Heresy 204; of cabbages, prophecies and kings

[Brad Stark]

50 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Ned basically asked them to surrender but instead they fought. As I said earlier, that's what the conversation was about. At no point did Ned ask where's my sister or say release her and we can all walk away from here.

At no point were we told Ned's reason for the fight, but there was a reason.  5 of his friends died, he killed 3 men he respected, and he easily could have been killed himself.   He didn't attack out of boredom.

[Brad Stark]

45 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

We know very little of course, but an infatuation by Rhaegar need not be reciprocated.

Again we know nothing about the abduction, although I find suggestions that it occurred at or near the Inn at the Crossroads to be plausible.

However Lyanna did not simply disappear as the Lord Stark's daughter did. No-one knew that Bael had plucked her until she returned. It was a mystery.

Lyanna is known to have been kidnapped.

This means there were witnesses who saw what happened, whether they were members of her escort or innocent travellers. They told a story of an abduction, which for all we know might have been a bloody one, not of a runaway bride laughing as she galloped off with her true love.

We also know North of the Wall wildling women are kidnapped as an act of courtship.  Lyanna was likely the knight of the laughing tree, and similar to Arya in personality, she wasn't passive in any way, and likely would have gone down fighting if she didn't want to be kidnapped.  

We know the version of events we see is from Ned and Robert's perspective and other people who lived.  We don't know the version as it would have been told by Rhaear,  Lyanna, Arthur or other people who died.  

We also know our own society's views on women hundreds of years ago.   Women were property of their husbands and property of their fathers before they were married.   Wether Lyanna consented would not have mattered,  it was whether her father consented,  at least by the rules of our society hundreds of years ago.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

At no point were we told Ned's reason for the fight, but there was a reason.  5 of his friends died, he killed 3 men he respected, and he easily could have been killed himself.   He didn't attack out of boredom.

Ned didn't attack them out of boredom or anything else.

[Lady Dyanna]

On 2/1/2018 at 2:45 PM, Feather Crystal said:

I'd like to propose an alternate dialog based on Arya and Sansa's respective escapes from Kings Landing, because I believe they mirror (and note things are opposite in mirrors) Lyanna and Ashara.

Sandor Clegane is a mirrored (opposite) Arthur Dayne. The former rejects the title of a "white knight" and everything the position implies, while the latter is held up as the shining example of a gallant and valiant one. 

Arya, Ned noted, was very much like Lyanna - a wild rebellious girl that bucked the traditional norms and brandished a sword. She was even complimented on her horsemanship by the former master-of-horse's son. I posit that Sandor and Arya retraced Arthur and Lyanna's trail through the Riverlands, but what happened at the end? Arya left Sandor to die and made her way onto a ship to Braavos. 

Sansa, on the other hand, slipped out of Kings Landing with the help of Petyr BAELish. She too seems to mirror Lyanna in some respects, but I am of the opinion that when she left she was actually mirroring Ashara Dayne, but who was Ashara's "Bael"? In my earlier post up-thread I suggested that Ned's fever dream was a fight between 7 northmen and a three-headed Bael. Arthur was one of the heads, so I theorize that Arthur snuck Ashara out of the castle as her Bael. Now recall this would all be happening around the time of Lyanna's disappearance, so before the actual Rebellion starts.

Arya didn't leave Kings Landing with Sandor. She was smuggled out by a man of the Nights Watch (Yoren), and didn't leave his possession until the attack on the abandoned holdfast by Ser Amory Lorch. (Any chance that this location mirrors "a tower long fallen"?) But I digress. Arya and her friends are captured by Ser Gregor's soldiers - (Polliver) - and taken to Harrenhal - lots of things happen here, Weasel soup, cup-bearer to Roose Bolton, another escape, then later another capture by the Brotherhood Without Banners, before ending up with Sandor. There're so many things that happen to Arya that I cannot help but wonder if Lyanna experienced some of the same?

