The Sunland Lord Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share Posted January 14, 2018 5 hours ago, Lady Dacey said: Yeah he did. He broke an oath he had sworn. That's a fact. No one can dispute it. Now, what would have been the right course of action that's an endless discussion and there's no conclusion to get to. We all see it differently depending on our own personal ethics, which is molded throughout life by the culture we are immersed in, the upbringing we get and the experiences we go through I for one fundamentally disagree with this assessment. But I believe we are here to enrich each other with our views on the characters. It's amazing how we all read the same words and come up with very different interpretations of them. I don't think that it's very productive to discuss if a character was right or wrong in a given situation. It's interesting to discuss what the said character thought, how he viewed himself, if he believe he was justified or if he didn't care, what connections can be made, what the autor wanted to tell us between the lines, what the author is trying to tell us through the actions he has us witness... simply discussing "how wrong was he!?" is not really enriching. It just hit me (coincidentally, of course) that other characters broke their oaths in the ASOIAF series. What oath is justified to break, and what is not? What should have a bigger priority in a man's life? Jon Snow sending someone to save his (who he thought to be) wed sister? Taking part in a war by aiding Stannis? Is it OK for Jaime to kill Aerys, who commanded him to kill Tywin, but not OK for Jon trying to save Arya, for example? Can anyone recall other oathbreakers and what drove them into it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollygag Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 1 hour ago, ravenous reader said: A Dance with Dragons - The Queensguard Barristan Selmy had known many kings. He had been born during the troubled reign of Aegon the Unlikely, beloved by the common folk, had received his knighthood at his hands. Aegon's son Jaehaerys had bestowed the white cloak on him when he was three-and-twenty, after he slew Maelys the Monstrous during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. In that same cloak he had stood beside the Iron Throne as madness consumed Jaehaerys's son Aerys. Stood, and saw, and heard, and yet did nothing. But no. That was not fair. He did his duty. Some nights, Ser Barristan wondered if he had not done that duty too well. He had sworn his vows before the eyes of gods and men, he could not in honor go against them … but the keeping of those vows had grown hard in the last years of King Aerys's reign. He had seen things that it pained him to recall, and more than once he wondered how much of the blood was on his own hands. If he had not gone into Duskendale to rescue Aerys from Lord Darklyn's dungeons, the king might well have died there as Tywin Lannister sacked the town. Then Prince Rhaegar would have ascended the Iron Throne, mayhaps to heal the realm. Duskendale had been his finest hour, yet the memory tasted bitter on his tongue. This quote brings into focus an idea I've been mulling over recently. It seems as though Jon, Jaime and Barristan are the same person at three different stages in terms of oaths. The KG cloak is very often linked to snow (and Snow!) as seen in Catelyn's and Jaime's conversation which I quoted above. Jon is living his choices in the moment. Jaime is experiencing the benefits and consequences of his choices. Barristan reflects upon those choices and their subsequent benefits and consequences and measures their weight. 1 hour ago, ravenous reader said: What it boils down to is that 'doing the right thing' involves a measure of self-sacrifice most people are not willing to offer. I'm rather skeptical about a literal Azor Ahai in the series, but I think that this is the true value of Azor Ahai, Last Hero, etc., myths. The fairy tale snow-white cloaks of the legendary KG where all is honor and beauty and strength are terribly misleading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandrax Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 What is purpose of this topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share Posted January 14, 2018 8 minutes ago, Kandrax said: What is purpose of this topic? For you to tell us your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elder brother jonothor dar Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 9 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said: Jaime took an oath and he broke it. He should have protected his king and do as he was commanded. Aerys told Jaime to deal with the rebels who took arms against their liege. Instead, Jaime Lannister betrays his king and kills him. I think that Jaime should've put aside all he was and knew before he had the great and rare honour of becoming a member of the Kingsguard. But, he decided that this oath didn't matter when it suited him. What's your opinion? I think your question comes down to what would