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Do you see the red God becoming popular in Westeroes?

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42 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

@Lucius Lovejoy there's another thread about religion happen right now I think you'd enjoy! It's about R'hollorism and the Others.

Thanks @Lady Dacey - I threw my 2 cents in early on that thread and haven't checked back.  I will look back at it and see where the conversation has went.

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I don't see it becoming popular, save for port cities. The issue for me with the Red God is that it is more like a sect, guarded by priests who are very secretive with their liturgies. The faith of the seven is a more practical religion, in which a peasant, a knight and a lord can fit all the same, since you actually pick the aspect of the god you wish to worship and that's linked to your everyday life. The Red God and its apocalyptic struggle it's just too abstract for the westerosi folk.

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Dany's vision in the House of Undying probably proves my theory, that Rhaego will unite both religions, ACOK, Dany IV:

Quote

A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him.

She saw grown up Rhaego in her vision, after Rhaego's birth, AGOT, Dany IX:

Quote

Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo’s copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds.

Tall, with copper skin and silver-gold hair, proud = lord.

So the lord from the vision in House of Undying is also a Rhaego. Because are there a lot of people in ASOIAF, that have copper skin and silver-gold hair, and whose banner could be FIERY STALLION?

Fiery Stallion from Rhaego's banner is a combination of symbols from both religions - followers of R'hllor (fire) and Dothraki's religion (stallion).

Seems that fiery stallion will be Rhaego's sigil, and symbol of new religion. And maybe he will be like christian crusaders, that went to other countries and fought there, supposedly to enlighten barbarians and bring them faith, but their real intentions were to seize control over those people and places. Crusaders were warriors, not peacefull preachers. Thus - the burning city in Dany's vision, where Rhaego is with banner that symbolizes his faith, is a place of Rhaego's crusade.

So in span of two books Dany had two visions of grown up Rhaego.

Also based on sequence of Dany's vision in House of Undying, that vision with lord beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, is a vision of a future. Dany sees three visions, and then again three more visions, and after that three more. ACOK, Dany IV:

Quote

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo.

1.1. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth.

1.2. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him.

1.3. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name. . . .

mother of dragons, daughter of death . . .

2.1. Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

2.2. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.

2.3. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.

. . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . .

3.1. Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars.

3.2. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly.

3.3. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

. . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

Based on this sequences -

  • first visions depicts recent events:

1.1. death of Viserys,

2.1. demonstration by Stannis of his magic sword at Dragonstone,

3.1. Dany in Vaes Dothrak going to bath after eating stallion's heart (or maybe it's a vision from her wedding night);

  • second vision is from the future:

1.2. grown up Rhaego,

2.2. Mummers Dragon,

3.2. dead Ironborn, who is probably Theon;

  • third vision is from the past:

1.3. Rhaegar's death,

2.3. (don't know what could be this one, but based on two others, this one also should be from the past, the only clue is that it happened before Melisandre gave red sword to Stannis),

3.3. Blue flower on The Wall (either Jon becoming Lord Commander, or arriving to The Wall.)

Thus chronological order of those visions - third, first, second.

And if those events are placed in correct order, then there is seen a pattern in them:

- Rhaegar's death, Viserys' death, future of Rhaego - Targaryens;

- a beast from smoking tower, red sword of Stannis, Mummers dragon - false things or fakes;

- blue flower on The Wall (probably Jon Snow), Dany in Dothraki Sea, dead man on a ship - ?

So we have Jon and Dany, and some unknown man. Probably it's not Theon, or one of Ironborn, probably this man is somehow connected to either love, or a prophecy about three dragon heads. Three visions from first two sequences had obvious connection between them - dragon blood in first, and a lie in the second. So there must be something like that, that connects together Jon/blue flower, Dany, and this third man.

Also could be that the scene with red sword is not from Dragonstone, when Melisandre just gave that sword to Stannis, that scene could be from The Wall, when Stannis defeated Mance. So the beast and smoking tower could be burning of Winterfell, death of Tywin and burning of Hand's Tower, burning of Summerhall, maybe burning of Tower of Joy, etc.

Edited by Megorova

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Dany's vision in the House of Undying probably proves my theory, that Rhaego will unite both religions, ACOK, Dany IV:

She saw grown up Rhaego in her vision, after Rhaego's birth, AGOT, Dany IX:

Tall, with copper skin and silver-gold hair, proud = lord.

So the lord from the vision in House of Undying is also a Rhaego. Because are there a lot of people in ASOIAF, that have copper skin and silver-gold hair, and whose banner could be FIERY STALLION?

