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lAPPYc

The People Vs. Sansa Stark. Exhibit A: Lyanna Stark

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15 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I have met females who exhibit some of the traits of Martin’s characters. I myself on occasion have been selfish and self centered. To deny that females can be petty, vicious and vindictive is foolish

Is the anything inherently female about any of those characteristics though? We don't have to go into a discussion about it, but your words were sexist. Poorly chosen, at best. It's ok, we live in a very sexist society and slip into such offenses often without even realizing. The first step is to acknowledge it and try not to make the same mistake again. I hope you can do that :) 

Edited by Lady Dacey

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5 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I was using satire to mock “hate” threads. If you look at my words you quoted I said, “I do not agree that either of them are the worst characters in the series.”

Yet you poured scorn on them. And with the loathing at times expressed against both Catelyn and Sansa its not hard to see this is an essential fig leaf.

5 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

If you want an explanation of my words,” dark side of the female essence,” I’ll give you one. In my life experience I have met females who exhibit some of the traits of Martin’s characters. I myself on occasion have been selfish and self centered. To deny that females can be petty, vicious and vindictive is foolish, but you will note that I didn’t say Cat or Sansa exhibited those traits, did I.

And pray tell me how is this specifically female as opposed to human? You do say that they "portray" this "dark side of the female essence" and lists attributes like selfish among the traits of the "dark female essence". Thus you are arguing that Sansa and Catelyn are selfish and self-centered.

5 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I would be interested in reading your response to the original post. Thanks

If I get around to it, you will likely be able to.

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13 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Yet you poured scorn on them. And with the loathing at times expressed against both Catelyn and Sansa its not hard to see this is an essential fig leaf.

nope, nope I poured no scorn on Cat or Sansa.

This thread is short so it is not difficult to navigate.

The opening post said:

21 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

People hate Sansa Stark, it is no secret.

They hate the way she thinks, about Jon, or just about people in general.

They hate how naive(dumb, they call it) she is.

They say that she has proven time and again that she is not a Stark and condemn her as a Tully(Yes, that's apparently a condemnation, and it means 'stupid like Catelyn')

They say her priorities are selfish, and she is the worst character in the series.

They say that she went against her father's teaching and lied to Robert, and that made as non-Stark as possible, and the gods proved it when they took away Lady.

They hate because she went to Cersei and spilled her father's plans.

But...

These same people celebrate Lyanna running off with Rhaegar - her one true love like Joffrey was for Sansa at a time - and going against her father's wishes to marry him.

Am I missing something here? How does this work? Is this because Lyanna's mother's maiden name was Stark? Or have I found the best way to differentiate between haters and critics?

I replied:

17 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

@LynnS you may be interested in this freedom to express the personal opinion in a forum.

I would ask the same question @Lady Dacey asked. Who is they?

The twitterverse and facebookverse and the other social media outlets need to reign in that “hate” shite.

Sansa is a fictional character in a fictional book. She is a child with childish ideas.

She is a child so yes, Sansa is naïve and was until Eddard took her to KL she was much protected and believed her fairy tales.

She is a child so yes, Sansa is naïve and was until Eddard took her to KL she was much protected and believed her fairy tales.

Both Cat and her darling Sansa are selfish and a bit self centered. I do not agree that either of them are the worst characters in the series. The book character Ms. Stark and her daughter merely portray the dark side of the female essence.

Yes little Sansa  a 11/12 year old girl afeard of being separated from her prince spilled the beans.

 

As to the But...  a wrench does not fit every nut.  Whatcha think @LynnS is the OP being sincere? Was I amiable enough?
 

 

 

The discussion in a different thread goes like this

 

Poster !: Nobody has any obligation to humor interpretations or arguments that have absolutely no basis in the text. You are within your right to post such things, however baseless, and others are well within their right to point out how baseless they are.

Poster 2: Yes, all kinds of baseless things have been posted including assumptions about RLJ. However, there is an obligation for civil discourse. The ability to treat other members with respect is the issue, not whether or not you think something is baseless.

  •  

 

 

I would suggest you slow your roll and back off my bumper. Happy Friday. :cheers:

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1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I would suggest you slow your roll and back off my bumper. Happy Friday. :cheers:

No, I think I won't. But happy Friday!

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1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

No, I think I won't. But happy Friday!

Garsh dangit dude/dudette don’t you know I am old as Nan. I’m trying to play Harry Potter on Xbox 360 and you keep popping up trying to argue with me about sumthin’ I dinna say. Bejesus.  Har!

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On 1/11/2018 at 10:07 PM, lAPPYc said:

People hate Sansa Stark, it is no secret.

They hate the way she thinks, about Jon, or just about people in general.

