Lady Hornwood vs Lady Dustin's fates - plot convenient logic failure

[Free Northman Reborn]

So recent discussions have resulted in me spending half a thought on Lady Hornwood's situation and eventual fate at Ramsay's hands. And it just struck me how the situation doesn't really make sense when  compared to Lady Dustin's similar situation, but very different position of strength.

In short, Lady Dustin derives her considerable power from being the widow of Lord Dustin and a member of House Ryswell by birth. Meaning that she potentially has the combined backing of Houses Dustin and Ryswell. At a conservative guess, this might give her access to say 3000 Dustin and 2000 Ryswell men, so say about 5000 men in total, at the start of the series. A considerable powerbloc in the North.

By comparison, Lady Hornwood is the widow of Lord Hornwood, and a Manderly by birth. Even if House Hornwood only commands the minimum of 1000 men, House Manderly is the most powerful and wealthiest House in the North by considerable margin. And we know that Lord Manderly was actively willing to mobilize his armies to protect her from the Boltons.

What's more, the Hornwoods are allied  to the Tallharts and Glovers by various marriages and ward arrangements. By any sound logic, Lady Hornwood should have been as powerful a figure as Lady Dustin at the time when Ramsay was trying to get his grubby fingers on her lands.

In short, like Theon's impossible capture of Winterfell in the heart of the North, and a host of other plot convenient blows Martin struck against the Starks, Lady Hornwood should not have been vulnerable to Ramsay's nefarious advances at all. In fact, she should have had the numbers to send him packing with his tail behind his legs.

[HexMachina]

My recollection is that she was abducted on her way back from Winterfell. So it wasn’t so much a case of not having the armed strength to repel invaders, more a case of it already being too late by the time anyone learns the truth. At that stage she is already married and imprisoned

[Free Northman Reborn]

38 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

My recollection is that she was abducted on her way back from Winterfell. So it wasn’t so much a case of not having the armed strength to repel invaders, more a case of it already being too late by the time anyone learns the truth. At that stage she is already married and imprisoned

Interesting. So more of a stealth operation than a use of direct force.

[Adam Yozza]

29 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Interesting. So more of a stealth operation than a use of direct force.

That's definitely how I thought of it as well. We know the Tallharts at least have a stake in the Hornwood situation; though they don't seem to have many reserves to call upon anyway; and as you say the Manderly's were already mobilizing to secure the Hornwood lands against the Dreadfort. But Lady Donella arrived at Winterfell with only half a dozen men at arms IIRC. So Ramsay would only need fifty men or so and a good ambush position to capture her before any of her allies can help.

Also, I feel like I should point out that Lady Dustin became Lady of Barrowtown during a peacetime. A stunt like the one Ramsay pulled wouldn't have been really feasable at that point because the Lord of Winterfell was back in the North by the time anyone heard of Lord Dustin's death and would have come down on them like a hammer. Lady Hornwood became a widow during a war, when the King and his principal bannermen were stuck in the south. I think that might also have had something to do with it.

[Bael's Bastard]

Ned might not have brought her husband back home alive, but I suspect he is a big reason why Barbrey Dustin has had such a seemingly secure position. And I don't think Ramsay would have been able to pull off or get away with what he has if Ned were still alive. He took advantage of the death of Ned, rise of King Robb, and most of the northern forces being in the south.

[Bernie Mac]

3 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

My recollection is that she was abducted on her way back from Winterfell. So it wasn’t so much a case of not having the armed strength to repel invaders, more a case of it already being too late by the time anyone learns the truth. At that stage she is already married and imprisoned

She went to Winterfell asking for more men and was told no. 

Bran's shoulders were stiff from sitting in the same chair by the time the audience drew to a close. And that night, as he sat to supper, a horn sounded to herald the arrival of another guest. Lady Donella Hornwood brought no tail of knights and retainers; only herself, and six tired men-at-arms with a moosehead badge on their dusty orange livery. 

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Bran wanted to give the lady a hundred men to defend her rights, but Ser Rodrik only said, "He may look, but should he do more I promise you there will be dire retribution. You will be safe enough, my lady . . . 

 

While there are likely some Hornwood forces left it seems clear that there are nowhere near the percentage of men the Dustins left behind, plus Lord Hornwood took his son and possibly all the other senior commanders giving Lady Hornwood no one with real authority to control what few forces she has left. Think of how worse Winterfell would have been had Cat not sent Rodrik home. 