Circling back to Sansa. Sandor asks her to come with him. She declines, but eventually ends up leaving with the help of Bael. If Sandor is Arthur's inversion and Sansa is Ashara - Ashara would have had no such problem accepting Arthur's help leaving. Recall that Sansa dyes her hair and pretends to be Bael's daughter, eventually ending up at the Eyrie. Arya and Sandor were on their way to the Eyrie and decide to go to Riverrun instead. In a similar vein "a man (Bael)" and "a maid" travel as a fisherman and his daughter - a tale regaled by Ned. IMO the maid was likely Ashara brought to the Eyrie by her brother who was the identity of the "dead" fisherman. This may be an alternate narrative for how Ned came to have Arthur's sword.

I understand that I have a conflict with Arthur being with both Lyanna and Ashara, but recall that Arya didn't connect with Sandor until after the Brotherhood W/O Banners. Then she and Sansa were nearly reunited at the Eyrie, but Sandor took her to Riverrun instead. Sansa stays at the Eyrie and Arya goes on to Braavos. We've got a missing Ashara. Well, we do have the story that she jumped from a tower, and towers are just inverted wells which lead to the underworld. Ashara is "dead" to the world, but it is possible that she's the one that went on to Braavos, while Lyanna stayed behind?

Going further back in history we have Elia being attacked by the Kingswood Brotherhood - and Ser Gerold Hightower was injured. (a variation where the maid was fine and Bael was injured) King Aerys in response sent Arthur Dayne leading a group to put an end to the KWB. There was another group led by Kevan Lannister that mimicked the KWB in holding nobles for money. All of the above are mirrored by the Brotherhood Without Banners, which are led by Beric Dondarrion who was originally sent out by Ned (mirroring Aerys and Arthur) to put an end to raiders led by Ser Gregor Clegane, again in the Riverlands. This is just one example of the wheel of time repeating with differing results. I would include Arianne Martell as repeating a similar situation, with Ser Arys Oakheart leading little Myrcella Lannister to a well where she’s attacked by Gerold Dayne – interesting how his name is like a two-headed Bael, and Myrcella stands in as Bael’s maiden. Arys Oakheart is mirroring Arthur Dayne, and in this version of the wheel of time – HE ends up dead instead of the maiden – executed by a Captain of Guards Areo Hotah.

Where am I going with this? It’s a long alternative narrative for the whereabouts of the Kingsguard, because I believe they played out similar Bael-type roles on the wheel of time.

Have you ever considered the idea that Arya might actually be more reflective of Benjen and what happened with him during the time of RR?  I’m thinking that Lysa might actually be more of a stand-in for Ashara. Don’t forget that she too smuggled a child out of KL to keep him away from the Lannisters. And she’s the one who winds up pushed from a tower. Plus there’s a fair amount of symbolism in the Vale that is reflective of what might have been occurring in Dorne. 

With Arya, I keep going back to the idea that right before the fight with Joffrey, Sansa recalls questioning if she might be a bastard. Then shortly thereafter there is a similar fight at the Wall. One is the Bastard defending the Butchers Boy. The other is the Bastard defending Ser Piggy. Seems like we’re meant to conflate the two somehow. And when I do that, it links it to Benjen in my mind. 

I definitely agree with the idea of a cycle, things are certainly happening over and over again with different people in the roles. There’s even a hint of the Dance of the Dragons that I’ve noticed in the War of Five Kings that has Cersei being reminiscent of Rhaenyra. And I’m pretty sure that I agree that something happened at the conclusion of the War of Five Kings that did something to that cycle. I’m not sure that it’s an actual complete reversal, but I think it did change the roles that each family might play. 

[Matthew.]

7 hours ago, JNR said:

Ned has only heard (somehow? from someone?) that "it was said" Rhaegar named it the TOJ... 

It doesn't seem particularly odd that Eddard would have picked up that tidbit of information. He could have learned it from:

1. Whoever tipped him off to the ToJ in the first place.
Surely the Lord of the North and a small group that included lords and heirs weren't just bumbling around in enemy territory, hoping that they would find something interesting--they had a destination, and a purpose. 

2. Any non-combatant personnel present at the ToJ itself (more on this later). 

3. Anyone at Starfall that may have been entrusted with knowledge of where Lyanna was being held, or that may have been a part of Rhaegar's conspiracy.

