. There is no reason for us to believe that it was Lyanna's name he was taking.

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3 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

So Rhaegar's plan of lessening her pain worked. She found some solace in the flowers!

A bed of roses?  When I read stuff like this, the less seriously I take it.  It's fantasy and rationalizing fantasy with more fantasy.  You can't argue with someone's fantasy.

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I feel Rhaegar and Lyanna was a love story - atleast by the time they concieved Jon until the end. I wouldn't really bet it was love at the time of Harrenhal or the kidnapping though. Sure it'll end up like some Shakesperean tragic love story, but its not like you need to like that. Plenty of other GRRM love stories are Shakespearen types to, and he makes them out to be the best love stories ever - for example Drogo and Dany. It started with her being forcefully wed to him, and raped for a time afterwards, but they eventually come to fall in love. So not your exact fairy tale love story, and not many readers like it either - but we choose to accept it for the sake of the story, and for Dany's character in general. That's probably what will happen with Rhaegar and Lyanna - the outcome of it will be the most saddest, tragic love story ever told in ASOIAF (based on what info we already have and coz of GRRM's well known weird story fetishes). And so what if no one likes this version? Readers really have a hard time seperating bias and likes from just accepting a characters personality or storyline, and this really affects the readers outlook in general I feel.

About why Rhaegar didn't take Lyanna to Kings Landing or Dragonstone or any other castle: well he couldn't. A castle is where people can talk and find out info from. Rhaegar would have wanted Lyanna to stay hidden, so neither Robert nor Aerys can find her. He should take her to an isolated place with harder access where a). Neither the loyalists nor the rebels can find her to use as a political tool and b). Where Lyanna's pregnancy can stay unknown and hidden from everyone...until Rhaegar removes both obstacles (Robert at the trident and Aerys from the throne) so Lyanna can safely come out with a baby that does not get killed. 

But ofcourse several things went wrong with this: someone must have got wind of Rhaegar being the one to disappear with Lyanna and told Brandon about it, Brandon stormed into the red keep committing treason and Aerys killed both Brandon and Rickard. Which just reaffirms the point that the war was never about Lyanna - even if she comes out and says she's alive and well to her family, Brandon will still storm to the red keep and commit treason. No one would have cared what dear Lyanna wanted. Overall, a war was happening even if Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't disappear...because Westeros was just waiting to explode with Aerys as the unexploded bomb.

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15 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

It could very well be his mother's name, or his daughter's name, or of the camp follower he had met last night. Or it could be Elia's name, because he is apologizing for failing in his duty as a husband and was leaving her to the protection of his mad father. There is no reason for us to believe that it was Lyanna's name he was taking.

Even though the war is framed (by the characters) as being about Lyanna and Rhaegar? It doesn't make thematic sense for Rhaegar to be whispering any other person's name with his literal last breath. Unless you think GRRM is planning to write a subplot about how some random camp follower became bffs with Rhaegar or something.

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On 1/12/2018 at 5:06 AM, LynnS said:

I can't get past the notion that the Tower of Joy was the place where Lyanna gave birth the Jon.  Ned, Howland and few horses are able to pull the thing down.  So it seems more a broken ruin constructed in the manner of Irish round towers.  No space for a bed.  Ned says 'they' found him with her.  Where are all these people at the Tower of Joy?  A room that smells of blood and roses suggests that Lyanna was bathed in rosewater rather than a room full of roses.

Rhaegar is either the best of princes, in which case I question his morality in kidnapping Lyanna for whatever reason; or he isn't the shining prince he's been made out to be. 

Jon may well turn out to be a king - the King of Winter, the King in the North, the King Beyond the Wall - but that doesn't make him a Targaryen.

Put the picture in! 

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On 1/14/2018 at 6:55 PM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Elia might have loved Rhaegar, Lyanna most likely loved Rhaegar, but their love for Rhaegar combined wouldn't equal to the love Jon Connington had for his silver prince. Jon Con's love for Rhaegar was unconditional. 

hehehehehehe  oh priceless, Ralphis! 