 

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

So recent discussions have resulted in me spending half a thought on Lady Hornwood's situation and eventual fate at Ramsay's hands. And it just struck me how the situation doesn't really make sense when  compared to Lady Dustin's similar situation, but very different position of strength.

Lady Dustin's father was the neighbouring Lord, her younger brothers all with men of their own and she had been ruling for almost two decades. She has had time to build up relations with the various Dustin Vassals, whereas Donella has likely had no part in that part of the game with both a husband, adult son and various other Hornwood commanders (likely taken South) filling those roles. 

I also believe that the Lady Dustin may well have an actual Dustin mother or grandmother and that she actually has a pretty strong claim to the House as well giving her some kind of legitimacy as she holds those lands until she remarries. 

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

In short, Lady Dustin derives her considerable power from being the widow of Lord Dustin and a member of House Ryswell by birth. Meaning that she potentially has the combined backing of Houses Dustin and Ryswell. At a conservative guess, this might give her access to say 3000 Dustin and 2000 Ryswell men, so say about 5000 men in total, at the start of the series. A considerable powerbloc in the North.

True

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

By comparison, Lady Hornwood is the widow of Lord Hornwood, and a Manderly by birth. Even if House Hornwood only commands the minimum of 1000 men, House Manderly is the most powerful and wealthiest House in the North by considerable margin. And we know that Lord Manderly was actively willing to mobilize his armies to protect her from the Boltons.

Manderly wanted to marry her or marry her to his son in a not subtle powergrab. She was unwilling to go to her cousin for help as, understandably, it looked like he was trying to exploit her position. 

Lord Wyman made polite inquiry after Lady Hornwood, who was a cousin of his. "She was born a Manderly, you know. Perhaps, when her grief has run its course, she would like to be a Manderly again, eh?" He took a bite from a wing, and smiled broadly. "As it happens, I am a widower these past eight years. Past time I took another wife, don't you agree, my lords? A man does get lonely." Tossing the bones aside, he reached for a leg. "Or if the lady fancies a younger lad, well, my son Wendel is unwed as well. He is off south guarding Lady Catelyn, but no doubt he will wish to take a bride on his return. A valiant boy, and jolly. Just the man to teach her to laugh again, eh?" He wiped a bit of grease off his chin with the sleeve of his tunic.

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"I shall wed again if His Grace commands it," Lady Hornwood replied, "but Mors Crowfood is a drunken brute, and older than my father. As for my noble cousin of Manderly, my lord's bed is not large enough to hold one of his majesty, and I am surely too small and frail to lie beneath him."

People tend to forget that the Manderly in ACOK with his offers for marriage, demands for money for ships and him wanting to control of the North's mint was actually quite ambitious. 

 

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

What's more, the Hornwoods are allied  to the Tallharts and Glovers by various marriages and ward arrangements. By any sound logic, Lady Hornwood should have been as powerful a figure as Lady Dustin at the time when Ramsay was trying to get his grubby fingers on her lands.

House Duston controls the second biggest settlement in the North. The Ryswells are their closest neighbours. Tallhart and Glover are nowhere near the Hornwood lands and, I am guessing, are not as powerful as the Ryswells, Dustins or Hornwoods. 

I'd also say that due to their Masterly House status they may not be as independent with their support as actual Lordly Houses are, taking their ques from House Stark first and foremost. 

It is also possible that her husbands bastard is not the person Lady Hornwood wants to seek support from. 

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

In short, like Theon's impossible capture of Winterfell in the heart of the North, and a host of other plot convenient blows Martin struck against the Starks, Lady Hornwood should not have been vulnerable to Ramsay's nefarious advances at all. In fact, she should have had the numbers to send him packing with his tail behind his legs.

I don't agree with this. The Hornwoods are one of the most eager Houses to join Robb and they had no idea that there would actually be a war or how long it would last. Like House Stark, Kartstark and Umber they may have overcommitted themselves to this endeavour. 