I'd like to add briefly to number 2, as it appears to be commonly read (even by RLJ proponents) that Eddard and Howland were the only two people, period, to walk away living from the ToJ. Unless there's some additional passage I've forgotten, I'm guessing that's an assumption based on the following: 

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They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. 

A passage that, IMO, can just as easily be read as "only two of the seven had lived to ride away," as opposed to Eddard and Howland literally being the only two living people present in the aftermath of the showdown. Were there no servants? Minor guards? A midwife? 

[Black Crow]

19 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Have you ever considered the idea that Arya might actually be more reflective of Benjen and what happened with him during the time of RR?  I’m thinking that Lysa might actually be more of a stand-in for Ashara. Don’t forget that she too smuggled a child out of KL to keep him away from the Lannisters. And she’s the one who winds up pushed from a tower. Plus there’s a fair amount of symbolism in the Vale that is reflective of what might have been occurring in Dorne. 

With Arya, I keep going back to the idea that right before the fight with Joffrey, Sansa recalls questioning if she might be a bastard. Then shortly thereafter there is a similar fight at the Wall. One is the Bastard defending the Butchers Boy. The other is the Bastard defending Ser Piggy. Seems like we’re meant to conflate the two somehow. And when I do that, it links it to Benjen in my mind. 

I definitely agree with the idea of a cycle, things are certainly happening over and over again with different people in the roles. There’s even a hint of the Dance of the Dragons that I’ve noticed in the War of Five Kings that has Cersei being reminiscent of Rhaenyra. And I’m pretty sure that I agree that something happened at the conclusion of the War of Five Kings that did something to that cycle. I’m not sure that it’s an actual complete reversal, but I think it did change the roles that each family might play. 

Its an interesting way of looking at it and whatever way you slice it up GRRM's writing style sees words, turns of phrase and descriptions and so on recycled time and time again. For some there is an arcane reason for these parallels, as a writer myself I'm more inclined to see it simply as his style. We've also noted how a lot of ASoIF is not only drawn from external influences, such as Conrad's Heart of Drakness, but from his other work; taking stories like the Ice Dragon and A Song for Lya and expanding and developing them in interesting ways. Its his style.

Now as to the parallels you refer to, I suspect that the same thing is happening, that they are not connected or inverted, at least not directly, but rather that GRRM is playing out the same scenarios with slightly different angles and outcomes just as the story as a whole is told from different POVs.

[Black Crow]

6 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

A passage that, IMO, can just as easily be read as "only two of the seven had lived to ride away," as opposed to Eddard and Howland literally being the only two living people present in the aftermath of the showdown. Were there no servants? Minor guards? A midwife? 

I'm sure that you're right, although the eight cairns would rule out Eddard and Howland riding off in one direction and Ser Arthur in another, but who knows, it wouldn't be the first time an empty grave was used to cover up an escape. However I'm pretty sure there was an SSM not so long ago where the question was raised with someone in an audience trying [unsuccessfully] to trap GRRM into an admission that the reference to two only related to grown men.

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I'm sure that you're right, although the eight cairns would rule out Eddard and Howland riding off in one direction and Ser Arthur in another, but who knows, it wouldn't be the first time an empty grave was used to cover up an escape.

I do not mean to imply that any of the KG survived, only that the story, as written, does not necessarily indicate that there were no other people already present at the ToJ besides the 3 KG and (theoretically) Lyanna. 

For me, the picture painted of the ToJ is far less clear than both RLJ proponents and critics indicate, and we "don't know what we don't know." Were there any other structures near the tower--living quarters for those tasked with keeping watch in the tower under normal circumstances? Was the tower long abandoned? If not, what was its purpose: to directly guard the Prince's Pass? To watch from an elevated distance, and send a rider or a raven if one spots trouble brewing? 

If Lyanna was there, and she was pregnant, is there anyone that would have been tasked with seeing to her other than the Kingsguard? 

It may be that the interpretation most people have arrived at is the correct one, but I'd always taken that "yet only two had lived to ride away" line to specifically refer to the combatants, and even more specifically to Ned's coterie (though, again, I don't believe any of the KG survived).

