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We need to talk about Cuba


maarsen

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We need to talk about Cuba because of the lack of knowledge that you Americans have about your own involvement and complicity for the state of Cuba. This is one of the "you broke it, you just bought it" scenarios. Cuba was an American colony after the Spanish American war. For all intents and purposes, not much has changed there since then. Americans sure did not leave it in better shape than when you found it. I have been to a few of the more interesting corners of Cuba and what I find is not a country stuck in the 50's but one stuck in the 19th century. I have been to a rum bottling plant and seen the machinery left behind from the revolution and as a millwright, i can tell you the machinery was pre 1st World War. The buildings are all 19th century architecture, except for the new hotels that cater to the tourists. Driving through the countryside and looking at the power transmission lines and again it is not just old but really old except for the places that just got electrified in the 70's and 80's. 

We took a side trip to a game preserve used by Fidel Castro for entertaining visiting dignitaries. Now it is run by the Armed Services. Apparently we needed to give our passport numbers to gain access, which we did not have. Well, said our guide after talking to the guy at the gate, once some bigshot military guys leave we can go in. They left after about an hour and in we went. The tour was interesting. in that we had to go in ancient army trucks that probably predated WWII. There was a small hotel on the site where guests could stay, and yes, according to our guide Pierre Trudeau did stay there, but there was very little that otherwise set it apart from any little resort one would see at any seashore in the US or Canada.

On another trip we took a drive into Santiago de Cuba to see Fidel's grave.This was about a month after he died. Visitors came in buses to see the grave and to visit the cemetery where lots of prominent Cuban citizens were buried. The grave is not ostentatious but just a large rock with a small plaque attached and a walkway in front where one can walk past and pay one's last respects. While we were there I saw an old couple walk down from the town, pick up a rose from a bunch at the beginning of the walkway, walk to the grave and stand in front for a few minutes, lay down the rose, and slowly walk away. 

Cuba is a beautiful country, and probably as unspoiled a place as one could find. Horse carts and donkey carts are as common as trucks and cars on the road. Huge swathes of land are fallow except around the houses where fruits and vegetables are grown to sell at the side of the road. The people I have met are as charming and nice as you could possibly imagine. Sometimes they are surprised to see us in the small towns where tourists don't usually go but we have never had any issues. The most noticeable thing is the lack of police and military on the streets. We were stopped by police only once, and that was because they were investigating a hit and run accident and were looking for witnesses. Everybody seems to know everyone else with lots of hugs whenever they meet.

Cuba looked to have been a somewhat poor country as the 19th century came to a close but as other countries modernized during the 20th century, Cuba, under the control of the US, stagnated. Now, compared to their neighbours, they are very poor, with their only real industry being tourism. All the talk about the horrors of nationalization make me laugh because there was very little of anything worthwhile to take except the mob's casinos. 

Get over your irrational fear of the country and go visit and see for yourself what a surprising and interesting place it is.

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I just returned from two weeks in Central Cuba.

Have been going on a regular basis since the Berlin Wall fell and the Soviet Sugar Daddy dissolved.  Things have changed immensely, almost inconceivably, even to my mind, who has been going regularly, all over the island, and who knows very well very many Cubans ranging from gov. officials to those who were imprisoned during the 1970's, though mostly musicians, dancers, film makers, etc. -- those who live in Cuba and those who live in the US, and those who live elsewheres.

Cuba is not a perfect country.  It does not have a perfect government.  It's people are not perfect.  Yet,rhw population as a whole, compared to other countries and particularly ours, has the people who are the kindest to each other, who are generous and compassionate, filled with vitality, work ethic and sense of history, place and community and nation.  It is also the most child friendly country I've ever visited.

Cubans also love the nature and environment of their nation.  This last trip, a man who lost 6 of his cherished 7 trees in the hurricane, whose home is known as la casa des flores, raises as many kinds of flowers and plants as he can in his small yard.  His specialty is orchids.  He gifted me with a double bloom of one of his favorite orchids.  I carried it with me all day, and when I had to move on, I gifted it to a Cubana, who put it in water and 16 hours later it was still brilliant and bright.

 

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People I know who have tried to talk to me about Cuba tend to focus on the capitalism thing.  It's almost amusing.  "But their stuff is really  old!  They have old cars!  They have old rum factories!  They don't even have cell phones!  The horrors!"  As though capitalism and consumerism are the default settings we should all strive for.  I point out that Cubans enjoy one of the highest literacy rates in the world, some of the greatest health and education standards, they have low infant and maternal mortality rates, see fewer deaths as a result of hurricanes and can recover from the damage quickly and so on etc.  "But, but, they are horrible because there's no internet."

