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Varysblackfyre321

How close does someone have to be from your immediate family for murdering him or her to qualify as kinslaying ?

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Yeah weird and dumb topic I know, but it's a question that's been bugging me since reading Jon's interaction with Arnolf Karstark.

Arnolf says to kill him Jon would be committing kinslaying; understandble given the Karstarks close relations with the Starks.

But Catelyn posits the Karstarks are no more related to the Starks than any other noble house; understandable given nobility tending have repeats of marriages with the same families to consolidate alliances. 

So one has to wonder where exactly is the cut off.

The Baratheons could trace their lineage to a man who was rumored to Aegon the conqueror's half brother and Robert's grandmother is a confirmed Targaryen.

Yet no one labeles him kinslayer for trying to murder Daemarys even Ned.

So what's the deal? 

 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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I think the Karstarks are exaggerating and/or being pedantic when they call it kinslaying. Though they are technically a cadet branch of House Stark they split from the main branch a thousand years before, meaning they are little more related than most northern houses due to intermarriage.

From just the general vibe I think anything more distant than a first cousin would be fair game, although if they still share your surname the taboo probably extends further than that.

I don’t remember there being much kinslaying-related criticism of Robert for killing Rhaegar (his second cousin), perhaps because Robert was a Baratheon and Rhaegar was a Targaryen.

While I expect Lancel Lannister killing Damion Lannister (also his second cousin) would be considered kinslaying by most people’s both are Lannisters.

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5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yeah weird and dumb topic I know, but it's a question that's been bugging me since reading Jon's interaction with Arnolf Karstark.

Arnolf says to kill him Jon would be committing kinslaying; understandble given the Karstarks close relations with the Starks.

Cregan. Arnolf is with Stannis

5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

But Catelyn posits the Karstarks are no more related to the Starks than any other noble house; understandable given nobility tending have repeats of marriages with the same families to consolidate alliances. 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1162/

5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So one has to wonder where exactly is the cut off.

The Baratheons could trace their lineage to a man who was rumored to Aegon the conqueror's half brother and Robert's grandmother is a confirmed Targaryen.

Yet no one labeles him kinslayer for trying to murder Daemarys even Ned.

So what's the deal? 

Dany is his second cousin, once removed. True there have been Baratheons marrying into the Targs and vice versa for a while but they are hardly close cousins. As it stands, Robert wouldn't even have had the chance to meet Dany and barely a chance to know or meet Viserys.

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I’m trying to think of how it relates to the laws forbidding incest. If Tywin can marry Joanna then surely he could murder Stafford without it being considered kinslaying? Not even uncle-niece marriages appear to be forbidden (the Stark girls married their half-uncles and Aeron and Victarion consider it possible for Vic to marry Asha).

I think it most likely, however, that it’s a combination of blood and surname. Both Rickard and Cregan are trying to save their own skins when they claim kinship, but some may consider it kinslaying or at least controversial. It may be, to use Tywin as an example again, that it’d be kinslaying to murder his first cousin Stafford Lannister but not to murder a Marbrand first cousin via his mother Jeyne Marbrand. 

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Perhaps there is some clue as to how Westerosi consider kinship with the interactions we have between Jaime Lannister and Addam Marbrand. They are most likely second cousins but Jaime never thinks of him as one. Unless the relation is third cousins which is possible and would explain why Jaime doesn’t think of him as family. 

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9 hours ago, Darion Storm said:

I think the Karstarks are exaggerating and/or being pedantic when they call it kinslaying. Though they are technically a cadet branch of House Stark they split from the main branch a thousand years before, meaning they are little more related than most northern houses due to intermarriage.

From just the general vibe I think anything more distant than a first cousin would be fair game, although if they still share your surname the taboo probably extends further than that.

I don’t remember there being much kinslaying-related criticism of Robert for killing Rhaegar (his second cousin), perhaps because Robert was a Baratheon and Rhaegar was a Targaryen.

While I expect Lancel Lannister killing Damion Lannister (also his second cousin) would be considered kinslaying by most people’s both are Lannisters.

If Robert isn't kinslayer because he is Baratheon instead of Targ, why is then Walder acused of kinslaying by Tytos Blackwood.

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2 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

And Karstark was just being a karsehole. Nobody really considered Robb beheading Lord Rickard kinslaying, Rick was just being a dick about it for some reason

I think he used kinslaying as a way to scare Robb. 

But the question of kinslaying is something I have been wondering about. Robert and Rhaegar are second cousin. For my money, I consider this kinslaying.

Tytos Blackwood's comment about kinslaying and the Freys, I disagree with because Lucas was murdered by Hosteen Frey, but he doesn't know that so he gets a pass on his comment, although it does make me wonder if House Blackwood sat out Robert's Rebellion because they are kin to the current Robert, Ned and Rhaegar. Plus it might be something they take very seriously because Bloodraven was labeled a kinslayer. 

