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Lost Melnibonean

Littlefinger hired a Faceless Man to kill the Ned

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4 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Haha yes we have!

I agree.

Oh, on that I disagree...

And when a Dothraki horde invades the realm he can bring forward Aegon, positioned to be savior...

Wait wait wait... he singles Ned out as a threat!

Of everyone Varys is scared of Ned. 

Varys is responsible for talking Cersei and Ned into accepting the take the black deal.

He has access to the Black cells, and was surprised by Ned’s beheading.

 

I think Varys has motive as shown above, and since Rorge and Biter were dangerous enough to warrant caution, and we’re talking about a Faceless man, there is no reason to believe the faceless man wasn’t put in the cell after Ned gave the order for them to go with Yoren.

In fact that makes way more sense, that the faceless man switched in because they were given to the Night’s Watch, not the other way around.

I am firmly in the camp in which it is believed that Illyrio was referring to Jon Connington when talking about the threat posed by Eddard, suggesting that Varys should co-opt Eddard, not kill him. 

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@Lost Melnibonean I want to say that's the best explanation for a faceless man in the dungeons of the Red Keep I've seen so far. It makes a lot of sense.

we won't come to a conclusion about it being true or false before Winds, but I really enjoyed what you put together 

Edited by Lady Dacey

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@Lost Melnibonean , I'm afraid the quote you provided doesn't explain if the FM take their time of their own volition, or if they follow the hirer's instructions in this.

 

ETA: On a side note: I am wondering what would have happened if Arya didn't stop to free the prisoners. Were the chains the real deal, or would Jacquen be able to free himself on his own if necesary?

Edited by Ygrain

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2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

As to the expense...

Keep in mind that we first learned how expensive the faceless men are from Petyr. That at least allows for the argument that he had knowledge of their fees. 

Sure. He's Littlefinger, he probably knows everything money-related. He maybe even toyed with the idea of hiring them.

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

And I believe there are several obvious hints that Petyr was loaded, and there are enough subtle hints of Petyr's graft to fuel several threads on the topic in this forum (although I haven't seen one in a while). 

Anybody can hire a faceless man to give the gift. The faceless men are not in it for the money. But they do demand a pound of flesh. Of course they would have charged Petyr a fortune to assassinate the Hand of the King but Petyr had surely become extremely wealthy.

And he's still just as loaded as always! No indication anywhere that at some point in recent history he became even marginally poorer. So, if he hired the FM, then it cost him - relatively - nothing, or close enough. Which goes against the notion of the Faceless Men being expensive AF.

Euron "threw into the sea" a dragon egg, easily the major part of his wealth. What did Littlefinger part with?

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40 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I am firmly in the camp in which it is believed that Illyrio was referring to Jon Connington when talking about the threat posed by Eddard, suggesting that Varys should co-opt Eddard, not kill him. 

Wait here? I’m confused...

Quote

 

"Perhaps so," the forked beard replied, pausing to catch his breath after the long climb. "Nonetheless, we must have time. The princess is with child. The khal will not bestir himself until his son is born. You know how they are, these savages."
The man with the torch pushed at something. Aryaheard a deep rumbling. A huge slab of rock, red in the torchlight, slid down out of the ceiling with a resounding crash that almost made her cry out. Where the entry to the well had been was nothing but stone, solid and unbroken. 
"If he does not bestir himself soon, it may be too late," the stout man in the steel cap said. "This is no longer a game for two players, if ever it was. Stannis Baratheon and Lysa Arryn have fled beyond my reach, and the whispers say they are gathering swords around them. The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court. The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen. Littlefinger … the gods only know what game Littlefinger is playing. Yet Lord Stark's the one who troubles my sleep. He has the bastard, he has the book, and soon enough he'll have the truth. And now his wife has abducted Tyrion Lannister, thanks to Littlefinger's meddling. Lord Tywin will take that for an outrage, and Jaime has a queer affection for the Imp. If the Lannisters move north, that will bring the Tullys in as well. Delay, you say. Make haste, I reply. Even the finest of jugglers cannot keep a hundred balls in the air forever."