he have done if the mad king was not mad. If the King was not planning to burn the city and asked for Tywins head what would he do? As has been pointed out he has broken several knightly vowes in his time protecting the King, he brakes even more and unthinkable ones by killing his King. This is justified by the lives of everyone in KL. We will never know but would his choice of Tywin above the King be the same if there where no innocent lives at stake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dacey Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 2 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said: It just hit me (coincidentally, of course) that other characters broke their oaths in the ASOIAF series. What oath is justified to break, and what is not? What should have a bigger priority in a man's life? Jon Snow sending someone to save his (who he thought to be) wed sister? Taking part in a war by aiding Stannis? Is it OK for Jaime to kill Aerys, who commanded him to kill Tywin, but not OK for Jon trying to save Arya, for example? Can anyone recall other oathbreakers and what drove them into it? This is, like, one of the major themes in the book! Remember the interactions between Jon Snow and maester Aemon in the rookery? You should reread it. Also there are some very interesting reflections on it in Jaime's POV chapters and Barristan's as well. It's worth thinking about. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 3 hours ago, ravenous reader said: What it boils down to is that 'doing the right thing' involves a measure of self-sacrifice most people are not willing to offer. Hence, most arguments defending Sansa's 'safe' choice here of feigning ignorance highlight her shrewd instinct for self-preservation. Of course, GRRM has the last word on the matter at the devastating close of the chapter, by killing her, not Arya's, wolf. The message: not standing up to tyrants, or even tacitly enabling them, in the hopes of remaining untouchable, can backfire and end up having very real consequences for oneself. Binding yourself to someone with an oath of service is a two way obligation. Becoming someone's sword and shield doesn't give carte blanche to the one receiving the promise. We see the most basic form with Brienne and Catelyn: Quote A Clash of Kings - Catelyn V The tall girl knelt awkwardly, unsheathed Renly's longsword, and laid it at her feet. "Then I am yours, my lady. Your liege man, or . . . whatever you would have me be. I will shield your back and keep your counsel and give my life for yours, if need be. I swear it by the old gods and the new." "And I vow that you shall always have a place by my hearth and meat and mead at my table, and pledge to ask no service of you that might bring you into dishonor. I swear it by the old gods and the new. Arise." As she clasped the other woman's hands between her own, Catelyn could not help but smile. How many times did I watch Ned accept a man's oath of service? She wondered what he would think if he could see her now. The 'out clause' is asking a liege man or woman to do something that might bring dishonor. And so we get into Jaime's conundrum that honoring one oath dishonors another and how to choose between one or another. The knights of the Kingsguard must foresake their first vow to defend and protect the weak and the innocent in the face of Aerys' brutality. To turn a blind eye, to hear nothing, to do nothing. So we get Sandor's judgement that there are no true knights. The honor of the kingsguard is a fraud, their knight's vow is worthless, their king's obligation to them or the people he governs is non-existent. The pledge to protect is broken. The Kingsguard are dishonored in every way. Jaime's confession is the truest account and his reasons for killing Aerys are spelled out: Quote A Storm of Swords - Jaime V "Everything was done in the utmost secrecy by a handful of master pyromancers. They did not even trust their own acolytes to help. The queen's eyes had been closed for years, and Rhaegar was busy marshaling an army. But Aerys's new mace-and-dagger Hand was not utterly stupid, and with Rossart, Belis, and Garigus coming and going night and day, he became suspicious. Chelsted, that was his name, Lord Chelsted." It had come back to him suddenly, with the telling. "I'd thought the man craven, but the day he confronted Aerys he found some courage somewhere. He did all he could to dissuade him. He reasoned, he jested, he threatened, and finally he begged. When that failed he took off his chain of office and flung it down on the floor. Aerys burnt him alive for that, and hung his chain about the neck of Rossart, his favorite pyromancer. The man who had cooked Lord Rickard Stark in his own armor. And all the time, I stood by the foot of the Iron Throne in my white plate, still as a corpse, guarding my liege and all his sweet secrets. "My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see, but Aerys liked to keep me close. I was my father's son, so he did not trust me. He wanted me where Varys