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Curled Finger

When the Dead Come Knocking

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22 hours ago, Julia H. said:

I have never thought of it before that Brienne may actually have died and been resurrected.

 

14 hours ago, Seams said:

Brienne has things in common with Lyanna, especially if Lyanna is (or if GRRM wants us to suspect she is) the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

Wait wait wait....are we talking about vengeful warrior-women revenants scouring the Riverlands and seeking justice for one that has been wronged via the death of a child?     

Because if we are, count me in.

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37 minutes ago, LynnS said:

With the exception of the drowned god; who's rituals are a confused version of the greenseers of the old gods

Why do you think the Old Gods and the Drowned one are related? I'm genuinely curious, I never saw a connection there. The religion belief of the Iron Islands seem to be based on a "two opposing forces" way o seeing things (Drowned God versus the Storm God) which is somewhat similar to the philosophy of R'hollorism (Lord of Light versus the great Other).

The Old Gods are referred in the books as "the gods of the forest, stream, and stone, the old gods whose names are secret" (Bran), "the nameless gods of the trees and the wolves and the snows"(Samwell)  and "nameless gods of wood and hill and field" (Viramyr). That makes me think is a sort of system of belief that is very different from the one the Ironborn practice. The Ironborn have priests and rituals and even baptism, they have an organized religion. The Old Gods are the forces of Nature Itself, personified. There's no need for priests, there are no hymns, so every act can be a prayer (there are even wordless prayers referenced in the books). It's very core seems to be personal practice, as we see with Ned, Bran, Jon and Arya in different points of the narrative. 

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14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Thanks Springwatch.  I believe, but cannot verify because if I do I will lose my place and that's always bad, but I believe you can find @Seams original topic about Just Ice (I think that was the name of the topic) in her signatures.   If not, just look for Just Ice to see where that journey began.   This is not a new thing and she's dedicated a great deal of thought and research to it.  It's been my pleasure to watch the thoughts spin and connect and grow.  All well worth reading if you haven't yet.  

Thanks @Curled Finger.

I'll start with a speed read of the justice highlights in @Seams's Puns and Wordplay and Intriguing Mystery Swords, and your own Lets Find the Swords.

Lots of material already! I'll add my 2 cents to bottom.

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5 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Why do you think the Old Gods and the Drowned one are related? I'm genuinely curious, I never saw a connection there. The religion belief of the Iron Islands seem to be based on a "two opposing forces" way o seeing things (Drowned God versus the Storm God) which is somewhat similar to the philosophy of R'hollorism (Lord of Light versus the great Other).

The Old Gods are referred in the books as "the gods of the forest, stream, and stone, the old gods whose names are secret" (Bran), "the nameless gods of the trees and the wolves and the snows"(Samwell)  and "nameless gods of wood and hill and field" (Viramyr). That makes me think is a sort of system of belief that is very different from the one the Ironborn practice. The Ironborn have priests and rituals and even baptism, they have an organized religion. The Old Gods are the forces of Nature Itself, personified. There's no need for priests, there are no hymns, so every act can be a prayer (there are even wordless prayers referenced in the books). It's very core seems to be personal practice, as we see with Ned, Bran, Jon and Arya in different points of the narrative. 

@ravenous readerI think the Poetess of Nennymoans can better explain the under the sea references.   I've just realized that there is an identifiable drowned god when I compared the Forsaken Chapter and Euron's words about the drowned god's kiss, wet and salty, and Bran's passage through the Black Gate.  As for the Storm Gods, that's a good question. 

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I compare the three headed god Trios to Whitetree+Black Gate+Thoros.  One head consumes, the third head disgorges and nobody knows what the middle head does.

:) Just change their order a bit - Whitetree + Thoros + Black Gate.

First head consumes, second head fries food (spiritual food? souls?) / makes people be reborn thru cleansing by fire, and third gives them new life, brings them back to world of living / disgorges.

(Whitetree feed on blood. And it also consumes souls of Children and all those greenseers from that cave.)

Edited by Megorova

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23 minutes ago, Megorova said:

:) Just change their order a bit - Whitetree + Thoros + Black Gate.

First head consumes, second head fries food (spiritual food? souls?) / makes people be reborn thru cleansing by fire, and third gives them new life, brings them back to world of living / disgorges.