[Lady Dyanna]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Its an interesting way of looking at it and whatever way you slice it up GRRM's writing style sees words, turns of phrase and descriptions and so on recycled time and time again. For some there is an arcane reason for these parallels, as a writer myself I'm more inclined to see it simply as his style. We've also noted how a lot of ASoIF is not only drawn from external influences, such as Conrad's Heart of Drakness, but from his other work; taking stories like the Ice Dragon and A Song for Lya and expanding and developing them in interesting ways. Its his style.

I agree with just about all of what you say here. However, I would argue that at certain points throughout the series GRRM, becomes slightly more obvious about what he is doing. It’s not simply a turn of phrase, or a slightly recycled description. It’s at these points that he’s almost trying to pull out certain strands of memory in the reader. Almost a clue to pay attention to this, it’s somehow important. And nearly every time I’ve seen him do this, it somehow seems to relate to tying one or more characters or even the setting to another event or setting  in the past. 

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Now as to the parallels you refer to, I suspect that the same thing is happening, that they are not connected or inverted, at least not directly, but rather that GRRM is playing out the same scenarios with slightly different angles and outcomes just as the story as a whole is told from different POVs.

This may very well be. That’s the one thing that drives me crazy about this all. I’m not so sure that I’ve been able to consistently prove any type of pattern at this point. Sometimes things seem to be inverted, sometimes parallel and sometimes turned at 90 degrees. It might just mean that as you say, there is no pattern present. But for right now, I’m still standing by the idea that I just haven’t put enough pieces together yet to recognize what exactly the pattern is. 

[Frey family reunion]

16 hours ago, LynnS said:

I am still reluctant to paint a picture of Rhaegar as someone who would kidnap Lyann because they were desperately in love or that he had some dark purpose in fulfilling a prophecy.  We only know Rhaegar through the company he kept or the testimonials of his character by those who knew him. 
 

 

This is Jaime's recollection of Arthur Dayne who is Rhaegar's closest friend from boyhood.  It's difficult for me to believe that Rhaegar's character wasn't similarly affected.  It's the ghost of Rhaegar who accuses Jaime of failing to protect his children.  This may be a guilt projection on Jaime's part; but it's also a reflection of Rhaegar's character. 

The protection of children or the murder of children is the cause of conflict between Robert and Ned, perhaps an unresolved conflict.  I think Rhaegar and Arthur Dayne at least would have this in common with Ned.  Perhaps the reason why Ned has no animosity towards Rhaegar and holds Arthur Dayne in such high esteem.

We also have comparisons between Dany and Rhaegar; that she is more like her Rhaegar than Aerys; that she shows no signs of the madness that consumed her father and by extension, neither did Rhaegar.   Dany is a defender of the downtrodden and Rhaegar seems to have wanted to restore the realm to a just rule. 

So whatever is behind the disappearance of Lyanna; I don't think it has anything to do with Rhaegar forcing the prophecy one way or the other.  If he thought he was the pwip; that alone would account for his interest in the prophecy and his purpose.  At one point, he identifies that part of that purpose is to be a warrior.  We later learn that it's his son Aegon who is the pwip; so what purpose is there in kidnapping Lyanna for procreation?  It seems to me that all his efforts would go to protecting the pwip.

His fascination with Summerhall is curious; a place where he liked to sleep under the stars.  I think it possible that he sought out the Ghost of High Heart there and composed and traded songs for dreams. Aemon mentions dreams but not the dreamer.  This may be where he learns of Lyanna and why he looked twice at her at Harrenhal.   He doesn't actually crown Lyanna; it's Ned who does that in his dreams.  So I do like the notion that Lyanna is the May Queen who dies to bring in the new season.  But I don't think this means that Rhaegar is responsible for that happening.   

The fact that Aemon thinks they got it wrong over the hatching of dragon eggs; laments that they didn't learn anything from Summerhall; suggests that this was discussed with Rhaegar along with the AA prophecy and the role of the Warrior of Justice.  Rhaegar may have thought that he was meant to fulfill that part of the prophecy.  Aemon concludes that it is proof that Dany is the one; not that Rhaegar was fooling around with rituals of sacrifice to hatch eggs.  All Aemon does is confirm that it's knowledge they had lost.  