could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all." He remembered how Rossart's eyes would shine when he unrolled his maps to show where the substance must be placed. Garigus and Belis were the same. "Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident, and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side. The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I'll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat. The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him . . . that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash. "Ned Stark was racing south with Robert's van, but my father's forces reached the city first. Pycelle convinced the king that his Warden of the West had come to defend him, so he opened the gates. The one time he should have heeded Varys, and he ignored him. My father had held back from the war, brooding on all the wrongs Aerys had done him and determined that House Lannister should be on the winning side. The Trident decided him. "It fell to me to hold the Red Keep, but I knew we were lost. I sent to Aerys asking his leave to make terms. My man came back with a royal command. 'Bring me your father's head, if you are no traitor.' Aerys would have no yielding. Lord Rossart was with him, my messenger said. I knew what that meant. "When I came on Rossart, he was dressed as a common man-at-arms, hurrying to a postern gate. I slew him first. Then I slew Aerys, before he could find someone else to carry his message to the pyromancers. Days later, I hunted down the others and slew them as well. Belis offered me gold, and Garigus wept for mercy. Well, a sword's more merciful than fire, but I don't think Garigus much appreciated the kindness I showed him." The water had grown cool. When Jaime opened his eyes, he found himself staring at the stump of his sword hand. The hand that made me Kingslayer. The goat had robbed him of his glory and his shame, both at once. Leaving what? Who am I now? The wench looked ridiculous, clutching her towel to her meager teats with her thick white legs sticking out beneath. "Has my tale turned you speechless? Come, curse me or kiss me or call me a liar. Something. "If this is true, how is it no one knows? Whatever else Jaime endured personally under Aerys's command; it was the plan to carry out mass murder that finally decides Jaime's course of action. Curse me or kiss me - he chose to end tyranny and accept the curse that comes with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygett Lannister Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 I don't anyone ever said Jamie didn't break the oath so better question is if he did the right thing by breaking it. Which I think he did. Aerys was dead anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dacey Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 2 hours ago, LynnS said: Binding yourself to someone with an oath of service is a two way obligation. Becoming someone's sword and shield doesn't give carte blanche to the one receiving the promise. We see the most basic form with Brienne and Catelyn: The 'out clause' is asking a liege man or woman to do something that might bring dishonor. And so we get into Jaime's conundrum that honoring one oath dishonors another and how to choose between one or another. The knights of the Kingsguard must foresake their first vow to defend and protect the weak and the innocent in the face of Aerys' brutality. To turn a blind eye, to hear nothing, to do nothing. So we get Sandor's judgement that there are no true knights. The honor of the kingsguard is a fraud, their knight's vow is worthless, their king's obligation to them or the people he governs is non-existent. The pledge to protect is broken. The Kingsguard are dishonored in every way. Jaime's confession is the truest account and his reasons for killing Aerys are spelled out: Whatever else Jaime endured personally under Aerys's command; it was the plan to carry out mass murder that finally decides Jaime's course of action. Curse me or kiss me - he chose to end tyranny and accept the curse that comes with it. Great exposition and precise highlights LynnS. I love the "curse me or kiss me" line - it shows us how Jaime himself thinks he might be deserving of a reward (kiss) for doing what he did... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 10 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said: Great exposition and precise highlights LynnS. I love the "curse me or kiss me" line - it shows us how Jaime himself thinks he might be deserving of a reward (kiss) for doing what he did... It certainly shows that he is conflicted. His sword hand is also his glory and his shame. A shame that haunts him in his dreams. With Brienne, he unburdens himself to the one person who could possibly understand the choice he faced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 50 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said: I don't anyone ever said Jamie didn't break the oath so better question is if he did the right thing by breaking it. Which I think he did. Aerys was dead anyways. The