 

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I have always wanted the US to do whatever it took to free Cuba from the dictatorial hell they have been trapped in for a lifetime. But that doesn't mean I think that they are "less than" or... the word "shithole" is on the mind... 

Personally I wish we would cut defense ransoms to the MIC in half, put the remainder into shit that the troops actually need and want, and take a bunch of the savings to export Democracy in completely non-violent ways. 

I've actually been discussing things with a friend of mine and we have joked that we need a new age of Imperialism that is actually morally pure and helpful, but instead of stealing the land and resources and freedom of "shithole countries" we should be spending whatever it takes to peacefully turn non democratic nations into viable forms of government by improving their peoples' lives with no strings attached. 

Democracy is the only way, and every free man and woman has a responsibility whether they recognize it or not to help those whose governments abuse their people. And doing the right thing, helping to export freedom and accountability, is worth whatever it costs. 

I am not a warmonger, I am not in favor of handing out money with no long term plan to despots in exchange for temporary stability, and I am not a fool. 

But I am a soldier, and I am a free woman. And I think bringing freedom, real freedom not Dick Cheney's lies, to the rest of the world is the sacred duty of the oldest democracy on this earth.

We are not perfect, we do not have all of the answers. But we have the most important ones, freedom of the individual and Democracy. 

I cannot abide the existence of Tyrants, and although Raul is making the appropriate noises towards reforming the Cuban presidency I would like to make deals to provide financial incentives with the island nation in exchange for the ability to assist a transition into an actual representative democracy that takes advantage of (ideally) none of its citizens to enrich the few, no matter how benevolent their Tyranny. 

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I personally find the whole ‘look how tyrannical Cuba is’ line of thinking from Americans to be dubious.

It’s true, for all it’s upsides and humanist aspirations, Cuba has so often adopted police-state methods that you would think there was some neighbouring super-Power routinely launching invasions, funding coups, attempting countless assassinations of the leader. I mean, that’s crazy. Right?

 

Ergo, EVERY system acts that way under those circumstances. Think democracy and The Terror, or the more benign Napoleonic phase. Doesn’t necessarily excuse it, but for the wolf outside the door to be the one complaining about how cooped-up the chickens are kept is pretty rich. 

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From the US politics thread, these are the main arguments I've seen against Castro:

- He had people executed without due process. True, and the same is true of all 21st century US presidents and most (if not all) 20th century presidents. Also, the vast majority of these examples are from the immediate post-revolution period and the "Operation Mongoose" period of US aggression / undeclared war.

- He had people unlawfully imprisoned. True, and the same is true of the US - see: Guantanamo.

- He harassed LGBT population in the 70's. True. And parts of the US continued to enforce anti-sodomy laws until 2003.

I found the comments about the Trudeau's reaction to Castro's death especially funny when they are compared to this gem: https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2015/01/22/statement-president-death-king-abdullah-bin-abdulaziz

For those unwilling to click the link, that's Obama talking about his "genuine and warm friendship" with Saudi King Abdullah, someone who was a far greater tyrant than Castro by any concievable measure.

The US has placed Cuba under economical, and at times military siege for 50 years, after subjugating it to a puppet state and exploiting its economy during the previous 60 years. Americans have no moral standing to criticize Cuba or its government, especially while their own government continues to commit same or worse acts.

"Exporting democracy"? Give me a fucking break. Start by cleaning your own yard.

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1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

I personally find the whole ‘look how tyrannical Cuba is’ line of thinking from Americans to be dubious.

It’s true, for all it’s upsides and humanist aspirations, Cuba has so often adopted police-state methods that you would think there was some neighbouring super-Power routinely launching invasions, funding coups, attempting countless assassinations of the leader. I mean, that’s crazy. Right?

 

Ergo, EVERY system acts that way under those circumstances. Think democracy and The Terror, or the more benign Napoleonic phase. Doesn’t necessarily excuse it, but for the wolf outside the door to be the one complaining about how cooped-up the chickens are kept is pretty rich. 

I am not absolving the U.S. of our crimes. That does not justify Tyranny, which includes McCarthyism the 'Patriot' act and Napoleon's disgusting co-opt of the Revolution to fuel his own Dictatorial ambitions. 