That fact that Rhaegar names the pwip Aegon; tells me that he thinks the prince is meant to restore peace, prosperity and justice to the realm and I think this is Rhaegar's intent for calling a great council.     

I'm inclined to think that the 'storm of rose petals, blue as the eyes of death' has more to do with Bran than Jon. It's Bran who will be born as a consequence of Arthur's death and the reason why Howland intervened.  The blood-streaked sky or red dawn is most likely a vision of the red comet; the sign and portent of the birth of dragons.

 

But it wasn’t Aemon who laments about not learning anything from Summerhall, it was Alester Florent.  Aemon only mentions Summerhall as it related to his belief that Rhaegar was the Prince that was Promised:

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“It was a prince that was promised, not a princess.  Rhaegar, I thought... the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died.  

Aemon than believes Dany is the princess that was promised because the hatching of dragons proved it.

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“Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke.  The dragons prove it.”

And what contributed to the birth of Dany’s dragons?  Three deaths.  Even Danaerys believes this to be the case:

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“They are mine” she said fiercely.  They had been born from her faith and her need, given life by the deaths of her husband and unborn son and the maegi Mirri Maz Duur.

And interestingly enough Dany was responsible for all three sacrifices: first Rhaego:

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“It is not a matter of gold or horses.  This is bloodmagic, lady.  Only death may pay for life.”

”Death?” Dany wrapped her arms around herself protectively, rocked back and forth on her heels.  “My death?”  She told herself she would die for him, if she must.  She was blood of the dragon, she would not be afraid.  Her brother Rhaegar had died for the woman he loved.

”No,”. Mirri Maz Duur promised.  “Not your death, Khaleesi.”

Dany trembled with relief.  “Do it.”

Quote

Dany turned to the godswife.  “You warned me that only death could pay for life.  I thought you meant the horse.”  

“No,” Mirri Maz Duur said.  “That was a lie you told yourself.  You knew the price.”

Had she?  Had she?  If I look back I am lost.

And then Drogo:

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Inside the tent Dany found a cushion, soft silk stuffed with feathers.  She clutched it to her breasts as she walked back out to Drogo, to her sun-and-stars.  If I look back I am lost.  It hurst even to walk, and she wanted to sleep, to sleep and not to dream.  

She knelt, kissed Drogon on the lips, and pressed the cushion down across his face.

And finally Mirri

Quote

As she climbed down off the pyre, she noticed Mirri Maz Duur watching her.  “You are mad,”  the godswife said hoarsely.

”Is it so far from madness to wisdom?”  Dany asked.  “Ser Jorah, take this maegi and bind her to the pyre.”

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“You will not hear me scream,”  Mirri responded as the oil dripped from her hair and soaked her clothing.

”I will,”  Dany said, “but it is not your screams I want, only your life.  I remember what you told me.  Only death can pay for life.”

But I wonder perhaps if there should have been a fourth.  After all, Targaryens aren’t supposed to be fireproof.  Dany should have been burned in the funeral pyre, yet perhaps there was some magic cast which prevented the fourth and final sacrifice, a sacrifice that have been the true fulfillment of the Prince that was Promised prophecy.

What if the maegi, in fact accomplished her purpose?  Perhaps her spell wasn’t meant to keep her from burning, perhaps it was meant after all to keep Dany from burning.  In other words what if the Prince that was Promised was the final sacrifice, and his/her consciousness was meant to enter the hatched dragon, to bring about the Targaryen’s ultimate end game, being reborn as an actual dragon.

Isn’t that what Dany really dreamed of?

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Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again.  Viserys was not in it this time.  There was only her and the dragon.  It’s scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood.  Her blood, Dany sensed.  It’s eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet.  She could hear it singing to her.  She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean.  She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain.  She felt strong and new and fierce.

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“Faster,” they cried, “faster, faster.”  She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched.  “Faster!” the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward.  A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings.  And Daenerys Targaryen flew.

”... wake the dragon ...”

