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Black Crow

Heresy 204; of cabbages, prophecies and kings

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Welcome to Heresy 204, the latest version of the quirky thread where we take an in-depth look at the story and in particular what GRRM has referred to as the real conflict, not the Game of Thrones, but Song on Ice and Fire and the apparent threat which lies in the North, in those magical Otherlands which lie beyond the Wall. The thread is called Heresy because we miserable heretics were the first to challenge the orthodoxy that the Wall is the last best hope of mankind; to question whether the three-fingered tree-huggers really are kindly elves and question too the assumption that Jon Snow is some bloke prophecied out east known as Azor Ahai, whether the Starks might have a dark secret in their past, which we’re beginning to suspect may be gaunt, with characteristic long Stark face and very very cold.

 

We don’t all agree on this, or anything else for that matter, but we can safely claim to have been around for a while now and discussed an awful lot of stuff over the years since the threads started in late 2011. Some of it has been overtaken by events and some of it seemingly confirmed by the earlier stages of mummers’ version before it firmly moved into weird fan-fiction, but this remains very firmly a book-based thread no matter what might happen in that parallel but very different story told by the mummers.

 

So dig in, enjoy yourself and if it comes to a fight just remember the local house rules; stick to the text, have respect for the ideas of others and above all conduct the debate with great good humour.

 [I lied about the cabbages] :commie:

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Replying to the previous thread:

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

What I don't understand is why she is obsessed with Stannis and the Baratheon bloodline when the prophecy is made about the Targ bloodline. Why doesn't she take any interest in Dany or her dragons?  

Stannis is a quarter Targ, so he's still the blood of the dragon--in addition, he's the Lord of Dragonstone, which may have been a deciding factor for Mel to attach herself to Stannis, rather than seeking out Robert, Renly, or any of the exiled Targs.

I don't know if there's some specific component to the prophecy (or her own visions) that might cause her to view Dragonstone as an important part of the PtwP's biography, but what the reader knows is that Dany was (ostensibly) born on Dragonstone, and would have been the 'rightful' Lady of Dragonstone under Targaryen succession at the time that Melisandre was coming West. Thus, the portents that Melisandre mistook as pointing toward Stannis may have really been pointing toward Dany.
 

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

The sword isn't warm until tempered in his wife's blood.  I think the beast and Nissa Nissa are one in the same.

I have some thoughts along this line of speculation.

Most immediately, and I'm strongly inclined to agree that the sword gained its magic when it "drank" Nissa Nissa's warmth, and I believe that a similar sword will be born when a reforged Ice (or Oathkeeper) is plunged into Catelyn's heart and drinks the fire that animates her.

That said, I have wondered whether or not the secret to Valyrian steel is that it must be quenched in the heart of a dragon; perhaps I'm getting a little morbid with my imagination here, but I envision large steel spikes that are used to perform the sacrifice, then melted down and reworked into various smaller items, in much the same way that Ice was melted down into Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail.

At the least, I suspect that Valryian steel may have been quenched in dragon blood--if I'm not mistaken, all Valyrian steel has a 'dark, smoky" appearance, and dragon's blood is described in similar terms.

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28 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Stannis is a quarter Targ, so he's still the blood of the dragon--in addition, he's the Lord of Dragonstone, which may have been a deciding factor for Mel to attach herself to Stannis, rather than seeking out Robert, Renly, or any of the exiled Targs.

I don't know if there's some specific component to the prophecy (or her own visions) that might cause her to view Dragonstone as an important part of the PtwP's biography, but what the reader knows is that Dany was (ostensibly) born on Dragonstone, and would have been the 'rightful' Lady of Dragonstone under Targaryen succession at the time that Melisandre was coming West. Thus, the portents that Melisandre mistook as pointing toward Stannis may have really been pointing toward Dany.

Oh, as usual Matthew, that's quite good.  Dragonstone is also considered a place of sorcery or was constructed using sorcery.  Dany also tells us that no matter how far afield the dragons flew they always returned to Dragonstone.  Davos speaks of Melisandre's objective to wake the great dragon - so no ordinary dragon then.

29 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

At the least, I suspect that Valryian steel may have been quenched in dragon blood--if I'm not mistaken, all Valyrian steel has a 'dark, smoky" appearance, and dragon's blood is described in similar terms

I wonder if this is the meaning of dragon-steel.