The second head opens it's mouth to let you pass through the Wall or access other dimensions.  The third head gives the kiss of fire.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Ugly Little Girl

One time, the girl remembered, the Sailor's Wife had walked her rounds with her and told her tales of the city's stranger gods. "That is the house of the Great Shepherd. Three-headed Trios has that tower with three turrets. The first head devours the dying, and the reborn emerge from the third. I don't know what the middle head's supposed to do.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

"Then pass," the door said. Its lips opened, wide and wider and wider still, until nothing at all remained but a great gaping mouth in a ring of wrinkles. Sam stepped aside and waved Jojen through ahead of him. Summer followed, sniffing as he went, and then it was Bran's turn. Hodor ducked, but not low enough. The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon II

Whitetree, the village was named on Sam's old maps. Jon did not think it much of a village. Four tumbledown one-room houses of unmortared stone surrounded an empty sheepfold and a well. The houses were roofed with sod, the windows shuttered with ragged pieces of hide. And above them loomed the pale limbs and dark red leaves of a monstrous great weirwood.

It was the biggest tree Jon Snow had ever seen, the trunk near eight feet wide, the branches spreading so far that the entire village was shaded beneath their canopy. The size did not disturb him so much as the face . . . the mouth especially, no simple carved slash, but a jagged hollow large enough to swallow a sheep.

Those are not sheep bones, though. Nor is that a sheep's skull in the ashes

 

Edited by LynnS

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I definetely see Bran's passage through the Balck Gate as him being "anointed" by the Old Gods. It's a very recognizable image for the readers, a drop on the forehead evokes the Catholic ritual of baptism, which is something universally well known throughout modern western societies. 'Salty' and 'wet' are descriptives of both tears and seawater, and it's true these two are frequently used as literary devices representing each other. While I don't see Bran's "tear" as a conection with the Drowned God, it's a possibility we should consider :) 

Edited by Lady Dacey

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8 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Thanks, @Curled Finger. It's another great topic! I'll do some reading about the swords.

About death/near death being essential for a re-birth - I think this is true; but Jaquen's rules apply, and the gods of death will accept a proxy: 'The Red God has his due, sweet girl, and only death may pay for life. This girl took three that were his. This girl must give three in their places.' (We're reminded of proxies again with Tommen's whipping boy.)

Bran and Rickon should have died in the sack of Winterfell; but they live on, and the miller's boys take their place.

I'm tempted to include Doreah as a representative of Dany's early compliant, sex-kitten self. Doreah died in the face of the harsh realities of the Red Waste.

There could be many more, but dead minor characters slip under my radar so easily!

This opens up a big possibility for Jaime. Hyle Hunt, like Jaime, was initially dismissive and cruel to Brienne, but later grew to like her. Hyle even wants to marry her. Given that Hyle is close to death, and Jaime approaching a crossroads in his life, it seems very much like another proxy death is on the cards - Jaime will survive and switch paths.

Which leaves Pod. Who is a look-alike to Ilyn, and at risk of death just as much as Hyle is. Will he die to allow Ilyn to change paths? It's a difficult thought for me, because I want Pod to be Justice re-born, but there could be another way. Maybe Ilyn will arrive and see the injustice that has been done to Pod, and his spirit will revive in righteous anger.

Of course, Brienne can't be coerced by LSH unless at least one of her companions is still alive, so it's one or the other. No question, they're still in mortal danger though.

Tie it together for me Springwatch?   I get the essence of the meaning of Jaquen's deal with Arya.  The Red god must have his due and is owed 3 lives to replace those Arya saved.   I still wonder if this is really a R'hllor thing or if it is a Faceless Man thing.   I don't recall any other mention of this justice from Mel or any of the other Red Priests.  I don't even really recall it among the teachings of the Kindly Man.   Where did this idea come from?  Forgive me if there are 700 quotes and I've misunderstood them all.   

I totally get where you're coming from in replacement death.  That allows the original "target" to go on in anonymity or with a new identity, thereby being reborn.  With the many near misses some of our characters have endured, there really does seem to be a replacement sort of thing going on throughout the tale.  

It never blipped on my radar that Hyle would replace Jamie in death.   Brilliant--and keeping completely in line with your stream of logic.  I like that idea very much.

