Police violence... when will people see that better training and tactics are essential

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, WinterFox said:

And occupying armies often (not always) care about optics and keeping people docile. 

Even the Werhmact actually waited for people to fuck up in Belgium before killing them in 1914

They did.  The entire idea that police lives are more valuable than everyone elses that their real purpose is to protect themselves from everyone else and that any actions they take are justified is the poison that is turning them into a group that we simply cannot trust.

That is why American police tactics and training must change.  That they need to remember they exist to serve us, all of us.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Part of it is also just the fucked up American Fear mentality.  We are so fucking scared of all these fucking super predator bogeymen that we have no problem locking everyone up and giving the police carte blanche to do whatever the fuck they want. Kill whoever you want, bro, we got yer back has to change.  It's all tied up in racism and classism.  Fear of POC and poor people and fear of drug addicts.  So instead lock them all up and if you have to shoot them. 

All the American exceptionalism is fucking gross when you look at our criminal justice system.  Based on that we are the least free country in the world.  Stop trying to shoot the imaginary monster under the bed.

[Galactus]

19 hours ago, WinterFox said:

And occupying armies often (not always) care about optics and keeping people docile. 

Even the Werhmact actually waited for people to fuck up in Belgium before killing them in 1914

[Pedant] That wouldn't be the Wehrmacht, the Wehrmach was the name of the combined german armed forces of 1935-45. The successor to the Wiemar-era Reichswehr.

 

The army in WWI would be simple be the Imperial german army (Deutsches Heer) though that technically only includes the army and (nascent) air-force.

And even that is a bit of a kludge, since the Imperial Army was really several different organizations (eg. Bavaria and Saxony technically still had their own armies)[/Pedant]

 

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Police corruption investigation in Baltimore:

https://www.theroot.com/baltimore-cops-kept-toy-guns-to-plant-just-in-case-they-1822546984?utm_source=theroot_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

[ants]

8 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Police corruption investigation in Baltimore:

https://www.theroot.com/baltimore-cops-kept-toy-guns-to-plant-just-in-case-they-1822546984?utm_source=theroot_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

Pretty scary. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

11 hours ago, ants said:

Pretty scary. 

Not even surprising.  I do not feel at all guilty about never extending the benefit of doubt to a cop.  In the US, the police have created and fostered a narrative where they are at war with the people they serve and they have repeatedly demonstrated that they will go to any extralegal lengths to protect their own and operate with impunity.  We need independent commissions to replace their Internal Affairs, and like with so many fucked up American institutions, we need to do away with the idea that any organization is capable of self-policing in a constructive way.  

[My Lady Ashalind]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/former-baltimore-detectives-convicted-in-corruption-trial-with-shocking-details/2018/02/12/961995a6-0a98-11e8-8890-372e2047c935_story.html?utm_term=.3c7002b02ab0

 

I don't know to what extent you all have been following this.  Nearly every day during the trial led to WTF moments. 

 

 

 

 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

I saw this today: Two officers gunned down in Florida

The NPR article linked above notes that no motives are known, but he does say something akin to demonizing police in this country will obviously lead to these events happening.

I'm torn. Not about the officers being killed--I hope it goes without saying, but murder, violence, war, etc., these are not what I will ever advocate as necessary for means of change in our society. When a criminal is mistreated and dies at the hands of law enforcement, even if the criminal is particularly heinous, I feel sympathy due to my beliefs about how free we really are in the tracks we're assigned in life. This works in reverse too. These two officers I feel sympathy toward. They are part of what I see as one of America's most dangerous, most destructive forces. But they're people, and they believed in what they were doing. Their murders have created extraordinary sadness as I see the individuals.

My issue comes with the language in response. This kind of action is met with arguments of, "Stop demonizing police." Or increased force used by police as this is evidence of the danger they face. A lot of issues exist in this argument, so I will let it hang for now, and move on to what I see the core issue here.

The escalation of our police militarization cannot continue. When the police act as though they are an occupying force, whether consciously or subconsciously, we begin to realize we have been constructed as enemies of the state. This, I think, is not conscious. We can see interpellation occur in contradictory ways here. The police, the military, they can rely on absolute power to gain compliance from us. They can outright say to us, "You are the enemy, and we will destroy you if you resist." Our police force has not done that. But through increased militarization, the look of the police, the actions of the police, but more importantly, the language of police has created a covert means of suppression. We are not citizens. We are civilians. They are geared up like military units, better than military units who are deployed overseas, but they identify no specific enemy. Their enemy is crime, drugs, violence. Not a group. Not a force of people.

When they are murdered, the blame is not the fault of the killers, but the fault of all of us. The sheriff's quote in the article, "What do you expect happens when you demonize law enforcement to the extent that it's been demonized?" perhaps best illustrates how we are again, as citizens, being moved into the role of "the enemy." We are responsible. These ideological moves are subtle. I think those who work in the institutions of control don't realize they are creating covert means of control in these ways, but one thing is certain: through language, through image, and through action, they consistently allow themselves rights over us to increase weaponry, strength, and superiority over the citizens.

In turn, I am not surprised some few people have begun to act on this act of creation. They believe, if we are enemies, then we will fight back accordingly. This is the reason the increase in force cannot work and should not work.

A complete overhaul of our police infrastructure has to occur. Politicians have to have the courage to say it. Some will lose elections, I think, but the language of normalization that police militarization is not okay--it has to start now.

