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LordMiddleFinger

Elite Fighters vs Raw Physical strength who wins?

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I think another factor that you need to consider here is... let's call it fanaticism.  It is very difficult for an armed fighter to deal with a grappler using a longer weapon (spear, axe, sword in some cases), hence why a shorter weapon was also typically carried.  However, at that point, strength and sheer bulk count for a lot more--I doubt anyone would argue that any of the "elites" would have a chance against the Mountain if it came to grappling.  We also saw Brienne use this approach against Loras, although I too am of the belief that that one wasn't anywhere near the top when it came to swordsmanship.

The challenge, of course, is getting into a grappling position against an armed fighter.  And this is where I would point to the cohesiveness and fanaticism of Squad Lunk as being important.  If half of those big guys were willing to (likely) sacrifice themselves while attempting to overbear and drive the elites to the ground, then the other half pretty much get to be on cleanup duty.  Given the book defined personality of these characters, that will not likely happen.  In a more generic case, however, I suggest that this becomes a very important factor.

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@divica @zandru you're correct about Garlan and Loras.  I still believe that Brienne would have been stronger than Jaime at the point of their fight given her size and the fact she was well fed and her lack of fatigue, but believe it does also speak worse for Loras.

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29 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

@divica @zandru you're correct about Garlan and Loras.  I still believe that Brienne would have been stronger than Jaime at the point of their fight given her size and the fact she was well fed and her lack of fatigue, but believe it does also speak worse for Loras.

Yeah she may be stronger, but I don t think she would be much stronger for it to have much influence. In adition jamie has his hands tied together if I am not mistaken.

And if garlan did train with 3 swordsman (I don t remember this) grrm did a nice paralel to jon training with 3 recruits in adwd.

Edited by divica

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14 hours ago, 1/7 Maester said:

I think Sandor fits the Elite Swordsmen Team, and he would choose these team, too. He wants to get rid of  Gregor.

4 against 8, the Raw Power Team would win, many of them are actually quite skilled.

If Sandor joined the Elite Swordsmen Team, that colud change things.

 

This is a fantasy match up. Of course Sandor wants Gregor dead but in this scenario it's just a team of monsters vs a team of elite swordsman. 

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11 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

I'm tired of Ser Jamie being placed with the likes of Ser Arthur Dayne and Daemon Blackfyre, Barristan Selmy etc. 

Yes he is unbelievably gifted and has the potential to be as great as the other knights I listed but Jamie hasnt really accomplished much YET. 

Jaime deserves a place in the "Best Swordsman in ASOIAF" category. He might not have Barristan' experience or Arthur Dayne's reputation but that's a direct result of what he did to the King he was supposed to protect with his life, it would stand to reason that people would refuse to acknowledge his incredible skill with a sword and think of him as a snake who prefers to fight dirty and stab his opponent in the back like a coward ( all the things that Jaime is not ). Jaime was the best swordsman in Westeros at the begining of the story, the first book "A Game of Thrones". Even George R.R. Martin said this. In my opinion he is better than old Barristan but prime Barristan Selmy was most likely better than Jaime. Having said that, i believe that in a fight between a younger Barristan Selmy and Jame Lannister from from the first book, Barristan wins but barely. Just my personal opinion, i am not shitting on your comment or your opinion. Cheers.

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I don't follow the SSM's, but indirectly I heard the idea is that yes there's a group of elite fighters, but the skill levels are so close that you can't predict who's going to win the next fight.

Jaime might have the most natural talent, but I somehow doubt he made the most of it: most of his life he was arrogant and sometimes lazy too - if you just know you're the best, why bother trying to get better?

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