Our little Pod <SIGH>...if you've had a chance to read the exchanges @aryagonnakill#2 and I had earlier I think there is a chance that our sweet boy was hanged before Brienne not simultaneously.  In that Pod, Brienne, Hyle and most likely Jamie are in a most extraordinary company that has the proven power to restore life from death, anything could happen.   Jamie has developed a relationship with Illyn which may or may not play into this whole drama.  Is Illyn merely a servant or has he become Jamie's friend being the only one to know Jamie's true thoughts?  Though I do think Pod has died, I refuse to give up on him.   Anything could happen here.   

A good post, my friend.   I look so forward to your reply.   

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15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I just loved the last bit about Brienne becoming Ser Galladon, The Maiden and Just Maid.  Just beautiful and so powerful, Seams.  

BTW, I directed @Springwatchto read your excellent 1st topic on Just Ice.   That was the name of the topic, Just Ice?  

I don't think I ever wrote a freestanding topic about the possibility of "Ice" splitting from "Justice." Just kept tossing it in as a comment in other topics.

One point is that King Tristifer Mudd was known as The Hammer of Justice. (Catelyn and Robb have a chat near his tomb just before the Red Wedding.) I speculated that Robert came to represent the hammer and Ned represented the Justice side of that nickname.

Justice split again, however, as the generations lost sight of the original concept. Ned's sword was known as Ice because he followed the letter of the law mindlessly and obediently, without thinking about truly just behaviors and outcomes. His behavior was no longer "Just," it was merely "icy."

This is a link exploring some ideas about the sword Ice as "just Ice".

I also speculated about a relationship between (Just)Ice and the lost Valyrian steel sword known as Truth.

The association between Ser Ilyn Payne and the sword Ice also built up over several comments in different threads, I suspect.

I did write a separate topic equating Theon to the sword Ice or to the mother of the sword Ice.

Edit: Oh, I see Springwatch has found some links that interest him. This is another one of those lively threads that moves much faster than I can keep up with. I'm glad if my old stuff is useful in any way.

Edited by Seams

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4 hours ago, Faera said:

On a phone again... so fiddly!

Well, as I said in my response to @Julia H. above, the connection between Bran and Jon is so compelling to me because when you consider all the Starks are reported to be wargs, it is interesting that of all the siblings he could have invaded the dreams of - Robb, Sansa, Arya etc - it is Jon, the furthest away, that his consciousness reaches. That Bran also “touched” Jon through Ghost, or rather, spoke to Jon while he was inside Ghost also sets the president that Bran can communicate with Jon/Ghost without disrupting their connection. This might even give Bran the opportunity to show Jon why he needs to wake up or rejoin his body. That in a sense is a type rebirth as Jon would be abandoning his second life to return to the bloody and damaged body of the first, a body that might have died but for the intervention of those who think Jon’s continuation is worth protecting — all those wildlings and their leaders, a fair chunk of the Night’s Watch, Alys etc. Jon might awake having had his third eye truly opened by Bran. He will go back enlightened... at least, I hope he will!

(I remember reading a while back a theory that Bran might actually gain the ability to skinchange Jon himself- not sure about that one but just imagine it!)

Brienne’s journey is an interesting one because it is so heavily tied both to her representing the ideal image of what a knight should be yet being treated as “a freak” because she is so counter to the ideal for a woman. Compare her to other women and girls who are less conventional -- Arya, Meera, the Sand Snakes — I would still consider all of them to be distinctly feminine. Even Obara, who is the closest to a "Brienne" character, chose her father's spear over a "woman's weapon" of tears yet did not necessarily choose a male role of "Knight", just a traditionally masculine weapon. The other Sand Snakes are more like "femme fatals" - deadly women who use women's weapons of poison and concealed daggers. You can throw Arya in that category, too. Finally, someone like Meera seems to have grown up without the notion of skills with arms as a necessarily masculine role -- there is no indication that Howland training her to fight was "odd", indicating that being a huntress is not unusual at all in the crannogs. Same again with Arya -- faceless men are male or female, as genderless as the Stranger.

In fact, I would say these other women are completely counter to the overly masculine nature of knighthood and knights: Meera sees knights as the "baddies" who try to take her home but end up dead in the bottom of the quagmires, and the Sand Snakes are all different aspects of Oberyn - a father who embodied a great skill as a warrior and intellectual yet was no conventional knight. As for Arya... well, her experience of knights comes from Gregor Clegane. Enough said. Even Sandor would have reinforced that notion of the ugliness of knighthood through his own disgust at it.