So now let’s return to Rhaegar and the tower of joy.  We know from Dany’s own hatching, that pyromancers and wildfire aren’t necessary to give birth to a dragon. Dany’s funeral pyre was made of wood and oil.   So their absence isn’t necessarily significant.  But it appears that there are some necessary ingredients, deaths to pay for life and some type of blood magic.  

So perhaps the tower of joy was supposed to be something similar, but Eddard stopped the proceedings before everything was ready.  And no, I agree that Eddard doesn’t find Arthur a monster, which seems to be at odds with this scenario.  Yet of course, the Kingsguards stood by while Ned’s father was burned alive, and his brother strangled.  Yet Eddard’s disdain was solely for Jaime for slaying the same King that killed his father and brother.  In other words, I think Eddard realized that Arthur was duty bound, he swore and oath.  

My guess is the three Kingsguards were more than happy to have been killed rather than fulfill the grim task they were duty bound to see to the end, and I think Eddard realized this.

But now let’s turn to Rhaegar.  If Rhaegar was willing to sacrifice humans, perhaps even children, perhaps even his own child,  in order to fulfill a prophecy that he truly believes is necessary to save the greater good in the face of the Long Night, does this make him a monster?  Isn’t this the exact same conflict that Stannis has in deciding whether or not to let Melisandre sacrifice Edric?

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“His name is Edric Storm, sire.”

”I know his name.  Was there ever a name so apt?  It proclaims his bastardy, his high birth, and the turmoil he brings with him.  Edric Storm.  There, I said it.  Are you satisfied, my lord Hand?”

”Edric —“ he started.

”— is one boy!  He may be the best boy who ever drew breath and it would not matter.  My duty is to the realm”  His hand swept across the Painted Table.  “How many boys dwell in Westeros?  How many girls?  How many men, how many women?  The darkness will devour them all, she says.  The night that never ends.  She talks of prophecies ... a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone ... she speaks of signs and swears they point to me.  I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king.  Yet dare I disregard her?”  he ground his teeth.  “We do not choose our destinies.  Yet we must ... we must do our duty,no?  Great or small, we must do our duty.

 

[Black Crow]

Its possible and am very much in agreement that Rhaegar's actions or intended actions are at least open to question and need to be re-examined critically. I would, however, propose a slightly different scenario as to the King's Guard, namely that if dragons were to be awakened somehow, Rhaegar was the guy to do it and that the King's Guard were literally left there holding the baby while he nipped round the corner to deal with the rebellion, fully intending to come back later with the kindling and matches; hence their discomfort when Ned tooled up and they were sitting there, trapped by their last orders.

[Black Crow]

14 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I do not mean to imply that any of the KG survived, only that the story, as written, does not necessarily indicate that there were no other people already present at the ToJ besides the 3 KG and (theoretically) Lyanna. 

For me, the picture painted of the ToJ is far less clear than both RLJ proponents and critics indicate, and we "don't know what we don't know." Were there any other structures near the tower--living quarters for those tasked with keeping watch in the tower under normal circumstances? Was the tower long abandoned? If not, what was its purpose: to directly guard the Prince's Pass? To watch from an elevated distance, and send a rider or a raven if one spots trouble brewing? 

If Lyanna was there, and she was pregnant, is there anyone that would have been tasked with seeing to her other than the Kingsguard? 

It may be that the interpretation most people have arrived at is the correct one, but I'd always taken that "yet only two had lived to ride away" line to specifically refer to the combatants, and even more specifically to Ned's coterie (though, again, I don't believe any of the KG survived).

Sorry, I didn't intend to imply you were suggesting that there were other survivors, rather it was a more general comment based on that suggestion as articulated by others. The piece below, which I make no apology for repeating, points up the absurdity of the notion that it was literally true that only three members of the King's Guard had been living for months at the tower with no staff and faced off the magnificent seven with nobody to watch but the buzzards.

Realistically there are just two alternatives. Either the tower was properly staffed with household servants and grooms, who just don't get mentioned because they aint important, or, nobody was living at the tower and it was picked as a suitable location on the border between Dorne and the rest of the realm, where the 10 participants could meet.