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Ok, @lAPPYc, I'm pretty sure I posted in your other thread.  I will take a chance and try here as well because we assume an awful lot about this thing we just really don't know much at all about.  I'm not sure what a Rhaegastan is, but I hope I'm not one. 

Your argument makes sense from the point of view you take.   I'm not here to take anything from that.  If that's the way it was then right on.   However, I got to thinking how no one but Robert really bad mouthed Rhaegar.  His friends were deeply loyal.  He hid Lyanna.  That's where I trip up.  What was he hiding her from?  Aerys.   Yep, Aerys was ticked off about the public crowning of this snotty little Northern trollop in front of the world including his wife.   I don't think Elia was upset.   I think Aerys was.   Now I ask you to think back to Aerys' reaction to the Mystery Knight at Harrenhal.   He decided this interloper was no friend of his.   WTH?  The knight had nothing to do with him.   It was obvious to anyone who saw the ransoms what the Mystery Knight was doing.  This little dude kicked Knights No Bodies' butts and Aerys flipped out.   He demands this little anonymous dude be caught and brought to him.  He's cool with monster dudes Robert and Richard to beat little guy up. Then his dumbass son publicly humiliates him like this???  He chose Elia for his son, dammit all.  Oh yeah, I bet that was a miserable ride home.   

How about Rhaegar rescued Lyanna from his dad's retribution for the public humiliation and that's why he had to really hide her?   How about Elia bought into the prophecies as much as Rhaegar did and the pact of Ice and Fire plays a big part in the prophecy?  They are holed up in this ramshackle tower where there was only enough room to hold each other upright to have a conversation and Lyanna discovers Rhaegar is happy to see her?   

For all you non-believers about the Tower of Joy, LynnS has a couple of great real world pics of what this tiny watch tower would have looked like.  

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13 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:
On 15/1/2018 at 1:41 PM, lAPPYc said:

It could very well be his mother's name, or his daughter's name, or of the camp follower he had met last night. Or it could be Elia's name, because he is apologizing for failing in his duty as a husband and was leaving her to the protection of his mad father. There is no reason for us to believe that it was Lyanna's name he was taking.

Even though the war is framed (by the characters) as being about Lyanna and Rhaegar? It doesn't make thematic sense for Rhaegar to be whispering any other person's name with his literal last breath. Unless you think GRRM is planning to write a subplot about how some random camp follower became bffs with Rhaegar or something.

You didn't think that I was saying the bit about the camp follower seriously, right? It's obvious that Rhaegar whispered Khal Drogo's name, who was winking at him throughout the battle from below the surface of the trident.

Okay, that was very bad. I was saying that we don't know that I think that the whispered name could be either of Lyanna or Elia. That said, I wouldn't really mind reading the subplot about the camp follower. Maybe she was Shae's mother.

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@Curled Finger, you'll have to try very hard to sell to me that Elia was completely okay with being publicly humiliated at the greatest tourney of the time, and would have settled for being the 'discarded' wife, at least in the eyes of westeros, or that she *cringe* encouraged this tryst of her husband and Lyanna. When you say 'How about it?', I will say sure, it will lessen the pain level of the world. But if you ask me if this is probable, I would tell you that it sounds as fantastical as the tower @LynnS has problems with. But since Elia's consent/encouragement/reproaches don't really matter or explain anything that we are missing, I will refrain from writing my objections.

And about that tower, what's the problem there? I don't understand. We don't know that Ned and Howland pulled it down with a few horses. Ned would have called men from his main party from Storm's End to pull down the tower and build the graves for his companions.

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A room that smells of blood and roses suggests that Lyanna was bathed in rosewater rather than a room full of roses.