Fiery Stallion from Rhaego's banner is a combination of symbols from both religions - followers of R'hllor (fire) and Dothraki's religion (stallion).

Seems that fiery stallion will be Rhaego's sigil, and symbol of new religion. And maybe he will be like christian crusaders, that went to other countries and fought there, supposedly to enlighten barbarians and bring them faith, but their real intentions were to seize control over those people and places. Crusaders were warriors, not peacefull preachers. Thus - the burning city in Dany's vision, where Rhaego is with banner that symbolizes his faith, is a place of Rhaego's crusade.

So in span of two books Dany had two visions of grown up Rhaego.

Also based on sequence of Dany's vision in House of Undying, that vision with lord beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, is a vision of a future. Dany sees three visions, and then again three more visions, and after that three more. ACOK, Dany IV:

Based on this sequences -

  • first visions depicts recent events:

1.1. death of Viserys,

2.1. demonstration by Stannis of his magic sword at Dragonstone,

3.1. Dany in Vaes Dothrak going to bath after eating stallion's heart (or maybe it's a vision from her wedding night);

  • second vision is from the future:

1.2. grown up Rhaego,

2.2. Mummers Dragon,

3.2. dead Ironborn, who is probably Theon;

  • third vision is from the past:

1.3. Rhaegar's death,

2.3. (don't know what could be this one, but based on two others, this one also should be from the past, the only clue is that it happened before Melisandre gave red sword to Stannis),

3.3. Blue flower on The Wall (either Jon becoming Lord Commander, or arriving to The Wall.)

Thus chronological order of those visions - third, first, second.

And if those events are placed in correct order, then there is seen a pattern in them:

- Rhaegar's death, Viserys' death, future of Rhaego - Targaryens;

- a beast from smoking tower, red sword of Stannis, Mummers dragon - false things or fakes;

- blue flower on The Wall (probably Jon Snow), Dany in Dothraki Sea, dead man on a ship - ?

So we have Jon and Dany, and some unknown man. Probably it's not Theon, or one of Ironborn, probably this man is somehow connected to either love, or a prophecy about three dragon heads. Three visions from first two sequences had obvious connection between them - dragon blood in first, and a lie in the second. So there must be something like that, that connects together Jon/blue flower, Dany, and this third man.

Also could be that the scene with red sword is not from Dragonstone, when Melisandre just gave that sword to Stannis, that scene could be from The Wall, when Stannis defeated Mance. So the beast and smoking tower could be burning of Winterfell, death of Tywin and burning of Hand's Tower, burning of Summerhall, maybe burning of Tower of Joy, etc.

About Danny's visions in the house of the undiyng:

"Within, you will see many things that disturb you. Visions of loveliness and visions of horror, wonders and terrors. Sights and sounds of days gone by and days to come and days that never were."

I think everyone agrees that the tall lord with copper skin and silver hair flying a fiery stallion banner is an image of Raegho. The fact that she saw her dead son as a grown man "proves" absolutely nothing. He might have been simply a vision of loveliness, of days that never were. 

Edited by Lady Dacey

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1 hour ago, Lady Dacey said:

days that never were

There was only one vision with what didn't happened, and one with what won't happened, and this is it:

Quote

1.

When she stopped, she found herself in yet another dank stone chamber . . . but this time the door opposite was round, shaped like an open mouth, and Pyat Pree stood outside in the grass beneath the trees. “Can it be that the Undying are done with you so soon?” he asked in disbelief when he saw her.

“So soon?” she said, confused. “I’ve walked for hours, and still not found them.”

“You have taken a wrong turning. Come, I will lead you.” Pyat Pree held out his hand.

Dany hesitated. There was a door to her right, still closed . . .

“That’s not the way,” Pyat Pree said firmly, his blue lips prim with disapproval. “The Undying Ones will not wait forever.”

“Our little lives are no more than a flicker of a moth’s wing to them,” Dany said, remembering.

“Stubborn child. You will be lost, and never found.”

She walked away from him, to the door on the right.

“No,” Pyat screeched. “No, to me, come to me, to meeeeeee.” His face crumbled inward, changing to something pale and wormlike.

Quote

2.

Beyond the doors was a great hall and a splendor of wizards. Some wore sumptuous robes of ermine, ruby velvet, and cloth of gold. Others fancied elaborate armor studded with gemstones, or tall pointed hats speckled with stars. There were women among them, dressed in gowns of surpassing loveliness. Shafts of sunlight slanted through windows of stained glass, and the air was alive with the most beautiful music she had ever heard.