office of the Kingsguard is an old institution that predates Aerys. Their obligation is to the 'throne' more than any one person who sits on it. They were never meant to be glorified body guards or henchmen. So we have them giving up their personal status and ambitions in favor of the realm, not unlike the oath of the Night's Watch. The office of the king or queen is given for the protection, peace, prosperity and justice for the realm. I would say that when the sovereign breaks the pledge to protect or becomes a danger to the realm; that it's the duty of the KG to remove him or her, just as it is their duty to protect the sovereign in the course of carrying their duty to the realm. When that doesn't happen and the KG are false knights; we get the rise of the Faith Militant or groups like them to bring the crown to account. Knights and Kings are anointed by the church of the Seven: Quote A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I The last name caught Daenerys. "A knight?" "No less." Illyrio smiled through his beard. "Anointed with the seven oils by the High Septon himself." "What is he doing here?" she blurted. Quote A Storm of Swords - Jaime II Brienne was still awaiting his answer. Jaime said, "You are not old enough to have known Aerys Targaryen . . ." She would not hear it. "Aerys was mad and cruel, no one has ever denied that. He was still king, crowned and anointed. And you had sworn to protect him." "I know what I swore." They are made sacred by the church and they make their vows to the gods. Quote A Feast for Crows - Brienne I Ser Creighton was lost. "Sparrows?" "The sparrow is the humblest and most common of birds, as we are the humblest and most common of men." The septon had a lean sharp face and a short beard, grizzled grey and brown. His thin hair was pulled back and knotted behind his head, and his feet were bare and black, gnarled and hard as tree roots. "These are the bones of holy men, murdered for their faith. They served the Seven even unto death. Some starved, some were tortured. Septs have been despoiled, maidens and mothers raped by godless men and demon worshipers. Even silent sisters have been molested. Our Mother Above cries out in her anguish. It is time for all anointed knights to forsake their worldly masters and defend our Holy Faith. Come with us to the city, if you love the Seven." Quote A Feast for Crows - Cersei VI "The Iron Throne must defend the Faith," growled a hulking lout with a seven-pointed star painted on his brow. "A king who does not protect his people is no king at all." Mutters of assent went up from those around him. One man had the temerity to grasp Ser Meryn by the wrist, and say, "It is time for all anointed knights to forsake their worldly masters and defend our Holy Faith. Stand with us, ser, if you love the Seven." Quote A Feast for Crows - Cersei VI "It is, Your Grace," Lady Merryweather agreed. "The High Septon should have come to you. And these wretched sparrows . . ." "He feeds them, coddles them, blesses them. Yet will not bless the king." The blessing was an empty ritual, she knew, but rituals and ceremonies had power in the eyes of the ignorant. Aegon the Conqueror himself had dated the start of his realm from the day the High Septon anointed him in Oldtown. "This wretched priest will obey, or learn how weak and human he still is." Both knights and kings make their oaths to a higher authority than the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share Posted January 14, 2018 12 hours ago, Lord Varys said: If Jaime had cared about his vows, if he had wanted not to kill Aerys, he could have just not killed Aerys. It is not that this was necessary to save anyone. Rossart was taken care of. Jaime could have gone back into the throne room to distract Aerys, telling him the blood was indeed Tywin's (or the blood of some Lannister soldiers he had killed and that he had to take Aerys to safety now). That could have prevented him long enough from sending some other messenger to implement the wildfire plan. All he needed to do to ensure that Aerys remained harmless was giving him the impression Rossart was doing what he commanded him to do. Interesting viewpoint. Not an extreme solution-but still possible for Jaime to execute. Instead, he reacts in a hot-headed fashion. 11 hours ago, divica said: He should knock him out and run away with him and as many targs as he can. That is his duty! By joining the KG jamie left his family. He shouldn t be worried about them. He could have saved KL without killing aerys. Therefore keeping his vows and doing what he should have wanted. Indeed. One wonders why the rules must apply for Jon Snow (for example), but Jaime's reaction is seen as "a must". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis-something-Rose Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Jaime did what he needed to do in the moment. I always find it interesting that Jaime who was 16 at the time had this worry that Aerys might be right and get reborn as a dragon, so he slit his throat too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Lovejoy Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 8 hours ago, Lollygag said: I find it a very sensitive treatment as it acknowledges how hard standing up really is, the implications of it, the costs, and the long-term effect of witnessing such horrors feeling as though one couldn't stop them. (STANDS UP AND SLOW CLAPS) Extremely well put. 5 hours ago, Lollygag said: This quote brings into focus an idea I've been mulling over recently. It seems as though Jon, Jaime and Barristan are the same person at three different stages in terms of oaths. The KG cloak is very often linked to snow (and Snow!) as seen in Catelyn's and Jaime's conversation which I quoted above. Jon is living his choices in the moment. Jaime is experiencing the benefits and consequences of his choices. Barristan reflects upon those choices and their subsequent benefits and consequences and measures their weight. I'm rather skeptical about a literal Azor Ahai in the series, but I think that this is the true value of Azor Ahai, Last Hero, etc., myths. The fairy tale snow-white cloaks of the legendary KG where all is honor and beauty and strength are terribly misleading. You're on a roll in this thread, great post! I had not thought to compare Jon to Jaime and Barristan in their different stages of life before. @ravenous reader's post made me realize that in AGOT Jaime literally did say "take my hand... the things I do for love" and while it is not relevant to this particular thread it is the first time I've personally linked that as foreshadowing to Jaime in a way offering his hand to in a loving (not romantic love but human charity/kindness) act of preventing he rape of Brienne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share Posted January 14, 2018 5 hours ago, Lollygag said: This quote brings into focus an idea I've been mulling over recently. It seems as though Jon, Jaime and Barristan are the same person at three different stages in terms of oaths. The KG cloak is very often linked to snow (and Snow!) as seen in Catelyn's and Jaime's conversation which I quoted above. Jon is living his choices in the moment. Jaime is experiencing the benefits and consequences of his choices. Barristan reflects upon those choices and their subsequent benefits and consequences and measures their weight. I'm rather skeptical about a literal Azor Ahai in the series, but I think that this is the true value of Azor Ahai, Last Hero, etc., myths. The fairy tale snow-white cloaks of the legendary KG where all is honor and beauty and strength are terribly misleading. Excellent. One of the reasons I've opened this thread-comparisons with other characters who seem to have, or once had a seemingly different role in Westerosi society. Are they really that different though? @LynnS and @ravenous reader also, great contribution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandru Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 3 hours ago, LynnS said: The knights of the Kingsguard must foresake their first vow to defend and protect the weak and the innocent in the face of Aerys' brutality. To turn a blind eye, to hear nothing, to do nothing. So we get Sandor's judgement that there are no true knights. The honor of the kingsguard is a fraud, their knight's vow is worthless, their king's obligation to them or the people he governs is non-existent. The pledge to protect is broken. The Kingsguard are dishonored in every way. Well, we don't actually know what vows the knights of the Kingsguard take. We've seen the Night's Watch vow many times, have seen Brienne and Catelyn's exchange of vows, but we do not know about the Kingsguard. Do they layer on oaths supplanting their knights' vows? Or does the Kingsguard oath replace them? We just don't know. However.... 58 minutes ago, LynnS said: The office of the Kingsguard is an old institution that predates Aerys. Their obligation is to the 'throne' more than any one person who sits on it. They were never meant to be glorified body guards or henchmen. So we have them giving up their personal status and ambitions in favor of the realm, not unlike the oath of the Night's Watch. The office of the king or queen is given for the protection, peace, prosperity and justice for the realm. I would say that when the sovereign breaks the pledge to protect or becomes a danger to the realm; that it's the duty of the KG to remove him or her, just as it is their duty to protect the sovereign in the course of carrying their duty to the realm. When that doesn't happen and the KG are false knights; we get the rise of the Faith Militant or groups like them to bring the crown to account. I strongly disagree that the Kingsguard's vow is "to the realm" or even to the throne. From the very beginning, Kings have established that their guard will not be made up of the best and the brightest knights, but those most loyal TO THEM. The very idea of a group of swordsmen and fighters having responsibility for making sure the sovereign is "worthy" is absurd and actually kind of horrifying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 