They hate how naive(dumb, they call it) she is.

They say that she has proven time and again that she is not a Stark and condemn her as a Tully(Yes, that's apparently a condemnation, and it means 'stupid like Catelyn')

They say her priorities are selfish, and she is the worst character in the series.

They say that she went against her father's teaching and lied to Robert, and that made as non-Stark as possible, and the gods proved it when they took away Lady.

They hate because she went to Cersei and spilled her father's plans.

But...

These same people celebrate Lyanna running off with Rhaegar - her one true love like Joffrey was for Sansa at a time - and going against her father's wishes to marry him.

Am I missing something here? How does this work? Is this because Lyanna's mother's maiden name was Stark? Or have I found the best way to differentiate between haters and critics?


 1. We still don't know what really happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna. For all we know George might surprise us in the future books and reveal to us that Rhaegar was a villain who really did kidnap Lyanna Stark and raped her. 
2. What if Rhaegar was so obsessed with the Azor Ahai prophecy that he decided that the only way to save the world is to kidnap Lyanna, force her to have his child ( a nice way of saying: he raped her ) and then died while fighting Robert still thinking he was saving the world.
3. What if, and this is just a crazy theory i have... what if Lyanna was a.... WHORE! A Highborn slut who didn't like Bobby and wanted to ride a Dragon, so she ran away with this feminine "stud" so that she could fu... i mean, make sweet love to him because she was in heat, i mean... in love. So who cares if thousands died because of what Rhaegar and Lyanna did... they were in love! 

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Back to the original question... I think it’s hard to really get down to Lyanna’s character since we’re given so little information about her, but I think it’s safe to assume that she was much more mature and had a better idea of what she was doing than Sansa.  Now, you can say this makes her worse, but in my opinion, it makes her stronger.  Yes, she broke up the marriage of Rhaegar and Elia, but perhaps we aren’t aware of what she was privy to during her conversations with Rhaegar about the future of Westeros, I’m talking of course about the Prince that was Promised prophecy.  Perhaps she fell in love and understood it was her duty to bear Aegon Targaryen, TPtwP.  I’ll also note that Leanna is a moral person, Rhaegar as well.  Compared to them, Sansa really is just a silly little girl who has been alienated and cast aside as a true Stark child. 

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2 hours ago, TheKingInTheNorth3 said:

I think it’s hard to really get down to Lyanna’s character since we’re given so little information about her,

and

2 hours ago, TheKingInTheNorth3 said:

but I think it’s safe to assume that she was much more mature and had a better idea of what she was doing than Sansa.

I don't think that these two sentences are compatible. We really aren't given much information about what Lyanna was thinking as Rhaegar took her to the Tower of Joy(consensual taking or otherwise), so it is no safe to assume that she was a girl mature in prophecy.

I would like to draw your attention to my other post The lie of a love story.

2 hours ago, TheKingInTheNorth3 said:

Compared to them, Sansa really is just a silly little girl who has been alienated and cast aside as a true Stark child. 

What exactly is a true Stark child?

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Sansa is a self taught liar and potential schemer. 

I don't like late Sansa's POV but that's not the reason for it. It is mainly because the morph, from a dreamy and deluded northern girl into a badass Barbrey Dustin like character, is moving way too slow so she's fallen into a repetitive loop of verbal hiccups. 

Her POV for me have become physically tiring to read.

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I can't stand Sansa.  She's such a twit.  I don't think Lyanna was a twit but rather a highly irresponsible and very thoughtless person who thinks only of self-gratification.  I don't support R+L=J but it was still thoughtless of Lyanna to run away from Robert.  Inconsiderate.  So yeah they have that in common.  Lyanna is more of a tomboy like Arya.  All three girls are their own worst enemy.  Real screwups if you ask me.  I really can't stand Sansa out of the three. 

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Sansa's one of those characters that grows on you over time. She did seem rather out of place among the other Stark children as a pampered little princess, and she gave a terrible first impression by lying about Arya and Joffrey at the Ruby Ford and later betraying Ned to Cersei. But yes, she did both of those things because of her perceived love for Joffrey. Certainly she's realized the depths of her mistakes and learned from them somewhat as she's gone on. As an aside, I think her character story would've been much more interesting had she been fully devoted to Joffrey and his family, but Joffrey being Joffrey made that impossible. She's a lot like Jaime in that she gives a terrible first impression, but then works to overcome that. And like Jaime, there's some fans that can't overcome that first impression.

Lyanna now, is really a different creature from what we know. A more sympathetic character as she seems less snobbish and more willing to stand up for the little people and fight the good fight. In light she gives a good impression before she does something mind numbingly dumb and starting a war because of how she handled her romance.

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