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51 minutes ago, Matthew. said:


That said, I have wondered whether or not the secret to Valyrian steel is that it must be quenched in the heart of a dragon; perhaps I'm getting a little morbid with my imagination here, but I envision large steel spikes that are used to perform the sacrifice, then melted down and reworked into various smaller items, in much the same way that Ice was melted down into Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail.

At the least, I suspect that Valryian steel may have been quenched in dragon blood--if I'm not mistaken, all Valyrian steel has a 'dark, smoky" appearance, and dragon's blood is described in similar terms.

Seems reasonable to me. As dragons are magical creatures - fire made flesh - it would explain the magic in dragonsteel

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I wanted to revisit Whitetree since there is a question about Bran's tree dreams.  I've always assumed it was Bloodraven who is coming to Bran as a tree but I've had second thoughts.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran I

"Trees? No . . ."

"They do," Bran said with sudden certainty. "They dream tree dreams. I dream of a tree sometimes. A weirwood, like the one in the godswood. It calls to me. The wolf dreams are better. I smell things, and sometimes I can taste the blood."

 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran II

She should never have talked about the wolf dreams, Bran thought as Hodor carried him up the steps to his bedchamber. He fought against sleep as long as he could, but in the end it took him as it always did. On this night he dreamed of the weirwood. It was looking at him with its deep red eyes, calling to him with its twisted wooden mouth, and from its pale branches the three-eyed crow came flapping, pecking at his face and crying his name in a voice as sharp as swords.

The twisted mouth and repeatedly tasting blood puts Whitetree on the table.  Most trees just have a slash for a mouth. Bran says it is like the tree in Winterfell.  That tree is described as a great wierwood, ancient, at least 10,000 years .

Whitetree is the biggest weirwood Jon has ever seen, so larger and older than the Winterfell tree.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon II

Whitetree, the village was named on Sam's old maps. Jon did not think it much of a village. Four tumbledown one-room houses of unmortared stone surrounded an empty sheepfold and a well. The houses were roofed with sod, the windows shuttered with ragged pieces of hide. And above them loomed the pale limbs and dark red leaves of a monstrous great weirwood.

It was the biggest tree Jon Snow had ever seen, the trunk near eight feet wide, the branches spreading so far that the entire village was shaded beneath their canopy. The size did not disturb him so much as the face . . . the mouth especially, no simple carved slash, but a jagged hollow large enough to swallow a sheep.

Quote

Jagged - having rough, sharp points protruding.

spiky, barbed, ragged, rough, uneven, irregular, broken;

serrated, sawtooth, sawtoothed, indented

 

Quote

Those are not sheep bones, though. Nor is that a sheep's skull in the ashes.

"An old tree." Mormont sat his horse, frowning. "Old," his raven agreed from his shoulder. "Old, old, old.

"And powerful." Jon could feel the power.

Thoren Smallwood dismounted beside the trunk, dark in his plate and mail. "Look at that face. Small wonder men feared them, when they first came to Westeros. I'd like to take an axe to the bloody thing myself."

This is the one tree that is described with a 'twisted' mouth and we know that is has received if not blood but burnt offerings recently. 

Bran is afraid of the tree dreams.  Could it be this face that he sees? 

Edited by LynnS

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From yesterday, replying to @LynnS:

Quote

I don't have the App, but 'rumor had it'.  I don't think this specific wording is chosen by accident.

It really doesn't matter.

The app states clearly (no rumor) that Aerys sent Hightower to the TOJ, where Hightower found Rhaegar and brought him back to King's Landing.

If so, then Aerys knew the rumor was right, because Rhaegar had been at the TOJ.  

So Aerys would have believed Lyanna was also at the TOJ, and he would have had her taken hostage.  That's quite clear

Furthermore, even before knowing the rumor was right, Aerys surely would have sent Hightower with orders to bring back Lyanna if she were there (because the rumor was true).  

We know this certainly never happened.  Aerys did not have Lyanna at this time and he never sent word to Ned and Robert saying he did.

And finally, put yourself in Aerys' shoes.  Suppose the app is right.  In that case, the TOJ is the very first place he would have expected the three KG to be... and he would surely have sent them orders to return and defend him at this time of mortal peril.  But there is no sign in canon that this ever happened. 