A kingly man in rich robes rose when he saw her, and smiled. “Daenerys of House Targaryen, be welcome. Come and share the food of forever. We are the Undying of Qarth.”

“Long have we awaited you,” said a woman beside him, clad in rose and silver. The breast she had left bare in the Qartheen fashion was as perfect as a breast could be.

“We knew you were to come to us,” the wizard king said. “A thousand years ago we knew, and have been waiting all this time. We sent the comet to show you the way.”

“We have knowledge to share with you,” said a warrior in shining emerald armor, “and magic weapons to arm you with. You have passed every trial. Now come and sit with us, and all your questions shall be answered.”

She took a step forward. But then Drogon leapt from her shoulder. He flew to the top of the ebony-and-weirwood door, perched there, and began to bite at the carved wood.

“A willful beast,” laughed a handsome young man. “Shall we teach you the secret speech of dragonkind? Come, come.”

Doubt seized her. The great door was so heavy it took all of Dany’s strength to budge it, but finally it began to move. Behind was another door, hidden. It was old grey wood, splintery and plain . . . but it stood to the right of the door through which she’d entered. The wizards were beckoning her with voices sweeter than song.

All the rest did happened.

So far out of 14 visions from the House of Undying, 12 already happened, and there's 2 more left - about dead man on a ship, and Rhaego.

At that point when Dany visited THOU, Robb was still alive (but she saw Red Wedding), Varys didn't revealed yet existance of Young Griff (but Dany saw mummers dragon). Now out of 4 visions of a future 2 already happened. Also at that point in time Dany didn't knew (probably she never knew about this) that Stannis had glowing sword and blue eyes, or that in The North there are blue flowers with fragrant smell.

What lies did they told her? What out of her visions were false (aside from fake Pyat Pree and fake Undying in a room prior last room with real Undying?)

Edited by Megorova

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4 minutes ago, Megorova said:
1 hour ago, Lady Dacey said:

days that never were

There was only one vision with what didn't happened, and one with what won't happened, and this is it:

Why are you sure there was only one of each of those, really? That's just your whishful thinking, there's no reason to believe it. 

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2 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Why are you sure there was only one of each of those, really? That's just your whishful thinking, there's no reason to believe it. 

12 that already happened (in random order):

  1. War of Five Kings
  2. Red Wedding
  3. Stannis and his magic sword
  4. Rhaegar's death
  5. Viserys' death
  6. Dany in Vaes Dothrak
  7. Blue flower on The Wall <- could this be NOT Jon, I don't think so.
  8. House with red door
  9. Mad King ordering to burn King's Landing
  10. Elia and Rhaegar naming Aegon
  11. Mummers dragon
  12. A beast from smoking tower <- this is the only one that I don't know what it is.

And aside from visions there were also prophecies told by Undying. Out of 9 of them, at least 5 already happened:

Quote

three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love

three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love

three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love

Fire for life is Drogo's funeral pyre, on which Dany burned Drogo, Mirri and horse, and this gave life to three of her dragons.

One to bed is Daario, one to dread is Dany's second husband.

Treason for blood is Mirri's betrayal. Second, that is for gold, is Jorah's.

Other things that she saw near the end of her visit:

Quote

Faster and faster the visions came, one after the other, until it seemed as if the very air had come alive.

1. Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible.

2. A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door.

3. Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow.

4. Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged.

5. A white lion ran through grass taller than a man.

6. Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed.

7. Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. “Mother!” they cried. “Mother, mother!” They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them 

Aside from dragon bursting out of Mirri's brow, all the rest did happened, it was mostly visions of Dany's past, and only one with slaves was from the future (also already happened).

So out of 32 things that in THOU Dany either saw or heard, 2 were fake, 24 already happened, and there's still 2 more visions and 4 more prophecies. Out of 26 that are already in the past, only 2 were fake visions, but those were not even a visions/predictions/or memories, those two were illusions to lure her into wrong door.

Out of 24 things that already happened, 21 (aside from beautiful woman with four little man, a beast from smoking tower, and blue flower on The Wall) are direct, clear, and obvious things, that can't be interpreted ambiguously.

But even those three things has not that many options how they can be interpreted. If not Jon, then what else can be blue flower on the wall of ice? And about beautiful woman - in ASOIAF world ships, cities, countries, etc. are referred to as "she". So most likely that woman is 7K, and four little man are Joffrey, Stannis, Renly and Greyjoy. And a beast from smoking tower - given that this event happened before Stannis vision, which probably was either when he was still at Dragonstone, or when he defeated Mance at The Wall, I think other readers can gues what it could be. I'm not getting what it could be, just because out of first books, I haven't read for years chapters with POV that are not Jon, Dany, Bran, Arya or Tyrion. So I just don't remember what that could be. But probably it's something obvious.

