George Martin's Message

[Leo of House Cartel]

@Ponzi Scheme  

I don't think I equated anything of the sort. If the shoe was on the other foot then I would be advocating that Roose and his noble kin must avoid a deal with the dastardly Lord Snow.

 

[Curled Finger]

23 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

I don't have the same impression of Jon as you do.  He started a fight with Ramsay when he should have tried to keep the peace.  He needs the Boltons more than he needs Arya.  Arya is useless at the wall.  A smart and disciplined leader would know that and put Arya out of his mind to focus on more important stuff.  I like the op's advice regarding Stannis.  If the man really wants to put the interest of the people ahead of his own he would give up any claims he thinks he has and make peace with the Boltons.  The wall and the north will need every able bodied people to fight.  Attacking Winterfell will diminish the armies and use up needed supplies. 

 

As I am fond of saying, ASOIAF speaks to each reader differently.  I never saw Jon pick a fight with Ramsay.   Ramsay goaded Jon with the Pink Letter.  Considering the peace Jon worked so hard to bring to the far north, this challenge and threat from Ramsay Bolton directly relates to the peace he's already made.  Jon is responsible for the care of Stannis' family, who was also threatened, not to mention the critical person in his peace, Mance Rayder.  Yes, marching to battle with Ramsay Bolton may have seemed rash to some who value vows to the Nights watch over peace to the entire north.   Add a favored little sister and of course he's moved to march.  There is far more peace at stake than that of the Wildlings and Nights Watch.   That said, perhaps you see some way peace could be made between Stannis and Roose Bolton?  Do you see anything more important than peace to the entire north?  I'm not sure how Jon could have made the choice not to march.  However, I am open to reading some.  

[divica]

3 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

As I am fond of saying, ASOIAF speaks to each reader differently.  I never saw Jon pick a fight with Ramsay.   Ramsay goaded Jon with the Pink Letter.  Considering the peace Jon worked so hard to bring to the far north, this challenge and threat from Ramsay Bolton directly relates to the peace he's already made.  Jon is responsible for the care of Stannis' family, who was also threatened, not to mention the critical person in his peace, Mance Rayder.  Yes, marching to battle with Ramsay Bolton may have seemed rash to some who value vows to the Nights watch over peace to the entire north.   Add a favored little sister and of course he's moved to march.  There is far more peace at stake than that of the Wildlings and Nights Watch.   That said, perhaps you see some way peace could be made between Stannis and Roose Bolton?  Do you see anything more important than peace to the entire north?  I'm not sure how Jon could have made the choice not to march.  However, I am open to reading some.  

There is another interesting thing to think about. What did the person that sent the letter know about the conflict between the NW and wildlings. Because when mance is about to leave he thinks the weeper is preparing an attack on the Wall nobody knows about tormund.

So what would jon do with 400 NW brothers and some hundreds wildlings that no one knows what will do if they get a chance to rebel? I think the objective of the letter is to show that if they don t send the hostages the sender wants the watch is doomed. In adition it is known that the NW have killed a Lord comander a litle time ago. So they aren t properly a loyal bunch...

[Curled Finger]

3 minutes ago, divica said:

There is another interesting thing to think about. What did the person that sent the letter know about the conflict between the NW and wildlings. Because when mance is about to leave he thinks the weeper is preparing an attack on the Wall nobody knows about tormund.

So what would jon do with 400 NW brothers and some hundreds wildlings that no one knows what will do if they get a chance to rebel? I think the objective of the letter is to show that if they don t send the hostages the sender wants the watch is doomed. In adition it is known that the NW have killed a Lord comander a litle time ago. So they aren t properly a loyal bunch...

There is a lot to all the drama North.  I suppose we will find out someday.  

Which LC did they kill a little time ago, divica?   I remember the NK, but that was long ago.   Who did I miss? 

[Darth Sidious]

This basically then is a problem of human nature.  The heart in conflict with itself.  The desire to get even vs. recognizing the need for peace. Ruling is a public service where the welfare of the majority of people are the priority.  The majority in Westeros are the regular folk, the low-born.  I can't recall a single decision ever made in this saga where the welfare of the majority low-born were given priority over what the nobleman wanted to do.  Can you change people without changing human nature itself?  I guess we will find out.  