Brienne, thus, is almost too good to be true. She is living up to an ideal that does not exist. She has even on the long rambling journey trying to find Sansa - which we the readers know is a waste of time - leads her back to LS. Suddenly, all that honour of sticking to her word through thick and thin — being told to go home to her father, return the sword to Jaime and see her father, even getting proposed to by Hyle Hunt (who I genuinely think likes and admires her for herself despite his primary goal originally being winning a bet and marrying an heiress) — only to discover that the woman she was sworn to is now back and no longer capable of mercy. Brienne might have given up there and then... had it not been for little Pod.

Oh, Pod! I love that little guy. I have seen some suggesting that he’s some sort of Littlefinger agent or Cersei agent but no. I think what you see is what you get with Pod. This is a kid with massive abandonment issues, passing from one master to another. His loyalty to Tyrion is adorable— the fact he essentially begged Bronn for three days to go and see Tyrion told me this wasn’t a kid who wanted to do right by his master who he feels was teaching him. Then, he follows Brienne in the hopes of finding Tyrion if they find Sansa. One of the more heartbreaking moments for me was when he seemed genuinely hurt at being left by Tyrion. Pod’s later discomfort at sleeping separate from Brienne feeds again into his fear of abandonment. I agree their relationship isn’t strictly “maternal” but it is as close as — like Brienne has gained a little brother almost.

Bottom line: people believe in Brienne and I am curious to see if she is able to keep her pure view of what is “right” after this encounter with the Stoneheart.

Honestly, I’m wondering if I will ever be able to make it coherent! 

I swore when writing this topic that I would quit quoting everyone.   Now I see I went to work and you've all come here with such interesting stuff.  If I don't quote I will be lost, Faera, please forgive me.    I did read your reply to Julia H then to your humble host here.    Thank you for expanding on your thoughts here.  It has brought an entirely new way of thinking to my table at least. 

To the 1st, I'm very glad you brought up all the support Jon actually has.   Right or wrong, those who love him love him well.  Jon doesn't always appreciate the love he had at Winterfell, even though he falls short of calling his step mother an evil so and so.  He is nothing if not polite.  He knows his courtesies.  Jon's greatest obstacle is his lack of faith in himself.  I do hope, that akin to our own mass prayers for peace or recovery, that the love of his supporters will give him that faith in himself.  His vision is a very interesting place.  If we take Bran to be the Last Greenseer, perhaps the most powerful (compared to what we've seen of Bloodraven's er, talents), there is nothing preventing him from skin changing anyone, particularly a brother whom he joined while in unconscious warg with Ghost.   I doubt there is anything Bran couldn't connect with if he really set his mind to it.  He's reached out to Jon and Arya in their dreams.   Maybe Rickon and Sansa too--who knows?  He spoke to Theon through the tree.   Were the connections intentional?   I don't really know yet.   There is an awful lot of power amid the Stark kids, no crack pot is unreasonable at this point.

Excellent analysis of Pod.  You do a right nice job from your phone, Faera! 

 

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

The second head opens it's mouth to let you pass through the Wall or access other dimensions.  The third head gives the kiss of fire.

Ok.

I'm not disregarding your idea, I'm just offering a different angle.

What is on both sides of The Wall is already outside - 7K on one side of it, and The Land of Always Winter on the other side of The Wall. So the Black Gate doesn't lead somewhere, it leads out, out of The Wall. You go thru the Gate on one side of The Wall, and come out of the Gate on the other side of The Wall. It's not a way that leads somewhere, it's an exit out of The Wall.

Whitetree consumes souls, fire purifies them, and the Black Gate leads them out, back in the world of the living. And the Gate is burned because people were "fried" while they were inside the Gate, in a place between worlds, between life and death, in Purgatory.

Catholic encyclopedia - "Purgatory is commonly regarded as a cleansing by way of painful temporal punishment, which, like the eternal punishment of hell, is associated with the idea of fire."

And there's also water there - prayer with Holy water for the souls in Purgatory "By this holy water and by Thy precious blood, wash away all my sin, O Lord, and relieve the souls in purgatory." During that prayer the Holy water is poured on the grave, or on the ground.

So when Bran was going thru Black Gate, he was baptised by Holy water. Someone blessed his soul.

 

So actually it could be both options:

Whitetree, Fire, Black Gate (water);

or Whitetree, Black Gate (water), Fire <- ceremonial sacrifice first blessed with water, and then burned/cleaned by fire.