14 minutes ago, zandru said: Well, we don't actually know what vows the knights of the Kingsguard take. We've seen the Night's Watch vow many times, have seen Brienne and Catelyn's exchange of vows, but we do not know about the Kingsguard. Do they layer on oaths supplanting their knights' vows? Or does the Kingsguard oath replace them? We just don't know. However.... I strongly disagree that the Kingsguard's vow is "to the realm" or even to the throne. From the very beginning, Kings have established that their guard will not be made up of the best and the brightest knights, but those most loyal TO THEM. The very idea of a group of swordsmen and fighters having responsibility for making sure the sovereign is "worthy" is absurd and actually kind of horrifying. I can accept that you disagree and I expect most people will not view it this way. But when you throw out words like 'absurd'; I don't want to continue the discussion with you. Don't let your head explode just because something is reframed in a manner that you haven't considered before. We're told that knights are anointed to become knights. It isn't the regent who anoints them, it's the church. Just as British king or queen is annointed by the church rather than parliament. They answer to a higher authority than the crown. When the KG fail to act; then the Faith Militant arises to remove a king who is not a king. Whatever the KG has become; I think it was not only put in place to protect the office of the sovereign but to act as safeguard for the realm as well. The KG is a higher office than acting as thugs and bully boys for the crown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandru Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 1 hour ago, LynnS said: when you throw out words like 'absurd'; I don't want to continue the discussion with you. Don't let your head explode just because something is reframed in a manner that you haven't considered before. Don't think it's MY head that's "exploding" here... Note also: the Faith Militant was ended well over a century earlier, by Maegar the Cruel. The church of the seven doesn't determine who rules. The fact that it still has a ceremonial role in consecrating members of the Kingsguard and folks who happen to be knighted in Kings Landing doesn't give it any major ruling powers. And really, do you think a ruler's bodyguard, sworn (as far as we know) above all else to protect his person, should also be deciding if he's ruling well enough? What king would permit such a thing? As we know from the 20th century here on Terra, psychiatric judgements are often abused to stifle dissent and get rid of inconvenient people. Giving this power (as a duty!) to a group of folks who main training is violence and efficient slaughter would not be a good idea. For example: how would you like it for Gregor Clegane to sit in judgement over your own decision making? I know you're not reading this, but anyone who might be might give it a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 1 minute ago, zandru said: Don't think it's MY head that's "exploding" here... Note also: the Faith Militant was ended well over a century earlier, by Maegar the Cruel. The church of the seven doesn't determine who rules. The fact that it still has a ceremonial role in consecrating members of the Kingsguard and folks who happen to be knighted in Kings Landing doesn't give it any major ruling powers. And really, do you think a ruler's bodyguard, sworn (as far as we know) above all else to protect his person, should also be deciding if he's ruling well enough? What king would permit such a thing? As we know from the 20th century here on Terra, psychiatric judgements are often abused to stifle dissent and get rid of inconvenient people. Giving this power (as a duty!) to a group of folks who main training is violence and efficient slaughter would not be a good idea. For example: how would you like it for Gregor Clegane to sit in judgement over your own decision making? I know you're not reading this, but anyone who might be might give it a thought. What do you think Barristan Selmy or Arthur Dayne would have done in Jaime's position? Is the main training of knight to be as violent and efficient in slaughter as possible? The KG have fallen low indeed. And yes, you are over-reacting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 2 hours ago, LynnS said: The office of the Kingsguard is an old institution that predates Aerys. Their obligation is to the 'throne' more than any one person who sits on it. Their obligation is to the king, personally. He is the one they swear their vows to, not some abstract 'throne'. This is a medieval monarchy where power is very much personal, held by people and families, not abstract states. The duty of the Kingsguard is towards the king and his family, not the Realm or the king's subjects. If the king and his family live and the Realm burns then a Kingsguard has done his duty. 2 hours ago, LynnS said: They were never meant to be glorified body guards or henchmen. So we have them giving up their personal status and ambitions in favor of the realm, not unlike the oath of the Night's Watch. They give up their status and ambitions to be loyal to the king. Only the king. Not the Realm or some higher purpose. That's the brilliance of Visenya's creation. The Kingsguard vows are modeled after the NW vows but their purpose is not to protect the common good or the realms of man. Only the king. And perhaps the royal family, too, if the king is inclined to extend KG protection to his family. 