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U.S. Politics: And a Happy "Shithole" Year


Sivin

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15 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

The problem with dmc isn't that he listed 'facts'.  It's that he claimed that Trudeau was wrong in making a statement about Castro upon his death.  Dmc is coming from a place of American propaganda where Castro is to be looked upon as scum, and that's it.  As a special case of evil. 

Yeah, never said Castro was scum, nor a special case of evil, but enjoy your amusingly pathetic interpretation.  And my problem with Trudeau's statements, once again, was simply this:

On 1/16/2018 at 6:21 PM, dmc515 said:

So, when Trudeau says "both Mr. Castro’s supporters and detractors recognized his tremendous dedication and love for the Cuban people who had a deep and lasting affection for ‘el Comandante," it is an incredibly naive statement.  It also is a slap in the face to the large group of Cubans Castro killed, tortured, or exiled.  Further, it suggests a naivete that will be seized upon by oppressive regimes throughout the world - in a similar fashion to how Putin is brazenly gaming Trump.  In short, it makes Trudeau look like one of those dumb hipsters wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt that I laugh at on the street.

Compare that statement of Trudeau's to Obama's:

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President Barack Obama said “history will record and judge” former Cuban leader Fidel Castro’s impact on the island nation and offered a “hand of friendship” to the Cuban people in a statement Saturday on Castro’s death at 90 years old.

“We know that this moment fills Cubans — in Cuba and in the United States — with powerful emotions, recalling the countless ways in which Fidel Castro altered the course of individual lives, families and of the Cuban nation,” he said. [...]

“As they do, the Cuban people must know that they have a friend and partner in the United States of America,” Obama concluded.

Or Angela Merkel's spokesperson, who stated the Cuban revolution was linked with "putting the island and the inhabitants of the island under a system of political repression for decades.  Or, from the same link, Trudeau's own comments after he backtracked from his initial statement, in which he acknowledged there were "significant concerns" about Cuba's human rights record.  Seems like lots of people knew it was ill-advised to cast Castro as a purely a beloved figure.

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32 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

 

No, the Castro regime is certainly not a special case of evil.  But pointing out their atrocities and why it's naive to willfully ignore such while painting Castro as a beloved hero apparently means you're a McCarthyist propagandist, even though I don't think I've mentioned communism once until now (and that's because Castro's actions have nothing to do with communism).

Oh bull. I posted a story about the fact the Canadian government will not give grants to groups for summer jobs unless they acknowledge their core mission does not violate Human Rights in Canada, and Fox was stirring up shit among the evangelical community over evangelicals that refuse to give women the right to control their bodies. You countered with "Got no problem with this, but Trudeau's comments on Castro aren't going away.  They were ill advised, amateurish, and something no relevant party in this hemisphere will forget anytime soon. "

What relevant party in this hemisphere is that? Cubans will always remember Canada as a great friend. The US? Yes, the US has a fucked up attitude towards Cuba. Obama's opening up of the relationship happened because Canada worked as a go between and offered our country as a place for talks.

Trudeau's comments were not ill-advised, because Cuba is a friend. We haven't given a shit about how pissed the US is about that for decades and we don't give a shit now. Well, except for the Republicans Lite in Canada, the Conservatives. Nobody in Canada has forgotten that there were lousy things that happened and still happen in Cuba, but shit, we to a fuck-ton of business with China and they are way worse. Anyone who thinks people don't know about Cuba is the party that's naïve.

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23 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Yeah, never said Castro was scum, nor a special case of evil, but enjoy your amusingly pathetic interpretation.  And my problem with Trudeau's statements, once again, was simply this:

Compare that statement of Trudeau's to Obama's:

Or Angela Merkel's spokesperson, who stated the Cuban revolution was linked with "putting the island and the inhabitants of the island under a system of political repression for decades.  Or, from the same link, Trudeau's own comments after he backtracked from his initial statement, in which he acknowledged there were "significant concerns" about Cuba's human rights record.  Seems like lots of people knew it was ill-advised to cast Castro as a purely a beloved figure.

You really are a joke. Obama is an American politician.  I'm not sure why you think it's significant that his public comments about Castro followed the typical American position.  I am not familiar with Germany's relationship with Cuba, but I assume the politics of it are such that their leader is required to make some color-by-number commentary about Castro being bad.  

For the rest, Fragile Bid has said it way better than I could.  

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16 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Lol, no, Cubans in exile in Florida don't count when it comes to grieving Castro. They left. They were not Castro supporters. The fact they don't grieve for him doesn't count.

My point is that you're suggesting they and their families don't count when Trudeau refers to the Cuban people's "deep and lasting affection for 'El Comandante.'"  

18 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

You'd better check your history.

From Granma, the official paper of the Cuban Communist Party:

Quote

As an aggressive move against the Cuban people in 1960, U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower’s administration reduced Cuba’s sugar quota – the market share allotted to Cuba. (Seewww.granma.cu/cuba/2015-07-06/sin-cuota-pero-sin-amo - Spanish). Congress awarded the President the authority to make such a decision, allowing him to use regulatory mechanisms for the purpose of coercion and reprisals against the Cuban Revolution.

At the time, Fidel made clear that the action was intended to “undermine our country’s economy, defeat us with hunger, and subjugate our people.”

Just as had been warned, in accordance with decisions made by the U.S., the Revolutionary Government’s Council of Ministers approved the Nationalization Law, which, in its first article authorized the President of the Republic and the Prime Minister “to order jointly, through resolutions, when they consider appropriate for the defense of national interest, the nationalization via obligatory expropriation of property and companies owned by individuals or incorporated entities of the United States of America, and companies with interests or participation of such persons, regardless of their constitution in accordance with Cuban laws.” [1]

Cuba nationalized oil refineries in October 1960 as a response to Ike canceling the sugar imports, which led to the beginnings of formalizing the embargo, which led to the Cuban government seizing American property, which led to Ike cutting off all diplomatic relations in 1961.  More importantly, the Castro regime began purchasing arms from the Soviets during the Spring of 1960.  Anyway, I've forgotten why any of this matters.

33 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Duh, every person who writes about the Cuban revolution pulls unreliable numbers out of a hat. Because capitalists don't have an agenda, huh? Amnesty International numbers end in 1987 because they were there until 1987, and I trust their research more than American government backed Cubans in exile painting Castro as a bloodthirsty guy slaughtering Cubans.

[...]

And yes, the executions basically stopped fairly quickly. Executions make the news, since they are so rare, unlike in the US. The most high profile executions were of three army officers decades ago, because apparently they got into drug smuggling. The last execution in Cuba happened in April, 2003. Last year alone 23 people were executed in the US.

So those academic sources are all based on a capitalist agenda and American propaganda?  Alright, there's no point in continuing discussion.

39 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

People who did not support Castro left in droves, they weren't banished or exiled. They left. They could have stayed and built their country.

LOL.

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3 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

US people are uniquely primed to get hot and bothered about Cuba. The issue isn't about how bad the Communist regime in Cuba is. The issue is why the US singles Cuba out for special attention over and above other countries that are as bad or worse. By all appearances it looks like the reason is there is a sizeable voting bloc of Cuban exiles (or the descendants of Cuban exiles) living mostly in Florida, who will vote enmass against any politician who suggests a relationship with Cuba that lines US-Cuba relations along similar lines as US relations other countries with similar political systems and human rights issues.

People from other countries are aware of the history and current situation in Cuba, we just don't get why US people see Cuba as a special case of evil.

Exactly how I fealt about that. I was embarrassed that other Americans were gloating over the death of the leader of a Caribean nation. They see Cuba as a special case of evil because they are conditioned to parrot in such a way.

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