Aside from questions as to the condition of the tower the very fact it was torn down afterwards to make cairns does not suggest that it was an inhabited building.

[Black Crow]

And here, once again is the only true and authentic story of life in the tower:

Once upon a time in the West…

“I spy with my little eye,” said Dayne as he polished his sword. “Something beginning with R”

“Rock,” replied Whent with utter certainty

“Got it in one, go on, it’s your turn”

“I spy something beginning with R”

“Need something different”

“It is different, it’s a red rock”

“They’re all bloody red,” pointed out Hightower, scratching his crotch moodily. “Anyway, its time to go and get the bread and milk; two pints, and see if you can get a newspaper while you’re at it”

“It’ll be out of date. Always is. And so’s the milk”

“I’m not bothered about the news, it’s always the same. I want to do the crossword”

“You did one of them before”

“Didn’t finish it though, did I? You got caught short that night, remember?”

“Bloody sour milk, sorry about that”

“I hear the Dothraki drink themselves silly on the stuff once its fermented”

“Might try that,” commented Dayne, wistfully.  “Getting beastly drunk has to be better than staring at rocks”

“Well who’s fault is that? Who was it got her preggers, and then his nibs turns round and puts on his sanctimonious go to meeting face and says it won’t be fair to take you off to the wars and let the little bastard grow up without ever seeing his father”

“Not my fault… well I suppose it is, but what about you two?”

“Ah high politicks that one,” says Hightower loftily, then produces his famous impersonation of the last best hope of House Targaryen;  ‘I’m going to speak VERY FIRMLY to Pater about making changes,’ says he, ’and anyway I know you can’t stand the sight of blood’

“Smell of burnt toast more like, knowing his Old Man” grumbled Whent .

“Speaking of toast, are you going for the bread or not?”

“Not my turn, I did the washing up last night”

“I don’t care, I’m the Lord Commander and what I say goes… hullo… what’s this? Riders!”

“Can’t be the guy to read the gas meter, he came last week.”

“And there’s seven of them”

“Oh shit” muttered Dayne. “Seven; warrior, smith, maiden, mother, crone and all that jazz… It’s the bloody Jehovah’s Witnesses!”

 

 

[LynnS]

10 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

But now let’s turn to Rhaegar.  If Rhaegar was willing to sacrifice humans, perhaps even children, perhaps even his own child,  in order to fulfill a prophecy that he truly believes is necessary to save the greater good in the face of the Long Night, does this make him a monster?  Isn’t this the exact same conflict that Stannis has in deciding whether or not to let Melisandre sacrifice Edric?

This is the thing... did Rhaegar really have the recipe because that would imply that he was willing to sacrifice Arthur Dayne. 

Spoiler

What is missing is the sacrifice of a maegi or holy blood along with his salt wife and unborn son.

That seems to be a requirement along with a massive blood-letting as we are shown in the Foresaken chapter.  Mirri Maaz Duur is seen in Dany's vision with a dragon bursting from her head.

Unless all of the stuff we see around Mirri Maaz Duur had another purpose.  It may be that one only has to brood eggs for nine months as Dany does to actually hatch the eggs because we know dragons exist in the wild and they must hatch from eggs without any sorcery involved.  It may be that 'waking the dragon' or resurrecting something long dead requires something else.   I think this is the black egg, the larger of the three and why Mirri only has one dragon bursting from her brow.

Are the eggs all long dead or is Illyrio playing to Dany's ignorance on the matter.

Waking the dragon seems to be something different from waking dragons from stone. It's a connection between the Targs and their eggs or eggs as containers of souls. This seems likely to me since the Targs burn their dead and their are no bones to carry the memory of their souls.  The difference between Stark and Targ being that Starks bury the bones in a stone sarcophagus.  The bones eventually disintegrate but a dragon egg does not.

Dany connects to the soul contained in the black egg when she sees the singing dragon and is transformed and reborn as a dragon.  Then she wakes dragons from stone during Mirri's tent ritual exchanging the life of her unborn son to resurrect the soul contained in the black egg.  Followed by the actual hatching of the eggs and Mirri's sacrifice.  