2 hours ago, LynnS said: The office of the king or queen is given for the protection, peace, prosperity and justice for the realm. I would say that when the sovereign breaks the pledge to protect or becomes a danger to the realm; that it's the duty of the KG to remove him or her, just as it is their duty to protect the sovereign in the course of carrying their duty to the realm. When that doesn't happen and the KG are false knights; we get the rise of the Faith Militant or groups like them to bring the crown to account. That is pretty much false. This isn't a constitutional monarchy nor is there any indication that any king or lord really cares about the well-being of his subjects or the common people (if that was the case they would likely not exploit the commoners they way they do, right?). They pretend to care about that, and do their best to keep them distracted so that there are no revolutions and rebellions threatening their power. The Kingsguard has no right to interfere with the decisions or commands of the king or the governance of the Realm. They are mainly bodyguards - and any other jobs they might have (serving as commanders, advisers, etc.) are given to them by the king. It is also pretty clear that a knight's vows are of lesser importance than the Kingsguard vows. Just as the NW vows are more important than a knight's vows. Many men can become knights, but only seven knights can become Kingsguard. And nobody is forced to join the White Swords. It is your choice. The idea that you can pledge yourself to your king the way a Kingsguard does and at the same continue to live your life according to your hedge knight ideals is pretty much insane. And especially Jaime deserves no pity in all that. He didn't join Aerys II's Kingsguard before the Duskendale. He spoke his vows at Harrenhal. He knew what Aerys II was yet he deliberately chose to become the thug and bodyguard of a madman. That isn't just folly or a mistake, that is a deliberate choice. Anyone making that decision has no right to complain afterwards. The idea that the king promises stuff in return to the vows a Kingsguard makes is also not supported by textual evidence. Technically the average lord taking the average sworn sword into his service is striking a deal with such a person (e.g. Cat and Brienne or Osgrey and Dunk) but the king is the king. He is not some lord, he is the king. Everybody owes allegiance to him, anyway. And the Kingsguard is a military order with a strict chain of command. You join that order not because you want to think for yourself but because you want obey every command your kings gives you, no questions asked. If that's not what you want to do then the KG isn't the right place for you. 2 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said: Interesting viewpoint. Not an extreme solution-but still possible for Jaime to execute. Instead, he reacts in a hot-headed fashion. The idea that Jaime 'needed to kill' Aerys II to save the city is pretty much insane. And nobody in the books ever said that this was the case. Jaime comes off as more sympathetic in ASoS when he tells his little tale because the entire scope of Aerys' madness is revealed in that tale, but the facts as presented by Jaime himself do not indicate that this whole thing was a moral dilemma of any kind. It wasn't the certain death of hundreds of thousands of people on the one side against the life of Aerys II. It was whether Aerys II was killed by Jaime Lannister himself or whether he was killed by Tywin Lannister's men with Jaime Lannister's help. And Jaime simply didn't want to go with option 2. He wanted to kill Aerys. He wanted to kill him all along. That's why he was wearing the golden armor instead of the white armor. He was a Lannister, after all, and he seems to have made his decision when Aerys II commanded him to kill his own father. If George had wanted to make that a real dilemma he should have created a different scenario. One in which Aerys II was actually about to physically fire the bomb rather than being under the impression that he had already done that through his man Rossart. If Jaime hadn't told Aerys about Rossart Aerys wouldn't even have come up with the idea to perhaps send other men to the alchemists. And considering that no one was in the throne room - and Jaime a very strong guy - Aerys simply had no chance to escape after Jaime had told him the truth. He could have overpowered or knocked him out as easily as he killed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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