[Melisandre's Rubies]

I believe it's a mixture of vulnerability ( on the road with few men guarding her), proximity of her lands (Hornwood lands border Bolton lands), and strength/grief. Lady Hornwood was recently widowed and lost her son as well, she's emotionally vulnerable, as well as physically vulnerable, and therefore easier to control or manipulate. Whereas Lady Dustin has had years to assert her rule, turn her grief into bitterness, resentment, and strength. The fact that the lands border means a strong defense and lack of a front to hold on at least one side, annexing it more so than trying to control an area a vast distance away. Most lords would be at the least hesitant to forcefully kidnap her and seize power, but Ramsay doesn't pause or question the outcome or consequences (or any sense of moral or ethical bonds), so he is not discouraged by this. He is a psychopath in a position of power. that is still new to him and he was not raised being taught the rules, procedures, consequences, etc.  If he was willing to invade, sack, and burn Winterfell, then why not Hornwood? That move was also one of opportunity and lack of morality or sense of duty or loyalty to the order of society, or fealty to the Starks.
When Lady Dustin was widowed, she was surrounded by family and allies, she was secure on her land, had the rule and stability of the Stark family in place, and there wasn't an equivalent to Ramsay waiting to take advantage of a power vacuum. Besides the fact that both gained their rule over their respective houses by being widowed, the two women and two situations are very different. 

[Danelle]

I think that the whole Hornwood affair was to highlight how vulnerable the North was when their best and brightest, such as Robb, Cat, Manderly's sons, were away and only the too old and the too young had stayed behind.

Another important factor is that the treatment of Lady Hornwood was a way to point out not only how sadistic Ramsay is, but also ignorant of the Game. Marrying Lady Donella made him Lord of Hornwood and sort of legitimized him as a lord:

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Ramsay Bolton was attired as befit the lord of the Hornwood and heir to the Dreadfort. His mantle was stitched together from wolfskins and clasped against the autumn chill by the yellowed teeth of the wolf's head on his right shoulder. On one hip he wore a falchion, its blade as thick and heavy as a cleaver; on the other a long dagger and a small curved flaying knife with a hooked point and a razor-sharp edge. 

Nevertheless he gained an even worse reputation after Lady Donella died:

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"He won't ever be my lord! He made Lady Hornwood marry him, then shut her in a dungeon and made her eat her fingers."

A murmur of assent swept the Merman's Court. "The maid tells it true," declared a stocky man in white and purple, whose cloak was fastened with a pair of crossed bronze keys. "Roose Bolton's cold and cunning, aye, but a man can deal with Roose. We've all known worse. But this bastard son of his … they say he's mad and cruel, a monster."

And his own father chides him for that when he threatens to kill Lady Dustin:

 

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Ramsay’s face darkened. “If I cut off her teats and feed them to my girls, will she abide me then? Will she abide me if I strip off her skin to make myself a pair of boots?”

“Unlikely. And those boots would come dear. They would cost us Barrowton, House Dustin, and the Ryswells.” ... “Barbrey Dustin is my second wife’s younger sister, Rodrik Ryswell’s daughter, sister to Roger, Rickard, and mine own namesake, Roose, cousin to the other Ryswells. She was fond of my late son and suspects you of having some part in his demise. Lady Barbrey is a woman who knows how to nurse a grievance. Be grateful for that. Barrowton is staunch for Bolton largely because she still holds Ned Stark to blame for her husband’s death.”

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 How many of our grudging friends do you imagine we'd retain if the truth were known? Only Lady Barbrey, whom you would turn into a pair of boots … inferior boots. Human skin is not as tough as cowhide and will not wear as well. By the king's decree you are now a Bolton. Try and act like one. Tales are told of you, Ramsay. I hear them everywhere. People fear you."

Lady Dustin is sort of protected by Roose, who has a better understanding of politics and would never harm a highborn lady unless he could get away with it. And it is impossible to get away with it. Even the Hornwood situation is not resolved.

Quote

"Not me," the Lady of Barrowton confessed, "but the rest, yes. Old Whoresbane is only here because the Freys hold the Greatjon captive. And do you imagine the Hornwood men have forgotten the Bastard's last marriage, and how his lady wife was left to starve, chewing her own fingers? What do you think passes through their heads when they hear the new bride weeping? Valiant Ned's precious little girl."