I cannot see humans living with nature like the Children of the Forest do.  Humans are selfish and destructive.  Humans are takers.  Maybe chopping down too many weirwoods is what brought on this large scale climate change.  We know it's related to magic.  The Children had to have had some way of blocking the White Walkers in the past but the deforestations have weakened their powers.   What the Children do is not necessarily moral because they fed blood to the trees.  Animal and human sacrifices nourished those detestable trees.  But every living thing has a purpose in the eco system and distasteful to us as it may be, those weirwoods may be necessary for survival.  There were no human populations in Westeros before the arrival of the first men.  Perhaps the real solution to this problem will require humans to migrate back to Essos.  Everyone, low-born and high-born, gets to start on an equal footing because the power of the nobility is tied to their land.  

[divica]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

There is a lot to all the drama North.  I suppose we will find out someday.  

Which LC did they kill a little time ago, divica?   I remember the NK, but that was long ago.   Who did I miss? 

mormont at crasters keep.

I was saying the NW turned on their LC...

 

[Curled Finger]

17 minutes ago, divica said:

mormont at crasters keep.

I was saying the NW turned on their LC...

 

Duh.  Of course!  Thank you Lady, I wasn't thinking that little time ago.   And it's a good point.   I tend to think of Jon's small group of "good" brothers when it's clear there are meaner "bad" brothers, like those at Crasters.   The majority of the Nights Watch is probably somewhere between the camps.   

[Ralphis Baratheon]

That no matter how dire your circumstances are you should always break your fast with a hearty meal that takes at least a few sentences to describe. 

[Ser Leftwich]

On 1/14/2018 at 11:50 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

As I have said before, you are mistaken if you think Martin doesn't dish out karmic justice in this story. Off the top of my head:

Joffrey, Vargo Hoat, Jaime Lannister, Rattleshirt, Gregor Clegane, the Tickler, the Freys in the Frey pies, Janos Slynt, Dareon the Deserter with the Good Boots, Viserys, Khal Drogo, Theon Greyjoy, Tywin Lannister and Aerys Targaryen would probably disagree with you.

The fact that the likes of Cersei, Roose, Ramsay, Littlefinger and Walder Frey are not on that list yet is almost certainly just because Martin is such a slow writer.

 

Even Ned. Technically, he committed treason by not telling Robert about Jon:

"I am Eddard Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Hand of the King," he said more loudly, his voice carrying across the plaza, "and I come before you to confess my treason in the sight of gods and men."

It is round-about, but even Ned got a punishment he earned, if not deserved.

ETA: I think Martin is very much of the Tom Stoppard school of writing tragedy: “The bad end unhappily; the good, unluckily. That is what tragedy means.”

[Jaehaerys Tyrell]

14 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

That no matter how dire your circumstances are you should always break your fast with a hearty meal that takes at least a few sentences to describe. 

lmao

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

Martin has a message for sure.  There are different types of readers though.  Some can enjoy the story without thinking too deeply about it.  You know the types.  They read the story for action, swords, tits, dragons, wolves, and travel.  I do suspect that the fans on this site are all like me, the kind who digs into the story and extracts every bit of information from those words as if hunting for treasure.  The message will come through to the few.   But like I said, the reader can enjoy the story without really understanding the deeper message.

Cooperation may not mean what people think it means.  Massing a big army against white walkers who can add the dead to their army doesn't seem like a good idea to me.  The more you fight the bigger the enemy gets.  Running away is the better option.  Cooperation may mean the south accepting refugees from the north and the Reach giving away food to the starving people. 

[Aline de Gavrillac]

George has not only a message to his fans but he also wants to challenge our beliefs and face some very uncomfortable truths.  The main message is to think through and see beyond the bullcrap.  The complexity of aSoIaF is not in the plot but rather in the many messages in between those pages and in between the lines. 