There is no arguing that the Castro regime was and is Tyrannical. Donald Trump is a Tyrant, and his crimes are merely failure to respect the integrity of the Democratic process and turning the WH into a whorehouse that caters exclusively to the super-rich with a VIP room in a general oval shape that is kept open for Russian Johns. 

Fuck, the fact that I can say that as someone Trump would have no problem seeing liquidated is a testament to our nation and our institutions. We should strengthen them to ensure they never threaten to buckle so easily again, but we should also make delivery of such great governmental ideals a priority. Particularly for a close neighbor like Cuba that as you say is not a total police state like the hardcore days of the Soviets or North Korea, since that relative freedom should only help representative government sentiments spread like wildfire. 

I don't claim to be absolutely correct and have proof of my beliefs, I am simply a relatively well informed person who loves accountable government and am sharing my views. 

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2 hours ago, James Arryn said:

 

It’s true, for all it’s upsides and humanist aspirations, Cuba has so often adopted police-state methods that you would think there was some neighbouring super-Power routinely launching invasions, funding coups, attempting countless assassinations of the leader. I mean, that’s crazy. Right?


Cuba is definitely not the Soviet Union and the US positioning themselves as if they were a massive threat to the American way of life is ridiculous, but I don't believe for a second that the only reason the Castro regime adopted police-state methods was because of the US, or that as you are implying only US-led traitors of some sort were victims of this.

I mean, in the other topic FB implied that the views of those who left Cuba don't count. What sort of thinking is that? Castro had a country that had such a significant portion of the population wanting to leave that eventually, by FB's own admission, he stopped allowing people to leave, but their views against him don't count because they left? As the child of anti-communists exiles myself I find that idea fucking horrifying.

The fact that America has worse countries they call friends and their own sins to sort out does not make Cuba and Castro good.

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2 hours ago, polishgenius said:


Cuba is definitely not the Soviet Union and the US positioning themselves as if they were a massive threat to the American way of life is ridiculous, but I don't believe for a second that the only reason the Castro regime adopted police-state methods was because of the US, or that as you are implying only US-led traitors of some sort were victims of this.

I mean, in the other topic FB implied that the views of those who left Cuba don't count. What sort of thinking is that? Castro had a country that had such a significant portion of the population wanting to leave that eventually, by FB's own admission, he stopped allowing people to leave, but their views against him don't count because they left? As the child of anti-communists exiles myself I find that idea fucking horrifying.

The fact that America has worse countries they call friends and their own sins to sort out does not make Cuba and Castro good.

I’m not sure anyone knows what Cuba would have been like absent the constant, overpowering and very real threat of US ‘intervention’. More to the point, I don’t think it matters, because that in and of itself would be enough. I mean, illegal prisons, torture etc. actually were, we know, the result of a couple dozen guys with box cutters. Can you imagine how Dubya’s US would react to actual invasions, sponsered coups and countless assassination attempts? 

I agree about not taking the word of expats in isolation, and again, i’m not saying as is Cuba is a faultless wonderland. Just that most of the things Americans like to cite are the very kinds of things that you would expect to happen given American actions. I suppose you could just let yourself be assassinated or just await each US sponsored coup and then react and hope it all turns out for the best. Certainly it would be kinder, but I can’t off the top of my head think of many world leaders who would go that route. Not since Mosaddegh, at any rate. 

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2 hours ago, baxus said:

@Mikael Just for conversation sake, could you find an example of a single place in the world that has been improved by "US democracy"?

Sorry, but I'm not the right guy for this, I'm neither a US apologist nor very knowledgeable. I'm merely a horrified bystander of the car-wreck that's US democracy.

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2 hours ago, polishgenius said:

The fact that America has worse countries they call friends and their own sins to sort out does not make Cuba and Castro good.

That would depend whether you're talking in absolutes or not.

From an idealistic perspective, no, Cuba and Castro are not good.
But if you look at the world and its history as it is... at least Cuba comes pretty close.

I'm always a bit wary of the lofty discussions about "democracy" and "liberty" because they tend to eclipse the demands of survival... Yah know, the ability of a regime to provide a minimum amount of stuff like food, water and housing to all its citizens.
It's easy to claim that communism is bad when you're sitting in front of your computer in a first-world country. But perhaps it ain't so bad when your country is dirt poor. And perhaps one would be willing to accept a police-state if it offered better chances of survival than a "democratic" one.
Especially since "democracy" is a spectrum rather than a binary state and many first-world countries are much further from democracy than people tend to assume. And "accountable government" is fast becoming a fairy tale at this point.