 

 
 
Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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20 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

@Lost Melnibonean I want to say that's the best explanation for a faceless man in the dungeons of the Red Keep I've seen so far. It makes a lot of sense.

we won't come to a conclusion about it being true or false before Winds, but I really enjoyed what you put together 

Aw, shucks. Thanks. 

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10 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

@Lost Melnibonean , I'm afraid the quote you provided doesn't explain if the FM take their time of their own volition, or if they follow the hirer's instructions in this.

Nope. But it's what came to mind when I read your comment. :)

11 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

ETA: On a side note: I am wondering what would have happened if Arya didn't stop to free the prisoners. Were the chains the real deal, or would Jacquen be able to free himself on his own if necesary?

Dude's a faceless man, not Superman. 

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10 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Sure. He's Littlefinger, he probably knows everything money-related. He maybe even toyed with the idea of hiring them.

That's it... that's it... C'mon, now... just a little further...

11 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

And he's still just as loaded as always! No indication anywhere that at some point in recent history he became even marginally poorer. So, if he hired the FM, then it cost him - relatively - nothing, or close enough. Which goes against the notion of the Faceless Men being expensive AF.

His vast wealth is hidden--off the books. 

12 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Euron "threw into the sea" a dragon egg, easily the major part of his wealth. What did Littlefinger part with?

If I knew, I would put it in the OP. :)

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6 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

If I knew, I would put it in the OP. :)

The words "embezzlement of the crown's funds" springs to mind...

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11 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

That's it... that's it... C'mon, now... just a little further...

His vast wealth is hidden--off the books. 

If I knew, I would put it in the OP. :)

Maybe he made someone else with less wealth hire the fm. That would be smart...

 

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I don't really buy into LF hiring the FM to kill Ned, but there is something I've been wondering about.

Jaqen is at Oldtown in AFFC, the speculation is that he is looking to recover a book. Is it possible that this is his whole mission? Recovering things?

He starts out at the Red Keep, a place that belonged to the Targaryens for almost 300 years and we know Robert didn't get rid of everything Targaryen. We know there are armors and dragon skulls for instance. So maybe there's something else there he was sent to recover.

Then he is freed by Arya, and he could have gone anywhere he wanted, including return to Braavos, but instead, he joined the Lannister host and went to Harrenhal. Harrenhal has just recently been vacated by Shella Whent, and we know the history of the castle. 

After he leaves Harrenhal, he turns up at Oldtown, posing as an Acolyte or whatever it is that Pate was before he killed him.

And there's the number three shenanigans. Three different places, three possible objects.

Edited by Widow's Watch

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7 minutes ago, Faera said:

The words "embezzlement of the crown's funds" springs to mind...

That's how he got rich, but not how he spent it. On the other hand, it suggests (as I think you read it) that he embezzled the crown's funds for this very purpose, so that, as @Ferocious Veldt Roarer pointed out, we don't see any change in his overall wealth. 

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18 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

If I knew, I would put it in the OP. :)

IMHO, it may not have been money. What does LF cherish most, except his little finger?

22 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Dude's a faceless man, not Superman. 

I was thinking along the lines of being able to pick the locks of the manacles.

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@Lost Melnibonean

Well done! I am not sure if I am sold, but I think you've made a very good case for Littlefinger's motives, and why he would want to be sure Ned never made it out of King's Landing alive, and why Jaquen was there. Also reminds me of the convo with the Small Council where Ned is shocked about the debt of the Crown. Makes that convo extremely chilling if that had actually been done and gone toward hiring a FM against Ned.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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There is also the major detail that Varys littlerally changes his face... Ned only recognizes him by his voice, and after feeling his face believes Varys used magic...

Quote

The voice was strangely familiar, yet it took Ned Stark a moment to place it. "Varys?" he said groggily when it came. He touched the man's face. "I'm not . . . not dreaming this. You're here." The eunuch's plump cheeks were covered with a dark stubble of beard. Ned felt the coarse hair with his fingers. Varys had transformed himself into a grizzled turnkey, reeking of sweat and sour wine. "How did you . . . what sort of magician are you?"