Cooperation is just one of many such message.  I don't believe you can say they won't cooperate.  That's oversimplication for George.  It's more accurate to say some will cooperate and most will not.  And on the matter of people who sinned getting their just desserts; I can't say that's an accurate reflection of reality.  The truth is (remember 'uncomfortable truths) many who sinned get away with it.  I would not come to the conclusion, for example, Littlefinger getting punished for his crimes.  Criminals have gotten away without retribution.  Do not automatically assume the people who hurt your favorite characters will get punished.  The only one who can punish with accuracy and to the appropriate degree is a god and many will argue this is not so.  So if a god or gods are not going to intervene in the story then this idea of wrongdoers getting punished is false hope. 

 

[HoodedCrow]

Well, Marin is the god author so some well derived an some heartbreaking underved fates are in store.

[Angel Eyes]

1. Love is worthless
2. There is no good and evil, there is only power... and those too weak to seek it.

 

I just hope it isn't true.

 

[Frey Kings]

I guarantee if the story started out with the Freys, no one would hate them

We stand together!!!

 

 

[Nowy Tends]

1 hour ago, Frey Kings said:

I guarantee if the story started out with the Freys, no one would hate them

 

I guarantee if the story started out with Rorge and Biter everyone would love them…

[Darth Sidious]

2 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

I guarantee if the story started out with the Freys, no one would hate them

We stand together!!!

 

 

The POV perspective does give the characters who have their own chapters a big advantage.  The reader gets to see everything through their eyes and through their own biases.  The Starks have a lot of POVs so many readers are biased towards them.  But if you really look at their history, they are responsible for two wars that brought death and sorrow to the kingdom.  Look at Roose Bolton.  He got dragged into the rebellion because Rickard Stark couldn't manage his kids.  Rickard stubbornly meant to proceed with his marriage alliances even when he knew it would undermine the Targaryen monarchs.  Rickard was not a loyal man to his king.  Catelyn Tully Stark kidnaps a Lannister.  Robb calls his banner and chose war rather than submit to the mercy of his monarch.  The Starks are a stubborn lot.  Roose probably believes he can bring peace to the north and run it better than the Starks could.

[chrisdaw]

The Starks are right, particularly Ned. And Ned is the Stark backbone. The whole series is an argument in favour of his actions, his madness of mercy and refusal to harm a child for a greater good. His principles will be adhered to in the end game by at least one character, seemingly against necessity, but be the direct cause of victory in TWFTD.

Lyanna's and Brandon's actions the series will denounce, but they're off on the side.

[Angel Eyes]

19 hours ago, Agent Orange said:

The POV perspective does give the characters who have their own chapters a big advantage.  The reader gets to see everything through their eyes and through their own biases.  The Starks have a lot of POVs so many readers are biased towards them.  But if you really look at their history, they are responsible for two wars that brought death and sorrow to the kingdom.  Look at Roose Bolton.  He got dragged into the rebellion because Rickard Stark couldn't manage his kids.  Rickard stubbornly meant to proceed with his marriage alliances even when he knew it would undermine the Targaryen monarchs.  Rickard was not a loyal man to his king.  Catelyn Tully Stark kidnaps a Lannister.  Robb calls his banner and chose war rather than submit to the mercy of his monarch.  The Starks are a stubborn lot.  Roose probably believes he can bring peace to the north and run it better than the Starks could.

And Roose is a sadistic rapist.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 1/23/2018 at 5:30 PM, chrisdaw said:

The Starks are right, particularly Ned. And Ned is the Stark backbone. The whole series is an argument in favour of his actions, his madness of mercy and refusal to harm a child for a greater good. His principles will be adhered to in the end game by at least one character, seemingly against necessity, but be the direct cause of victory in TWFTD.

Lyanna's and Brandon's actions the series will denounce, but they're off on the side.

Maybe you can say positive things about Ned.  But you cannot say that about Robb, Arya, and Jon.  Robb broke his oath.  Arya is a senseless murderer.  Jon is an oathbreaker and a traitor to the night's watch who was about to attack the new governor of the north.  Ned is the exception.