Or could be even in this order - Black Gate (was baptised by Holy water), then became part of Weirwood (and his soul was consumed by it), and last will be fire (so after returning on this side of The Wall, Bran will eventually meet with Red Priest or Pristess, to get one more "ingredient".)

So could be that Bran is the Prince that was promised - blessed by Old Gods, Drowned God, and R'hllor. Old Gods - ice, R'hllor - fire, Drowned God - mermaids - singing, add all three together and we have A Song of Ice and Fire.

But I hope not, because I want Jon or Rhaego to be the Prince. Or Dany.

P.S. Actually it created a seriously bad perspective for Bran's future - in the beginning he was a seed, then he was watered and grew into a tree/became a Whitetree, and then he will be burned by fire of R'hllor, as a sacrifice to stop the Long Night. Trees grow, and then become firewood. Poor Bran. :(

Edited by Megorova

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3 hours ago, Julia H. said:

The feasting actually happens in Theon's dream, when he sleeps in Eddard Stark's weirwood bed.

 

3 hours ago, Julia H. said:

and all of them are associated with Old Gods magic (weirwood stump, weirwood bed, the Wall and its surroundings).

Great post Julia H. One thing however, and I don't mean to veer off topic and distract from the interesting and insightful discussion being had here by you and others on this thread, but I believe that Ned's bed being carved of Wierwood is a misconception held by many around here. Recently, I was having a discussion with a few forum members in regards to this matter - all of us who had believed this to be the case - but despite our efforts, none of us could find anything to confirm that in fact the bed was made of Wierwood. If you know of anything that could confirm this, I would greatly appreciate if you could point me in the right direction. 

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5 hours ago, Bullrout said:

People are who they are.  Maturation tempers emotions.  Experience improves judgment.  In the end though, people don't really change.  Opinions may change when confronted with more information.  The person itself doesn't change.  Jaime lost his hand so he can't afford to have the same arrogance.  Give him back his hand and  he reverts back to his arrogance. Jaime doesn't have much of a moral compass.  He thinks he has one now but let's see what happens when he is asked to sacrifice someone that actually means a great deal to him. Brienne is still the same person.  Her opinion of Jaime changed because she was confronted with more information but it did not change her as a person.  I fail to see a transformation here.  Brienne is not of the deep thinking type and she governs herself based on what she thinks honor demands.  Her opinion of  honor may change but she is a person who will remain guided by principles.  Jon is not going to change.  He's a very emotional man who is in love with Arya.  Maybe his love for Arya will survive in him when he comes back as an ice wight.  He gets a transformation alright but not what you're thinking.  He comes back as a wight with feelings for his little sister still.  He's an emo wight who will fight for the dead.  A wight who shows sensitivity and sheds a frozen tear while turning his victims into zombies to serve the great other.  A spark of feelings for the Starks will remain in his frozen heart as he marches to Winterfell with the army of the dead. 

I'm sorry, Bullrout--that really made me laugh.  That's 3 so far for anyone counting.   You've got interesting ideas in the face of Jamie's redemption arc.   You picked up on all the same things I did, though I admit I was perhaps less, er, convicted of my own thoughts on Jon.  

You seem pretty set in your ideas and I respect that.   I'm not here to change your mind, only to talk about these characters.  That said, thank you for posting your thoughts here.   I hope you will feel welcome to join in should the conversation move you.   

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5 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

In my headcanon all three of them are literally alive, while facing different manners of symbolic death.

Let's go one by one... starting with Jaime.

While Jon and Brienne are going through near-death (or truly deadly) situations, I believe Jaime is "safer" - he's had his symbolic death already (the unhanding, as @Lucius Lovejoy pointed out) and he has chosen to live, not without the invaluable help of the Moonmaid Brienne:

That was a turning point to Jaime, I believe. I see that Jaime is now in the place to return the favour to the maid of Tarth. We know from Kevin Jaime has been missing a while, but I believe he has either a) been kept a captive/sent on a mission by the BwB or b ) found a way to beguile them and scape together with Brienne. Where they're heading I can't begin to decipher, but I don't believe they're parting ways again, or that either of them has died. Which leads us to Brienne.