[Jace, Extat]

I saw that this morning and was conflicted by my (majority) stupid brain enjoying violence and perceived execution of 'justice' against very real injustice vs my (almost irrelevant minority) functioning adult brain saying that the long term consequences of this act cannot be positive.

Really the only thing that would even be a mitigating effect at this point is if a white Trumper who thought it was Deep State did it.

[HoodedCrow]

Maybe this has been said, but aren’t most prisons for profit in the US? That means the police are getting numbers for their customers, and the customers want a profit so don’t care about collateral damage. It also means prisons are harmful and meant to keep people in for as long as possible, encouraging recidivism, on the weakest crimes. The capital punishment cases (still doing this,yuck) take a very long time.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Maybe this has been said, but aren’t most prisons for profit in the US? That means the police are getting numbers for their customers, and the customers want a profit so don’t care about collateral damage. It also means prisons are harmful and meant to keep people in for as long as possible, encouraging recidivism, on the weakest crimes. The capital punishment cases (still doing this,yuck) take a very long time.

Most are not, as far as I know.  Some are, but not most.  I still think privately run prisons are a weird and terrible idea.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Video of what it's like to file a police complaint in Florida

Not sure when this is from, but the Police clearly treat the general public with hostility.  Some of the guys in this video are pushing the line between intimidating and threatening.  

Sorry to hear to policemen were killed, but honestly, the way they treat the public as their enemy I'm surprised this stuff doesn't happen more often.  You can only push people so far.  Obviously violence against the police isn't the way to go but we have a police problem in this country.  The entire criminal justice system is basically a way to perpetuate white supremacy.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

14 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

Video of what it's like to file a police complaint in Florida

Not sure when this is from, but the Police clearly treat the general public with hostility.  Some of the guys in this video are pushing the line between intimidating and threatening.  

Sorry to hear to policemen were killed, but honestly, the way they treat the public as their enemy I'm surprised this stuff doesn't happen more often.  You can only push people so far.  Obviously violence against the police isn't the way to go but we have a police problem in this country.  The entire criminal justice system is basically a way to perpetuate white supremacy.

This video is extremely upsetting. Even the less hostile cases are awful.

 

I watched this on Amazon Prime: Do Not Resist

The images are surreal. I served in the military 8 years, I've been deployed. The images in that documentary were a gut punch.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I believe this is a portion of “Do not resist” called “Conditioned Response”:

http://www.donotresistfilm.com/

Police absolutely should not be trained and conditioned to shoot first.  Those are the actions of an occupying army attmepting to cow a population into submission.  They are not the actions of a police force created to keep peace in a democratic society.

[maarsen]

17 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I believe this is a portion of “Do not resist” called “Conditioned Response”:

http://www.donotresistfilm.com/

Police absolutely should not be trained and conditioned to shoot first.  Those are the actions of an occupying army attmepting to cow a population into submission.  They are not the actions of a police force created to keep peace in a democratic society.

Personally I think police should have their firearms taken away. I am older, white, reasonably privileged in society and have never been comfortable with policing as it is done. If policing was impartial, there would be a huge number of white collar criminals in jail, including Trump, (money laundering and fraud, in case anyone needs to ask) and people of colour would be in jail in proportion to their population numbers. Until I see that happen, I have no faith in any police force.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

7 minutes ago, maarsen said:

Personally I think police should have their firearms taken away. I am older, white, reasonably privileged in society and have never been comfortable with policing as it is done. If policing was impartial, there would be a huge number of white collar criminals in jail, including Trump, (money laundering and fraud, in case anyone needs to ask) and people of colour would be in jail in proportion to their population numbers. Until I see that happen, I have no faith in any police force.

I have faith in most police but I agree that most of them should have their firearms taken from them.  Create "armed response units" like they have in the UK.

[maarsen]

2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I have faith in most police but I agree that most of them should have their firearms taken from them.  Create "armed response units" like they have in the UK.

I would have a lot more faith in policing if those responsible for the 2008 financial meltdown were actually charged, let alone convicted.  Smoking a joint becomes legal in Canada on July 1st, yet police are still pursuing those that do, especially if you are the wrong colour. Police seem to exist to protect the upper classes from the lower classes, not to actually enforce the law for all.

[Bonnot OG]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I have faith in most police but I agree that most of them should have their firearms taken from them.  Create "armed response units" like they have in the UK.

You're a white man, that's why.

The entire system they are built upon and how they operate upholds bigotry. Their training shows they are just state sanctioned murderers, and society lets them off the hook quite a lot thanks to hero worship and the fetishizing of so called heroes.
 

[GAROVORKIN]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I have faith in most police but I agree that most of them should have their firearms taken from them.  Create "armed response units" like they have in the UK.

That won't happen for alot of reasons, The Police will not give up there guns and politically no policing that want to stay in office wil even make move to disarm the police . And in any event the what about the Crooks that still have guns? do you expect them too watclz in the satin turn them in ?  I don't se that happening. 

[GAROVORKIN]

18 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

You're a white man, that's why.

The entire system they are built upon and how they operate upholds bigotry. Their training shows they are just state sanctioned murderers, and society lets them off the hook quite a lot thanks to hero worship and the fetishizing of so called heroes.
 

Anger clouds judgment Doom.  Perhaps you not bother with it ?