In conclusion, I think the entire app text on that subject is wrong.  

There was no rumor Rhaegar and Lyanna were there... Aerys never sent Hightower to the TOJ to check out the rumor... Hightower did not as a result find Rhaegar and send Rhaegar back to King's Landing... and Lyanna did not stay in the TOJ for multiple months, ignored by Aerys even though capturing her might have saved his life and won the war.  

It's all just fanfiction, I'm afraid.

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56 minutes ago, JNR said:

From yesterday, replying to @LynnS:

It really doesn't matter.

The app states clearly (no rumor) that Aerys sent Hightower to the TOJ, where Hightower found Rhaegar and brought him back to King's Landing.

If so, then Aerys knew the rumor was right, because Rhaegar had been at the TOJ.  

So Aerys would have believed Lyanna was also at the TOJ, and he would have had her taken hostage.  That's quite clear

Furthermore, even before knowing the rumor was right, Aerys surely would have sent Hightower with orders to bring back Lyanna if she were there (because the rumor was true).  

We know this certainly never happened.  Aerys did not have Lyanna at this time and he never sent word to Ned and Robert saying he did.

And finally, put yourself in Aerys' shoes.  Suppose the app is right.  In that case, the TOJ is the very first place he would have expected the three KG to be... and he would surely have sent them orders to return and defend him at this time of mortal peril.  But there is no sign in canon that this ever happened. 

In conclusion, I think the entire app text on that subject is wrong.  

There was no rumor Rhaegar and Lyanna were there... Aerys never sent Hightower to the TOJ to check out the rumor... Hightower did not as a result find Rhaegar and send Rhaegar back to King's Landing... and Lyanna did not stay in the TOJ for multiple months, ignored by Aerys even though capturing her might have saved his life and won the war.  

It's all just fanfiction, I'm afraid.

Oh, I don't disagree.  The ToJ is also a complete distraction, a wild goose chase.

Edited by LynnS

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11 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I suspect that Valryian steel may have been quenched in dragon blood

I do too, and this would certainly help explain why the process has been lost since the Doom.

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

Bran is afraid of the tree dreams.  Could it be this face that he sees? 

Perhaps.  I'm not sure the tree in the dreams is meant to reflect a particular weirwood, though.

Like you I think the tree in Bran's ACOK dreams is Bloodraven calling to him and appearing as a weirwood, in a general sense, just because it's the weirnet he's using to call.  

This is very similar to Bran appearing as a tree in Jon's dream, also in ACOK.  Same process,  but a different greenseer, different recipient, and the call crosses the Wall from the southron side instead of the northern.

However, with respect to:

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

Whitetree is the biggest weirwood Jon has ever seen, so larger and older than the Winterfell tree.

I consider this an important fact because it tells me that weirwoods probably keep growing even after they're 10,000 years old.

Do they ever stop?   Past a certain point, would an incredibly ancient weirwood, perhaps, grow so large as to resemble multiple weirwoods very close together, especially if over millennia, there were soil buildup, obscuring the common base trunk?

From the World book we have:

Quote

And Highgarden's lush green godswood is almost as renowned, for in the place of a single heart tree it boasts three towering, graceful, ancient weirwoods whose limbs have grown so entangled over the centuries that they appear to be almost a single tree with three trunks, reaching for each other above a tranquil pool. Legend has it these trees, known in the Reach as the Three Singers, were planted by Garth Greenhand himself.

Things that make one say Hmmm.

Edited by JNR

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15 hours ago, LynnS said:

I wanted to revisit Whitetree since there is a question about Bran's tree dreams.  I've always assumed it was Bloodraven who is coming to Bran as a tree but I've had second thoughts.

 

The twisted mouth and repeatedly tasting blood puts Whitetree on the table.  Most trees just have a slash for a mouth. Bran says it is like the tree in Winterfell.  That tree is described as a great wierwood, ancient, at least 10,000 years .

Whitetree is the biggest weirwood Jon has ever seen, so larger and older than the Winterfell tree.

This is the one tree that is described with a 'twisted' mouth and we know that is has received if not blood but burnt offerings recently. 

Bran is afraid of the tree dreams.  Could it be this face that he sees? 

I'm not sure that its either.