 
Varys is a Eunuch we believe, and we know Arya was told:
 
Quote

"You should. Stay, and the Many-Faced God will takeyour ears, your nose, your tongue. He will take your sad grey eyes that have seen so much. He will takeyour hands, your feet, your arms and legs, your private parts. He will take your hopes and dreams, your loves and hates. Those who enter His service must give up all that makes them who they are. Can you do that?" He cupped her chin and gazed deep into her eyes, so deep it made her shiver. "No," he said, "I do not think you can."

 
And Arya recognizes Jaqen’s voice when she first meets him:
 
Quote

"A man does not choose his companions in the black cells," the handsome one with the red-and-white hair said. Something about the way he talked remindedher of Syrio; it was the same, yet different too. "These two, they have no courtesy. A man must ask forgiveness. You are called Arry, is that not so?"

 

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2 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I don't really buy into LF hiring the FM to kill Ned, but there is something I've been wondering about.

Jaqen is at Oldtown in AFFC, the speculation is that he is looking to recover a book. Is it possible that this is his whole mission? Recovering things?

He starts out at the Red Keep, a place that belonged to the Targaryens for almost 300 years and we know Robert didn't get rid of everything Targaryen. We know there are armors and dragon skulls for instance. So maybe there's something else there he was sent to recover.

Then he is freed by Arya, and he could have gone anywhere he wanted, including return to Braavos, but instead, he joined the Lannister host and went to Harrenhal. Harrenhal has just recently been vacated by Shella Whent, and we know the history of the castle. 

After he leaves Harrenhal, he turns up at Oldtown, posing as an Acolyte or whatever it is that Pate was before he killed him.

And there's the number three shenanigans. Three different places, three possible objects.

Nothing that someone says before the word "but" really counts. Welcome aboard! 

I think he's back in Braavos by the time of The Ugly Little Girl, Dance 64...

Quote

After three hours of wine and words, the priests took their leave …

all but the kindly man, the waif, and the one whose face bore the marks of plague. His cheeks were covered with weeping sores, and his hair had fallen out. Blood dripped from one nostril and crusted at the corners of both eyes.

"Our brother would have words with you, child," the kindly man told her.

"Sit, if you wish." She seated herself in a weirwood chair with a face of ebony. Bloody sores held no terror for her. She had been too long in the House of Black and White to be afraid of a false face.

"Who are you?" plague face asked when they were alone. "No one."

"Not so. You are Arya of House Stark, who bites her lip and cannot tell a lie."

"I was. I'm not now."

"Why are you here, liar?"

"To serve. To learn. To change my face."

"First change your heart. The gift of the Many-Faced God is not a child's plaything. You would kill for your own purposes, for your own pleasures. Do you deny it?"

She bit her lip. "I—"

He slapped her.

The blow left her cheek stinging, but she knew that she had earned it.

"Thank you." Enough slaps, and she might stop chewing on her lip. Arya did that, not the night wolf. "I do deny it."

"You lie. I can see the truth in your eyes. You have the eyes of a wolf and a taste for blood."

Ser Gregor, she could not help but think. Dunsen, Raff the Sweetling, Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei. If she spoke, she would need to lie, and he would know. She kept silent.

"You were a cat, they tell me. Prowling through the alleys smelling of fish, selling cockles and mussels for coin. A small life, well suited for a small creature such as you. Ask, and it can be restored to you. Push your barrow, cry your cockles, be content. Your heart is too soft to be one of us."

He means to send me away. "I have no heart. I only have a hole. I've killed lots of people. I could kill you if I wanted." 

"Would that taste sweet to you?"

She did not know the right answer. "Maybe."

"Then you do not belong here. Death holds no sweetness in this house. We are not warriors, nor soldiers, nor swaggering bravos puffed up with pride. We do not kill to serve some lord, to fatten our purses, to stroke our vanity. We never give the gift to please ourselves. Nor do we choose the ones we kill. We are but servants of the God of Many Faces."

"Valar dohaeris." All men must serve.

"You know the words, but you are too proud to serve. A servant must be humble and obedient."