Ramsay seems to have gotten away with it, for the time being, due to many factors:

• The forced marriage took place when most of the lords were away at war. 
• As mentioned already, there were other men, including Wyman Manderly and Mors Umber, who wanted to marry Donella but she refused them. Due to the delicate political situation Donella could not directly turn to any Northern Lord for help. The only thing she could do was inform the Starks of her perilous situation. Unfortunately for her, Bran was too young to fully understand the situation and Ser Rodrick was too old (and I don't recall Robb or Cat authorizing him to decide for such matters)
• The extent of Ramsay's cunning and ruthless character was underestimated
• Other, more important events took place shortly after her tragic death, such as the attack of the Ironmen, the sack of Winterfell and the RW

[Bernie Mac]

On 18/01/2018 at 10:28 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

So recent discussions have resulted in me spending half a thought on Lady Hornwood's situation and eventual fate at Ramsay's hands. And it just struck me how the situation doesn't really make sense when  compared to Lady Dustin's similar situation, but very different position of strength.

Well we simply don't have enough information on both those Houses, their relationships (ties) within the Houses they are originally from or married into to say that it does not make sense. 

 

On 18/01/2018 at 10:28 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

In short, Lady Dustin derives her considerable power from being the widow of Lord Dustin and a member of House Ryswell by birth. Meaning that she potentially has the combined backing of Houses Dustin and Ryswell. At a conservative guess, this might give her access to say 3000 Dustin and 2000 Ryswell men, so say about 5000 men in total, at the start of the series. A considerable powerbloc in the North.

By comparison, Lady Hornwood is the widow of Lord Hornwood, and a Manderly by birth. Even if House Hornwood only commands the minimum of 1000 men, House Manderly is the most powerful and wealthiest House in the North by considerable margin. And we know that Lord Manderly was actively willing to mobilize his armies to protect her from the Boltons.

The difference here is that Lady Ryswell is the daughter of the current Lord Ryswell and her brothers, the current heirs. Her relationship with the current ruling Ryswells in 284, having only just recently left, is much closer than Donella's relationship with her cousin's ruling branch and the House that she left two decades ago. 

Plus we don't know the situation that the North was in during Robert's Rebellion. Perhaps Ned was more cautious than his son, left more trained soldiers back home and more experiecned commanders to properly protect the North. 

It should also be pointed out that Manderly's offer was not without its own expectations as he wanted Donella to marry either him or his son so he could take control of her lands. 

On 18/01/2018 at 10:28 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

What's more, the Hornwoods are allied  to the Tallharts and Glovers by various marriages and ward arrangements. By any sound logic, Lady Hornwood should have been as powerful a figure as Lady Dustin at the time when Ramsay was trying to get his grubby fingers on her lands.

The Hornwood's might, but we don't know if Donella was. Her husband's sister and bastard being connected to those Houses does not necessarily mean she was close to them. In actual fact it is possibly in both of those two Houses not to support Donella as they both have claims on that property. 

On 18/01/2018 at 10:28 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

In short, like Theon's impossible capture of Winterfell in the heart of the North, and a host of other plot convenient blows Martin struck against the Starks, Lady Hornwood should not have been vulnerable to Ramsay's nefarious advances at all. In fact, she should have had the numbers to send him packing with his tail behind his legs.

eh? She clearly did not have the  numbers. GRRM establishes that many Houses over committed to Robb, possibly not realising how long the war would last, and weakening themselves in the process. 

Robb hears of his father's arrest and raises his banners very, very quickly not really planning for the North's protection (both from enemies within and without). Ned on the other hand left the Vale before the Battle of Gulltown and (presumably) takes his time to raise and organise the North as Robert has a fair few battles, a lot of travelling and even some down time at Storm's End before Ned's army saves him at Stoney Sept. 

 

This is not a case of the plot not making sense. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

On 1/18/2018 at 11:58 AM, Adam Yozza said:

So Ramsay would only need fifty men

Or twenty good men? 

 

[Kandrax]

11 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Or twenty good men? 

 

This isn't Suemsay

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

13 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

This isn't Suemsay

I don't know what that is but I'll take your word for it brother.

[Kandrax]

Just now, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I don't know what that is but I'll take your word for it brother.

Combination of Ramsay and Villain Sue.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

15 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Combination of Ramsay and Villain Sue.

Again, don't know who Villain Sue is, but the combination of Ramsay with anyone is terrifying. Ramsay + Elmo is genuinely scary.

[Kandrax]

5 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Again, don't know who Villain Sue is, but the combination of Ramsay with anyone is terrifying. Ramsay + Elmo is genuinely scary.

Just Google it.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

1 hour ago, Kandrax said:

Just Google it.

I refuse!

[Dorian Martell's son]

4 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I refuse!

Sucker 

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Villain+Sue