Finally, talks about bringing "democracy" to a place like Cuba tend to be self-serving on some level or the other. Conservative "sorts of people" (as OGE would say) don't give a shit about Cubans but merely use it to make the US look good by comparison. And even well-thinking do-gooder liberal folks might do better discussing this thing with the Cubans themselves rather than anyone else, because they might be surprised by the way they see their island and regime.

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gods, the last thing Americans need to do is continue their exporting of democracy.  It's killing everyone.  It's laughable that Americans are 'free' or that American democracy is some beacon of light, better than all other forms of government.  No fucking way. American just needs to go away and mind her own fucking business for a change.

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12 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

But if you look at the world and its history as it is... at least Cuba comes pretty close.


Maybe it's coz I'm looking at it from a different, my-parents-grew-up-under-police-state-communism perspective, but I really don't think it does. People point to things like their high literacy and education rates and things and while yes, it's true, they have some noble aims and have succeeded in getting some of them implemented (like I say, they're not the Soviets), they've done so at a very high cost to personal liberty for their people and it seems as if some defences of Cuba believe that you can't have one without the other. But you can.

Basically, as much as the intertwining of Cuba's history with America's aggressions and fears is distorting some people's views about Cuba, I think that's going the other way too a little bit. Defending Cuba's politics because they have higher literacy rates or a better healthcare system than America is a distorted lens because America's literacy rates and healthcare system are really really bad.

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16 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 it seems as if some defences of Cuba believe that you can't have one without the other. But you can.

In theory, yes. But in reality? I'm not so sure.
How many third world countries are there that are "democratic" AND aim to guarantee the survival of every single citizen?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend police states. But it seems to me that before saying one has to be gotten rid of, one should be certain that it can propose better for the people in question.

Looking at the world I don't think we have anything better to propose to Cuba. For sure, it is desirable that the regime become more liberal and more democratic. But unless we can be certain that outside intervention leads to a net improvement of the Cubans' living conditions I don't think outside criticism of the regime has any value.

Also, as an aside, I've met some people from Russia or Eastern Europe who didn't think the trade-off between economic safety and individual liberty was worth it.
I know I tend to think it isn't, because I believe the first responsibility of a regime is to provide for the survival of its citizens ; you can't eat freedom.

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Perspectives from one who lives in a democratic state that can't provide for all her citizens and one who has history with a communist state who also couldn't provide for the basic needs of her citizens are likely to differ quite a bit with one who lives in a communist state that does provide for every one of their citizens.  As someone who grew up very poor in a democratic state, I can say that there's a decided lack of freedom one experiences while in that position.  I work with families who suffer extreme poverty and they don't experience this personal liberty people like to wax poetically about. People might point out that the issue there is capitalism and not democracy, and there have been many think tanks who have tried to figure out if you can have democracy without capitalism.  The answer seems to be no, that some form of capitalism must exist in order for democracy to continue.  

Anyway, I think the Cuba question forces us to reconsider how we think about the right kinds of governments, and even how we think about freedom.  One system is not inherently better than the other.  I personally think that providing for the needs of all citizens is more valuable than making sure we get to choose between ten different styles of smart phone.  

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33 minutes ago, polishgenius said:


Maybe it's coz I'm looking at it from a different, my-parents-grew-up-under-police-state-communism perspective, but I really don't think it does. People point to things like their high literacy and education rates and things and while yes, it's true, they have some noble aims and have succeeded in getting some of them implemented (like I say, they're not the Soviets), they've done so at a very high cost to personal liberty for their people and it seems as if some defences of Cuba believe that you can't have one without the other. But you can.

Basically, as much as the intertwining of Cuba's history with America's aggressions and fears is distorting some people's views about Cuba, I think that's going the other way too a little bit. Defending Cuba's politics because they have higher literacy rates or a better healthcare system than America is a distorted lens because America's literacy rates and healthcare system are really really bad.

My parents also grew up in a communist system (although milder than Poland's), and yet my perspective is a different one.

Of all systems in my country's history, communism provided the biggest range of opportunities and chance for societal mobility. For example, my family went from substinence farmers to urban middle-class in one generation, something which would have been impossible in the previous regime and highly improbable in the current one.

Was communism perfect? No, in fact many of its aspects were horrible. Was it preferable to the previous regime (a royalist autocracy which gave zero shits for 95% of the population)? Yes. Is it preferable to the current government (a kleptocracy with 25% unemployment where "upward mobility" means emigrating to Germany to become a janitor)? IMO, yes.

Maybe I'm just bitter because I live in a shithole :)

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