The trees, or rather the consciousness occupying them aren't individuals and I don't believe that Bloodraven is any more either. or at least not in any meaningful sense. He has been almost wholly absorbed into the tree, and what Bran, and we through Bran, sees is a corpse puppet. Bloodraven has not been kept alive in a corporeal sense, but rather his soul has kept with its head above the water so to speak, just long enough to be able to communicate with the still human Bran in a way that the trees alone can't do.

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7 hours ago, JNR said:

I consider this an important fact because it tells me that weirwoods probably keep growing even after they're 10,000 years old.

Do they ever stop?   Past a certain point, would an incredibly ancient weirwood, perhaps, grow so large as to resemble multiple weirwoods very close together, especially if over millennia, there were soil buildup, obscuring the common base trunk?

I wonder if it really one organism, if the trees are all connected by the root systems with saplings growing from the roots instead seed.  Especially since Bran is instructed to go down into the roots of BR's tree and he ends up in Winterfell instead. 

This puts me in mind of the great trees and your comment suggesting that the tree at the Night Fort might be an extension of Whitetree. There is some text to suggest that Bran is using that tree when he appears to Jon as tree-Bran.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

Bran forced himself to look around. The morning was cold but bright, the sun shining down from a hard blue sky, but he did not like the noises. The wind made a nervous whistling sound as it shivered through the broken towers, the keeps groaned and settled, and he could hear rats scrabbling under the floor of the great hall. The Rat Cook's children running from their father. The yards were small forests where spindly trees rubbed their bare branches together and dead leaves scuttled like roaches across patches of old snow. There were trees growing where the stables had been, and a twisted white weirwood pushing up through the gaping hole in the roof of the domed kitchen. Even Summer was not at ease here. Bran slipped inside his skin, just for an instant, to get the smell of the place. He did not like that either. 

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

The Reeds decided that they would sleep in the kitchens, a stone octagon with a broken dome. It looked to offer better shelter than most of the other buildings, even though a crooked weirwood had burst up through the slate floor beside the huge central well, stretching slantwise toward the hole in the roof, its bone-white branches reaching for the sun. It was a queer kind of tree, skinnier than any other weirwood that Bran had ever seen and faceless as well, but it made him feel as if the old gods were with him here, at least.

 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

"We should sleep," Jojen said solemnly, after they were full. The fire was burning low. He stirred it with a stick. "Perhaps I'll have another green dream to show us the way."

Hodor was already curled up and snoring lightly. From time to time he thrashed beneath his cloak, and whimpered something that might have been "Hodor." Bran wriggled closer to the fire. The warmth felt good, and the soft crackling of flames soothed him, but sleep would not come. Outside the wind was sending armies of dead leaves marching across the courtyards to scratch faintly at the doors and windows. The sounds made him think of Old Nan's stories. He could almost hear the ghostly sentinels calling to each other atop the Wall and winding their ghostly warhorns. Pale moonlight slanted down through the hole in the dome, painting the branches of the weirwood as they strained up toward the roof. It looked as if the tree was trying to catch the moon and drag it down into the well. Old gods, Bran prayed, if you hear me, don't send a dream tonight. Or if you do, make it a good dream. The gods made no answer.

 

It's described as: skinny, twisted,crooked, breaking through slate floor and reaching for the moonlight and sunlight.  On top of that GRRM throws in the word queer which he also uses to describe the Wall.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI

Jon frowned in disbelief. "That's … queer."

"You think so?" She knelt and scratched Ghost behind his ear. "Your Wall is a queer place, but there is power here, if you will use it. Power in you, and in this beast. You resist it, and that is your mistake. Embrace it. Use it."

Compare the skinny tree to Jon's vision of Tree-Bran:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon VII

A weirwood.

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

And to Dany's vision:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

Most people think the blue rose is Jon, but I think this is Bran using the tree at the Night Fort, a chink in the Wall, accessing the power of the Wall and the Black Gate. 

Melisandre says Jon can access the power of the Wall and I assume she means through her but it looks to me like Bran has accessed using the great weirwood at Whitetree.