Brienne's arc through AFFC was one of misdirections and wrongways. While she got more and more lost in her search for Sansa, she also went deeper inside herself reflecting own how her experiences have made her guarded and untrusting. She's looking for "a maid of three-and-ten" she dubs her sister, and I believe she is also searching in her thoughts for the young maid she never was, but wishes she had been: 

She ultimatly rejects being helpless though - when she sees helpless Pod dying without lifting eyes. That's when she makes her choice to live - even if it means breaking her vows. She's meeting Jaime though, and I hope he can remind her honor isn't necessarily lost when you break a vow. I also hope he can prove himself worthy of her trust, and of course give her more reasons to enjoy living ;) (I'm a sucker for romance).   

I'm aligned with @Faera in thinking Jon will experience a dive into his consciousness like Bran did, a comatose experience that will last a while. I really don't like the idea of a fire-reanimated Jon - like @Julia H. I think Catelyn's story arc ended with her death, and I don't want to see a new character emerge from Jon like LSH emerged from Catelyn. I don't think GRRM has finished writing Jon's story, there is a lot of development to take place still, so Melissandre bringing him back from the dead doesn't make sense to me. People have proposed Val/Morna as possible witches to work an Old Gods related ressurection spell on Jon - I think this could work better in his arc, but I remain unconvinced. 

Very Nice.   I'm keeping a mental tally here of literal versus symbolic death votes here and the symbolic gang are overwhelmingly in the lead.   Though I do admit I'm grateful to those of you you humor me by entertaining my premises.   I don't need any of these characters to die, though I admit, the reader in me loves what Martin does with death.   I have read a great deal about Jamie and Jon's "resurrections" here an other places.  Truth is, Brienne doesn't even seem to need death so much as she could use a good hug and maybe a break.   Every adventure she has, does, as you say, teach her more about herself.   I have to take that to the next natural level and say she learns about honor, as that is what she is.  To hang for the lies against your honor are a horrible thing for this character.  I still cringe when I think about part of her face being bitten off.  Martin does like to obscure her beauty.  Jon needs to snap out of it and Jamie could use a good push in their stories.   How either of them find the snap or push is up for debate.  You have a far more optimistic outlook on Jamie's arc than I'm having these days and to be honest, it's nice and a bit reassuring.   Jon, though...I just don't know.  I wonder how many other lateral not dead ideas there are floating around out there for him.  One thing is clear, he is gravely injured if not dead.  

I'm glad you elaborated on your thoughts here.  Thanks, Lady.  

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1 hour ago, Seams said:

I don't think I ever wrote a freestanding topic about the possibility of "Ice" splitting from "Justice." Just kept tossing it in as a comment in other topics.

One point is that King Tristifer Mudd was known as The Hammer of Justice. (Catelyn and Robb have a chat near his tomb just before the Red Wedding.) I speculated that Robert came to represent the hammer and Ned represented the Justice side of that nickname.

Justice split again, however, as the generations lost sight of the original concept. Ned's sword was known as Ice because he followed the letter of the law mindlessly and obediently, without thinking about truly just behaviors and outcomes. His behavior was no longer "Just," it was merely "icy."

This is a link exploring some ideas about the sword Ice as "just Ice".

I also speculated about a relationship between (Just)Ice and the lost Valyrian steel sword known as Truth.

The association between Ser Ilyn Payne and the sword Ice also built up over several comments in different threads, I suspect.

I did write a separate topic equating Theon to the sword Ice or to the mother of the sword Ice.

Edit: Oh, I see Springwatch has found some links that interest him. This is another one of those lively threads that moves much faster than I can keep up with. I'm glad if my old stuff is useful in any way.

Thanks Seams.   We've had so many discussions together I do have trouble separating posts from topics as you are prolific in both realms.   You always bring deeper meaning to the discussion, whatever it's about.   

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5 hours ago, LynnS said:

I actually think Bran will have the ability to bring Jon back from the dead. 

As the drowned god, he may bring Jon back to life as a green man, not unlike Coldhands. Especially, since we have Coldhands telling Bran that he is Bran's monster.  The weirwood at Whitetree receives burnt offerings, it's mouth is blackened and full of ashes.  This brings Beric to mind who only remembers the taste of ash in his mouth and the GoHH who tells Thoros that his god has no power on her hill.  And yet Thoros brings Beric back to life in the cave amidst the roots of a weirwood.    

LynnS, am I understanding that you are thinking Coldhands may be a greenman?  Ding ding ding--another first on my register!   Has Bran transcended to godhood?   Come on now, you've got to give me more than 1 sentence and a little paragraph!   Like most of the gifts you give me, this is new and shiny--please explain more so that I can understand better?   