A rotting flower or fruit has a sharper smell than normal. If they hadn't been replaced recently, or there were some old ones fallen below the bed that hadn't yet been cleaned away, the room will smell of them. He doesn't even say that it's a very thick smell.

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Where are all these people at the Tower of Joy?

Well, they were waiting outside the room while the Lord of Winterfell met with his dying sister. Why is this a question? Ned, as you yourself point out @LynnS, says that

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'they' found him with her.

so 'they' had to be the people who had already been at the Tower of Joy before Eddard Stark arrived, plus Howland Reed. If the tower had been empty, it would have only been Howland Reed and Ned would have said that 'he' found him with her.

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Then his dumbass son publicly humiliates him like this??? 

Aerys got mad at the KotLT, but if you are drawing parallels between his being angry at KotLT and at Lyanna, you may remember that he didn't give a fig about the KotLT by the next day. There was about a year for him to forget about Lyanna.

Now I am not saying that he wouldn't remembered her when he heard that Lyanna was in the riverlands for her brother's wedding. But unlike in the case of KotLT, about whom, like, nobody cared, people would have warned Aerys not to retaliate against Lyanna. At the Tourney of Harrenhal, when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna, someone like Varys, or any other lickspittle on Aerys' side against his son, would have pointed out, like I said in the OP, that Rhaegar had just potentially made enemies of Winterfell and Storm's End. That's a great thing for Aerys.

But let's say that a year later, Aerys just had to have his revenge. But if Rhaegar learned of his plans, why didn't he take Lyanna back to her father?

But taking her to her father would have made Aerys suspicious as to why suddenly Rhaegar was at Riverrun/with Rickard Stark. So maybe he didn't have to go with her. He could have sent her with added guards, dressed as common guardsmen, but increasing the quantity of her guard so much that the group Aerys had sent on her would be deterred. And with Lyanna, Rhaegar could have sent a letter to her father saying that "Hey, like... I just saved your daughter's life. Keep her in constant watch, my father's got his eyes on her. Maybe if she had a husband he won't touch, she would finally be safe. Maybe a husband like... ME? My wife is completely fine with it, and... fuck the faith, you are of the North anyway. So what do you say?"

But maybe he was afraid that if he sent Lyanna back to her father, Rickard might say no, and Lyanna will slip from his fingers forever. So that's why he hid her himself. But that still doesn't tell us why he didn't contact Rickard afterwards. He could have even given him some proof of the King's intentions now, if Aerys was really trying to harm Lyanna.

About the pact of Ice and Fire, it was about a royal princess marrying into the Stark's, not about a bride from Winterfell. It was a pact made by a bastard anyway, so maybe that's why Jon Snow was a bastard and died breaking my heart, just like Jace. Poor things, we will never see the likes of them again...

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On 1/12/2018 at 8:06 AM, LynnS said:

I can't get past the notion that the Tower of Joy was the place where Lyanna gave birth the Jon.  Ned, Howland and few horses are able to pull the thing down.  So it seems more a broken ruin constructed in the manner of Irish round towers.  No space for a bed.  

I hope you don't take this the wrong way but I think it's easy to get past the notion that the tower might be bigger than an Irish round tower. There's a Wall that's 700 feet tall, ice zombies, skinchangers, a man who is hooked up to trees like it's serum, giants, children of the forest who can live for centuries, a girl who stepped into a funeral pyre and came out unharmed with dragons clinging to her, people who can change faces, a castle that moves. A woman giving birth in a tower doesn't register on the scale of belief "suspending". 

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I do believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna were indeed in love with each other, and that Lyanna went willingly to the TOJ, but the way that the both of them handled their affair is just monumentally dumb.

To put it short: Rhaegar had already done one (I'll be very mild and say) controversial decision to disregard societal norms and crown Lyanna as QOLAB in quite a public manner. This provoked a reaction from lot of powerful people: Robert and Martells were unhappy, "all the smiles died" and Brandon had to be restrained from physically confronting Rhaegar. WIth that in mind, Rheagar chooses to act even much more "controversially" and elope with Lyanna to a hidden location (aka TOJ).