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On 2018-01-13 at 3:43 AM, Megorova said:

That sort of syncretism of their religions are fairly possible. Because in both religions there was a prophecy about his coming (messenger/savior send by God).

There are similarities between religion of R'hllor and religion of the Stallion, so thru use of those similarities, those religions and their practitioners can be brought together and united.

The problem I see with this is that one of the religions is an organized one with a formal priesthood and, from what I've understood, have missionary ambitions. As such I see little reason as to why the Red Priests would compromisse their doctrines for the sake of some savage horsemen's prophecy about a guy who really is very different from the one that the Red Priests looks forward to. The only "syncretism" I can see is that the Dothraki convert to the Red God and then have a transition period where parts of their original traditions are incorporated or allowed to slowly wither away over several generations, before embracing a more orthodox R'hllorism.

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I figured out the meaning of that vision, about beast from smoking tower. The key is the timing, and description given by Undying to each set of visions - daughter of death, slayer of lies, bride of fire. The vision about that beast is described as a lie. In trinity of visions the first one is about recent past, second is about funure, and the last one is also about past, though more distant than the first. As distant as Rhaegar's death. If three visions will be placed in correct order not only between themselves, but all 9 will be placed in correct order, according to this code, then it becomes obvious what is their meaning.

Three about distant past:

1. "Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name."

2. "From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire."

3. "A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness."

Rhaegar's death, Jon's birth, Jon in Winterfell (not on The Wall).

Smoking tower - Tower of Joy, that was destroyed by Ned. Jon Snow is flying stone beast, breathing shadow fire. Not a dragon but a beast, because he is half-dragon half-wolf. Stone because he is binded by a lie of his birth, he is dormant. And thus he is one of the dragons that Dany will wake from the stone. Not only three of literal dragons from stone eggs, but also Jon Snow. And the last vision from the past, is from the same distant past as Rhaegar's death, not from recent events when Jon just arrived to The Wall. So this vision about blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice, is Jon living in Winterfell, in a hostile environment, or more like in cold towards him environment. Starks gave Jon a small place/chink to grow in their family.

Recent past, also placed in chronological order:

4. "Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth."

5. "Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow."

6. "Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars."

Future events in chronological order (opposite from order of visions):

7. "A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly."

8. "A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd."

9. "A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him."

So corpse on a ship will happen earlier than Mummers dragon. Thus Mummers dragon amidst cheering crowd is not simply fAegon arriving to Westeros, probably that scene will happen much later, probably he will be crowned as King of 7K. But then Dany will get there and will slay his lies. And Rhaego's scene is from 15+ years in the future.

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On ‎16‎.‎01‎.‎2018 at 1:12 AM, Lady Dacey said:

It amazes me how much people will talk about things they clearly don't understand/haven't studied with so much confidence.

What  you say actually has a name to it. I bet you'll be interested in it so here  it is.

 

Quote

From genetics to religion... Sometimes the comparisons people draw are hard to take seriously and respond to, because the premises they're build upon are false 

I wonder who could these people be...

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@Corvo the CrowHi there. I hope you don't believe I'm talking about you or anyone personally! I'm not trying to pick a fight. Just talking about my experience as a forum user. I should be thinking more throughly before engaging in a discussion, is all. 

Edited by Lady Dacey

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2 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

@Corvo the CrowHi there. I hope you don't believe I'm talking about you or anyone personally! I'm not trying to pick a fight. Just talking about my experience as a forum user. I should be thinking more throughly before engaging in a discussion, is all. 

I am not. Just tried to mean that there are plenty of people of that kind and it's not just the forums. If you checked the link I provided, it actually gives a reason for that.

 

Edit: Since this is a thread on religion, here's one personal example on that.

I live in a "muslim" country, a lot of the uneducated masses consider themselves "religious" when they haven't even read their religion's holy book and most of the time they act in ways quite the opposite of teachings of Qhoran. I, a non-believer even as a small child, on the other hand, have actually read it and have tried many a time to teach these kind of people their own religion, to no avail. They just won't learn, won't read and will act as if they know it all without having the slightest idea on what they think they believe.

Oh by the way, funnily enough I act more in accordance with the holy book despite having no belief in a god at all, because in all fairness there are actually some good ideas in there (same with Torah, haven't read the bible, yet.)

 

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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