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5 hours ago, Megorova said:

It could be that she was hanged, but they took off the rope, prior Brienne actually died.

For example in a book of Alexander Dumas, Three Musketeers, one of musketeers (Athos) hanged his wife on a tree in a wood, and left her there to die. A bit later, Cardinal Richelieu and his people were passing nearby, and found her hanged. They took her off, and she was still alive. Later she changed her name to Lady Winter or Milady, and became one of main villains of the story.

While hanged, a person can die in one of two ways - either immediately because the neck broke, or slowly thru suffocation.

So it's likely that they stopped execution, and Brienne was hanging not long enough to completely suffocate. So there was no need to administer kiss of life. She was hanged, but didn't died. They released her, before she could have died from suffocation.

Thanks Megorova, my lame little goggle search didn't give me a lot and I am of a mind that time passed differently than what we read in both Jon and Brienne's chapters.  I know I need to learn a great deal more of the mechanics of stabbing and hanging, but Google is worried for my mental health now.   

It was good of you to bring Milady of the Three Musketeers up as this is a good classic fiction example of a hanging gone wrong.   It's a good possibility the hanging was stopped.  

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3 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

 

Wait wait wait....are we talking about vengeful warrior-women revenants scouring the Riverlands and seeking justice for one that has been wronged via the death of a child?     

Because if we are, count me in.

You are soooooooo much fun when you aren't just lurking!   Welcome again.  

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:
Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon II

Whitetree, the village

It was the biggest tree Jon Snow had ever seen, the mouth especially, no simple carved slash, but a jagged hollow large enough to swallow a sheep.

Oh, you meant THIS tree. I thought it was reference to Weirwood in general, to whole Netwoork, the one that now is consuming Bran's soul.

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42 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Oh, you meant THIS tree. I thought it was reference to Weirwood in general, to whole Netwoork, the one that now is consuming Bran's soul.

Yes, this tree.  It's directly north of the Black Gate and I think it's root system is large enough to reach the Wall and bust through the Night Fort. Some trees propagate through their root systems (silver maples for example).  So I think the ghost face that is the Black Gate is the greenseer at Whitetree.  The one that is fed burnt offerings of the dead or (un)dying. 

I don't think we are far apart on the symbolism or the drop of water anointing or baptizing Bran as he passes the gate.  Euron mocks the drowned god by giving Aeron salt water, the blessing of the drowned god.  Bran receives the blessing directly from the drowned god when he passes through it's mouth.  A form of communion with Bran as the blood and flesh of the sacrifice. 

Above all Euron doesn't believe that little gods of the weirwood can stop him.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - The Iron Captain

The priest raised a bony finger. "They pray to trees and golden idols and goat-headed abominations. False gods . . ."

"Just so," said Euron, "and for that sin I kill them all. I spill their blood upon the sea and sow their screaming women with my seed. Their little gods cannot stop me, so plainly they are false gods. I am more devout than even you, Aeron. Perhaps it should be you who kneels to me for blessing."

and so he mocks Bran in effigy as well.

Spoiler

He hangs Pyat Pree from the rafters after he has removed his legs in the Foresaken chapter.

The Ghost of High Heart tells us that the old golds are weak and feeble but they still have power.  The Black Gate that connects to the power of the Wall is probably in decline and can't be kept alive forever.  This is the drowned god that Euron mocks; taunting Aeron who thinks his god had abandoned him.  I think Bran is meant to replace him and battle godless outlanders and minions of the night.

Bran is the one who's name cannot be spoken.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Samwell IV

The living have no place at the feasts of the dead. It tore the heart from Sam to hold his silence then. Bran's not dead, Jon, he wanted to stay. He's with friends, and they're going north on a giant elk to find a three-eyed crow in the depths of the haunted forest. It sounded so mad that there were times Sam Tarly thought he must have dreamt it all, conjured it whole from fever and fear and hunger . . . but he would have blurted it out anyway, if he had not given his word.

Three times he had sworn to keep the secret; once to Bran himself, once to that strange boy Jojen Reed, and last of all to Coldhands. "The world believes the boy is dead," his rescuer had said as they parted. "Let his bones lie undisturbed. We want no seekers coming after us. Swear it, Samwell of the Night's Watch. Swear it for the life you owe me."

 

   

Edited by LynnS

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