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3 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Same as with incest: if you can fuck 'em, you can kill 'em.

This.

Marriage between first cousins in Westeros is not incest by any account, and killing first cousins doesn't seem to be a problem either. Here are Tyrion's thoughts on the matter: 

"It was a kindness that his uncle Kevan had two other sons; this one was unlikely to live out the year. Cersei would have him killed out of hand if she learned he was betraying her, and if by some grace of the gods she did not, Lancel would never survive the day Jaime Lannister returned to King's Landing. The only question would be whether Jaime cut him down in a jealous rage, or Cersei murdered him first to keep Jaime from finding out. Tyrion's silver was on Cersei."

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5 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

This.

Marriage between first cousins in Westeros is not incest by any account, and killing first cousins doesn't seem to be a problem either. Here are Tyrion's thoughts on the matter: 

"It was a kindness that his uncle Kevan had two other sons; this one was unlikely to live out the year. Cersei would have him killed out of hand if she learned he was betraying her, and if by some grace of the gods she did not, Lancel would never survive the day Jaime Lannister returned to King's Landing. The only question would be whether Jaime cut him down in a jealous rage, or Cersei murdered him first to keep Jaime from finding out. Tyrion's silver was on Cersei."

Well, it's Cersei and Jaime, so maybe not the best example regarding social norms & laws... ;) 

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11 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Well, it's Cersei and Jaime, so maybe not the best example regarding social norms & laws... ;) 

I got to agree you have a point. But Tyrion does kill his father and considers himself a kinsalayer. And he recognizes his sibilings relationship as incestuous. So I think he wouldn't be wondering about "who is going to kill Lancel" without thinking about kinslaying, if he considered it so. It's just plain old murder and what's another murder for any of the three golden lion pups?

Edited by Lady Dacey

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20 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yeah weird and dumb topic I know, but it's a question that's been bugging me since reading Jon's interaction with Arnolf Karstark.

Arnolf says to kill him Jon would be committing kinslaying; understandble given the Karstarks close relations with the Starks.

But Catelyn posits the Karstarks are no more related to the Starks than any other noble house; understandable given nobility tending have repeats of marriages with the same families to consolidate alliances. 

So one has to wonder where exactly is the cut off.

The Baratheons could trace their lineage to a man who was rumored to Aegon the conqueror's half brother and Robert's grandmother is a confirmed Targaryen.

Yet no one labeles him kinslayer for trying to murder Daemarys even Ned.

So what's the deal? 

 

It also depends on how it works. If the curse is actually retribution from the gods, then the line is wherever the gods draw it.

But if the curse is manmade, than anything that a wide number of people consider to be kinslaying will bring about the curse, even if that means Theon and Bran/Rickon. In this way, of course, anything bad that happens to Theon is not simply the natural course of his life, but the result of the curse.

Same with Roberts death: it will be attributed to kinslaying only if people believe it to be so, since we really have no indication that anybody's god really exists.

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The idea of the kinslayers as the most accursed people in the eyes of Gods and men, is a way to keep the little lordlings and little ladies in check. Some pious preaching will prevent many jealous cousins, second sons, third sons, noble bastards, etc. that killing your brother or father to step up in the line of succession is a bad thing to do. 

It also would prevent the family members who have to suffer the massive unjust shit from their older brothers or lord fathers to lose their cool and murder them. See how Victarion does his best not to kill Euron. It's a way to protect the noble nomenclature and order. 

That's why distant relatives doesn't count. Rhaegar refers to Robert as his cousin. No one is accusing Robert of kinslaying, though. No one thought Robb was a kinslayer when he executed Rickard Karstark (except the latter) too, for example.

That's because these conflicts weren't incited by the regular everyday things (see above), but were incited by exceptional conflicts, like treason, stealing someone's betrothed, etc., and we all know how these things are solved in there. 

So when someone snaps under the lordly/brotherly pressure, is accursed for "not keeping it in the stomach". 

Edited by The Sunland Lord

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I'm sure someone has mentioned this but GRRM has addressed this before. He basically said they they're different degrees. Like a cousin is kinslaying but killing a sibling is much worse. I believe he said the killing of a parent is the worst type of kinslaying in the eyes of the people. 

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13 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

And Karstark was just being a karsehole. Nobody really considered Robb beheading Lord Rickard kinslaying, Rick was just being a dick about it for some reason.

GRRM said Rickard was just trying to save his neck. I never read it that way but I can't argue with the puppet master. 

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It's kinda funny Karstarks keep claiming to be Kin the Starks when they want something.

First to be the Starks  heirs, then to keep their heads and, getting a place to crash(Alys with Jon snow even though he isn't a Stark she's still citing familial ties between the Starks and Karstarks to get something).

It makes me think of a guy whose the third cousin of a celebrity calling the celebrity up and asking for a favor because they're related.

And it's kinda funny lol.

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