Edited by LynnS

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2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The trees, or rather the consciousness occupying them aren't individuals and I don't believe that Bloodraven is any more either. or at least not in any meaningful sense. He has been almost wholly absorbed into the tree, and what Bran, and we through Bran, sees is a corpse puppet. Bloodraven has not been kept alive in a corporeal sense, but rather his soul has kept with its head above the water so to speak, just long enough to be able to communicate with the still human Bran in a way that the trees alone can't do.

I think he is pretty much gone as an individual as well. 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children," Bran said. "The singers, I mean."

"In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers."

Also here we have a reference to the ancient trees.  The great weirwoods like Winterfell and Whitetree. 

Edited by LynnS

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21 hours ago, JNR said:

 

The app states clearly (no rumor) that Aerys sent Hightower to the TOJ, where Hightower found Rhaegar and brought him back to King's Landing.

If so, then Aerys knew the rumor was right, because Rhaegar had been at the TOJ.  

So Aerys would have believed Lyanna was also at the TOJ, and he would have had her taken hostage.  That's quite clear

Furthermore, even before knowing the rumor was right, Aerys surely would have sent Hightower with orders to bring back Lyanna if she were there (because the rumor was true).  

 

In all fairness its possible that Hightower tooled up, agreed that Lyanna was in no condition to travel and remained at the tower precisely for that reason, sending Rhaegar on ahead while he remained guarding the King's prisoner [Lyanna] and keeping an eye on the other two.

That said, I remain very mindful of GRRM's warning about a fever dream.

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6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The trees, or rather the consciousness occupying them aren't individuals and I don't believe that Bloodraven is any more either. or at least not in any meaningful sense.

Well, he does frequently use first person to mean himself.  He also talks about his individual past, for instance in saying that he was named Brynden, that many have been named after him, that he has seen a brother he hated and a sister he loved, etc.  This is the language of individuality.

But I also think that it's a struggle for him to bring his consciousness back to his body. 

Quote

 

"When?" Bran wanted to know.

"In a year, or three, or ten. That I have not glimpsed. It will come in time, I promise you. But I am tired now, and the trees are calling me. We will resume on the morrow."

 

And when he is "in the trees," I think he does lose his individuality.

So he is shifting his consciousness from the weirnet back to his body, to teach Bran, and vice versa.  But shifting back to his body is difficult and tiring, because his body is flying on fumes.

 

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54 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

In all fairness its possible that Hightower tooled up, agreed that Lyanna was in no condition to travel and remained at the tower precisely for that reason, sending Rhaegar on ahead while he remained guarding the King's prisoner [Lyanna] and keeping an eye on the other two.

That said, I remain very mindful of GRRM's warning about a fever dream.

It doesn't seem like much of a secure place to keep such an important prisoner or much of a secret if rumour had it.  I wouldn't discount that Aerys had her all along and that she was kept prisoner at KL though.  But he never plays that card.  Can we be sure Rhaegar and the three KG were at the ToJ the whole time they were missing?  They never actually tell Ned in his dream where they were; only that they were far away.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man's memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold.

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

Aren't we just assuming that they were at the ToJ the whole time? 

What vow did they swear?  Brienne says that a vow made to the dead is the most sacred vow.  Jaime is asked why he isn't dead if Aerys is dead.  Perhaps their vow to Aerys has the weight of the NW vow and they are not released from it until they are dead. 

The don't bend the knee and they don't flee; they picked the time and place.

Edited by LynnS

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42 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

In all fairness its possible that Hightower tooled up, agreed that Lyanna was in no condition to travel and remained at the tower precisely for that reason, sending Rhaegar on ahead while he remained guarding the King's prisoner [Lyanna] and keeping an eye on the other two.

OK, let's go with this.  In that scenario, here's what happens next:

• Rhaegar returns to King's Landing.  This we know did happen.

• Aerys thus knows that the rumor was correct.  Rhaegar was at the TOJ.

• Aerys also knows that Lyanna was also almost certainly at the TOJ, because the rumor was correct.

• Aerys sends more men to the TOJ to capture Lyanna.  He notifies Ned and Robert he holds her.  How do they like the sound of that?  He doesn't need to move her to King's Landing; he just needs to control her, so he can use her as a hostage.

• The entire course of the war is now changed from the canonical version.

• How do Ned and Robert react?  Well, if the Rebellion doesn't end, because Ned and Robert just accept Aerys will kill Lyanna, then Aerys -- always paranoid of his safety -- recalls his three Kingsguard from the TOJ to defend him.  He knows they are Targ loyalists and he wants all the defense he can get.  He also orders Lyanna to be killed.