"I obey. I can be humbler than anyone."

That made him chuckle. "You will be the very goddess of humility, I am sure. But can you pay the price?"

"What price?"

"The price is you. The price is all you have and all you ever hope to have. We took your eyes and gave them back. Next we will take your ears, and you will walk in silence. You will give us your legs and crawl. You will be no one's daughter, no one's wife, no one's mother. Your name will be a lie, and the very face you wear will not be your own."

She almost bit her lip again, but this time she caught herself and stopped. My face is a dark pool, hiding everything, showing nothing. She thought of all the names that she had worn: Arry, Weasel, Squab, Cat of the Canals. She thought of that stupid girl from Winterfell called Arya Horseface. Names did not matter. "I can pay the price. Give me a face."

"Faces must be earned."

"Tell me how."

"Give a certain man a certain gift. Can you do that?"

"What man?"

"No one that you know."

"I don't know a lot of people."

"He is one of them. A stranger. No one you love, no one you hate, no one you have ever known. Will you kill him?"

"Yes."

"Then on the morrow, you shall be Cat of the Canals again. Wear that face, watch, obey. And we will see if you are truly worthy to serve Him of Many Faces."

 

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29 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

That's it... that's it... C'mon, now... just a little further...

His vast wealth is hidden--off the books.

But not from the author himself, I hope. So he'd have found a way to indicate somehow that the Littlefinger estate took a hit. Some brothels he owned, but does not anymore. Recent mortgage on his lands. Personal retinue smaller than only a year ago. Jewelry he no longer wears. Anything.

Yet, nothing. So it simply is not a part of the story GRRM is telling.

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16 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Jaqen is at Oldtown in AFFC, the speculation is that he is looking to recover a book. Is it possible that this is his whole mission? Recovering things?

A good hypothesis, too, but it doesn't explain how he wound up in the Black Cells. That's the place for the worst criminals, so what crime did he commit (and how come he was so stupid as to get caught)?

But let us follow your theory a wee bit: what if the guy ended up in the Black Cells because he knew Yoren would be recruiting there, and the Wall was the place where he wanted to reach, to mine some information from the library or Maester Aemon himself?  Then, perhaps, he found something at HH that made the trip to the Wall no longer necessary, and so he went to Oldtown instead -  for example, he learned that the book he knew, or thought to be at Castle Black, could also be found at Oldtown, which would be easier to infiltrate.

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17 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

IMHO, it may not have been money. What does LF cherish most, except his little finger?

I was thinking along the lines of being able to pick the locks of the manacles.

Dude was gonna die...

Quote

Going back into that barn was the hardest thing she ever did. Smoke was pouring out the open door like a writhing black snake, and she could hear the screams of the poor animals inside, donkeys and horses and men. She chewed her lip, and darted through the doors, crouched low where the smoke wasn't quite so thick.

A donkey was caught in a ring of fire, shrieking in terror and pain. She could smell the stench of burning hair. The roof was gone up too, and things were falling down, pieces of flaming wood and bits of straw and hay. Arya put a hand over her mouth and nose. She couldn't see the wagon for the smoke, but she could still hear Biter screaming. She crawled toward the sound.

And then a wheel was looming over her. The wagon jumped and moved a half foot when Biter threw himself against his chains again. Jaqen saw her, but it was too hard to breathe, let alone talk. She threw the axe into the wagon. Rorge caught it and lifted it over his head, rivers of sooty sweat pouring down his noseless face. Arya was running, coughing. She heard the steel crash through the old wood, and again, again. An instant later came a crack as loud as thunder, and the bottom of the wagon came ripping loose in an explosion of splinters.

Arya IV, Clash 14

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16 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

@Lost Melnibonean

Well done! I am not sure if I am sold, but I think you've made a very good case for Littlefinger's motives, and why he would want to be sure Ned never made it out of King's Landing alive, and why Jaquen was there. Also reminds me of the convo with the Small Council where Ned is shocked about the debt of the Crown. Makes that convo extremely chilling if that had actually been done and gone toward hiring a FM against Ned.

:thumbsup:

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