Now, even if R and L couldn't foresee that their elopement will lead to a civil war, they must have known that some kind of massive political shitstorm is bound to happen. And yet they choose to put themselves in a position where's they're basically out of the loop and unable to react to whatever important events will happen. In a few months he was away, Rhaegar apparently didn't concern himself with such a trifling matter as mending the rift between powerful angry nobles and his mad father, he instead dedicated himself to 3HD prophecy (which ironically failed because of war that R chose to ignore). That's not just uncaring for the realm, that's also stupid and irresponsible, especially for a crown prince.

And let's even assume best case scenario: R and L marry, Dorne is for some reason ok with that and little Jon is raised alongside Aegon and Rhaenys. Hmm, I wonder where have we seen a situation like this before. Oh, I know, with Viserys I and so called "Dance of the Dragons", where the war half-brother and half-sister desolated the realm. But, Rheagar was noted as a fine scholar - so surely he would not have been so stupid to recreate the same circumstances? Surely?

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56 minutes ago, lAPPYc said:

And about that tower, what's the problem there? I don't understand. We don't know that Ned and Howland pulled it down with a few horses. Ned would have called men from his main party from Storm's End to pull down the tower and build the graves for his companions.

But he doesn't say that.  He says that he and Howland tore it down and built cairns out of it. GRRM says that only two walked away from the tower.  One assumes they had horses to help pull it down.  Ned tells us it is a round tower.  If is as easy to pull down as all that; then it fits the description of an Irish round tower.  We even have a description of such a tower in Arya's POV.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_round_tower#/media/File:WalArdm.jpg

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1 hour ago, lAPPYc said:

so 'they' had to be the people who had already been at the Tower of Joy before Eddard Stark arrived, plus Howland Reed. If the tower had been empty, it would have only been Howland Reed and Ned would have said that 'he' found him with her.

It is more likely that Lyanna was found somewhere else, rather than in the middle of nowhere.  The room smelled of blood and roses.  It's likely that she was bathed in rosewater to clean up the blood.

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56 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I hope you don't take this the wrong way but I think it's easy to get past the notion that the tower might be bigger than an Irish round tower. There's a Wall that's 700 feet tall, ice zombies, skinchangers, a man who is hooked up to trees like it's serum, giants, children of the forest who can live for centuries, a girl who stepped into a funeral pyre and came out unharmed with dragons clinging to her, people who can change faces, a castle that moves. A woman giving birth in a tower doesn't register on the scale of belief "suspending". 

@Widow's Watch

Especially when the books are full of towers that anywhere from a handful to dozens of people are able to live or take refuge. Jon Snow and later wildling women stay at Hardin's Tower. Lord Commander Mormont stays at Lord Commander's Tower. Tyrion, Mormont, and Stannis all stay at King's Tower at some point. The crumbling Lance hosts men from the Shadow Tower. Sansa, as Alayne, stays in the Maiden's Tower. House Karstark takes up residence in Drunkard's Tower, which is later garrisoned by over a dozen Iron Born. Bran and his entourage take refuge in Tumbledown Tower. Robb takes up residence at Gatehouse Tower, which is later garrisoned by dozens of Iron Born. House Umber takes up residence in Children's Tower, which is later garrisoned by some number of Iron Born. There is the White Sword Tower of the Kingsguard, the Tower of the Hand, the broken tower in Winterfell, the Tower of the Sun, and Spear Tower. Pretty much, if there is a tower in the books, it has or does house people. Some of these are no doubt significantly larger than others, some no doubt smaller, but there is no basis for the idea that the TOJ was too small to house a pregnant woman and some attendants just because Ned is said to have pulled the tower down afterwards and use its stones to to build eight cairns on the ridge.

 

 

 

 

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