• Because they're loyalists who swore a vow, the three KG then obey Aerys' orders, and return to King's Landing to honor their vow and defend Aerys.  All three die or are wounded in the Sack defending him.

But none of this ever happened; we can be quite sure of that.  

So I stand by my premise that the app text is, as the kids say, total BS.

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11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It doesn't seem like much of a secure place to keep such an important prisoner or much of a secret if rumour had it.  I wouldn't discount that Aerys had her all along and that she was kept prisoner at KL though.  But he never plays that card.  Can we be sure Rhaegar and the three KG were at the ToJ the whole time they were missing?  They never actually tell Ned in his dream where they were; only that they were far away.

Aren't we just assuming that they were at the ToJ the whole time? 

What vow did they swear?  Brienne says that a vow made to the dead is the most sacred vow.  Jaime is asked why he isn't dead if Aerys is dead.  Perhaps their vow to Aerys has the weight of the NW vow and they are not released from it until they are dead. 

The don't bend the knee and they don't flee; they picked the time and place.

This is why I keep on referencing that SSM about the "fever dream"; in terms of warning us that the story isn't to be taken literally its about as subtle as a train crash

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11 minutes ago, JNR said:

OK, let's go with this.  In that scenario, here's what happens next:

• Rhaegar returns to King's Landing.  This we know did happen.

• Aerys thus knows that the rumor was correct.  Rhaegar was at the TOJ.

• Aerys also knows that Lyanna was also almost certainly at the TOJ, because the rumor was correct.

• Aerys sends more men to the TOJ to capture Lyanna.  He notifies Ned and Robert he holds her.  How do they like the sound of that?  He doesn't need to move her to King's Landing; he just needs to control her, so he can use her as a hostage.

• The entire course of the war is now changed from the canonical version.

• How do Ned and Robert react?  Well, if the Rebellion doesn't end, because Ned and Robert just accept Aerys will kill Lyanna, then Aerys -- always paranoid of his safety -- recalls his three Kingsguard from the TOJ to defend him.  He knows they are Targ loyalists and he wants all the defense he can get.  He also orders Lyanna to be killed.

• Because they're loyalists who swore a vow, the three KG then obey Aerys' orders, and return to King's Landing to honor their vow and defend Aerys.  All three die or are wounded in the Sack defending him.

But none of this ever happened; we can be quite sure of that.  

So I stand by my premise that the app text is, as the kids say, total BS.

I refer to the answer I just gave.

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http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Concerning_the_Tower_of_Joy

January 02, 2002

CONCERNING THE TOWER OF JOY

 

I have a question which I'm sure you can (and will?) answer. It's about the Tower of Joy. The image we get from Ned's description is pretty powerful. But it doesn't make sense. The top three kingsguards, including the lord commander and the best knight in ages, Ser Arthur Dayne are present there. Lyanna is in the tower, she asked Ned to promise him something. This, so says the general consensus us little Jon Snow, who is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's. No sense denying this ;)

However, what are the Kingsguards doing fighting Eddard? Eddard would never hurt Lyanna, nor her child. The little one would be safe with Eddard as well, him being a close relative. So I ask you, was there someone else with Lyanna and Jon?

 

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

 

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

Edited by Black Crow

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12 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

This is why I keep on referencing that SSM about the "fever dream"; in terms of warning us that the story isn't to be taken literally its about as subtle as a train crash

The Lyanna aspect of the fever dream is a lot more difficult to pick apart. The dream changes when the sword alive with light makes an appearance.  Ned buries the KG beneath a round tower or what remains of it; Lyanna is in the crypts beneath a round tower at Winterfell.  The death of Arthur and the death of Lyanna seem to be represented by a blood red sky and a storm of rose petals blue as the eyes of death.

Edited by LynnS

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Edit: Ah, I see. Implicit in the app's version of events is the idea that Rhaegar's location was known enough (at least to the Crown) that Hightower could be sent to successfully retrieve him.

Edit 2: In fact, scratch my whole post, as I missed the point that the post was all about demonstrating that the information in the app doesn't reconcile with the behavior of the characters in the text.

Edited by Matthew.

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