All of these things add up to waking the great dragon or another Targ god; resurrecting Rhaegar as the 'Valyrian sphinx' or Balerion the Dread come again.  Balerion was Aegon the Conqueror's mount and I suspect this is why he says his son is the prince that was promised a dragon.

So if Rhaegar knew all of this and that Dany would be the instrument of his resurrection; then I doubt he needed to sacrifice Lyanna and/or Jon.  What was needed was Dany to sacrifice her unborn son.

That's a lot of stuff to know.  Dany seems to stumble on the process or is guided by the soul in the Black Egg in some way.

There are some common elements between Targ and Stark in this scenario:  the death of a king and his son, a pregnant sister married to a king.  In Dany's case, her unborn child dies and she survives, while in Lyanna's it's the opposite.

Whatever Aerys achieved in killing Rickard and Brandon; Lyanna's son is the next in line as the winter king.  If Lyanna was kidnapped by Rhaegar or Arthur Dayne; it seems more likely to me that it was to stop Aerys from getting his hands on Lyanna.  I think it's more likely that Aerys was obsessed with waking the dragon rather than Rhaegar.  Starfall seems a likely place to send Lyanna, her safety entrusted to Arthur Dayne.

In that scenario; Rhaegar goes to the Trident confident that he can parley with Robert and offer to return Lyanna in good faith ending the conflict between them.

Edit: So it may be that Rhaegar left his sword, horse and shield at Starfall to protect Lyanna as she would have been important to negotiating a peace.  Rhaegar may have thought this was possible given Robert's behavior after the battles of Summerhall where he forgave and feasted his enemy.

The 3 KG would probably have been party to Rhaegar's plan and this may account for the sadness in Arthur's eyes when it failed and the determination to die instead of bending the knee to Robert. 

It might even be that Lyanna is the sister who threw herself off a tower at Starfall rather than Ashara.

That would certainly make a sad tale for another time.

[alienarea]

42 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

And here, once again is the only true and authentic story of life in the tower:

Once upon a time in the West…

“I spy with my little eye,” said Dayne as he polished his sword. “Something beginning with R”

“Rock,” replied Whent with utter certainty

“Got it in one, go on, it’s your turn”

“I spy something beginning with R”

“Need something different”

“It is different, it’s a red rock”

“They’re all bloody red,” pointed out Hightower, scratching his crotch moodily. “Anyway, its time to go and get the bread and milk; two pints, and see if you can get a newspaper while you’re at it”

“It’ll be out of date. Always is. And so’s the milk”

“I’m not bothered about the news, it’s always the same. I want to do the crossword”

“You did one of them before”

“Didn’t finish it though, did I? You got caught short that night, remember?”

“Bloody sour milk, sorry about that”

“I hear the Dothraki drink themselves silly on the stuff once its fermented”

“Might try that,” commented Dayne, wistfully.  “Getting beastly drunk has to be better than staring at rocks”

“Well who’s fault is that? Who was it got her preggers, and then his nibs turns round and puts on his sanctimonious go to meeting face and says it won’t be fair to take you off to the wars and let the little bastard grow up without ever seeing his father”

“Not my fault… well I suppose it is, but what about you two?”

“Ah high politicks that one,” says Hightower loftily, then produces his famous impersonation of the last best hope of House Targaryen;  ‘I’m going to speak VERY FIRMLY to Pater about making changes,’ says he, ’and anyway I know you can’t stand the sight of blood’

“Smell of burnt toast more like, knowing his Old Man” grumbled Whent .

“Speaking of toast, are you going for the bread or not?”

“Not my turn, I did the washing up last night”

“I don’t care, I’m the Lord Commander and what I say goes… hullo… what’s this? Riders!”

“Can’t be the guy to read the gas meter, he came last week.”

“And there’s seven of them”

“Oh shit” muttered Dayne. “Seven; warrior, smith, maiden, mother, crone and all that jazz… It’s the bloody Jehovah’s Witnesses!”

 

 

And then a Bollock Brothers tune starts playing in the background: "The leading horse is white, the second horse is red ..."

[LynnS]

I'm going to jump on something else here concerning MMD's tent ritual:
 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VIII

"The maegi," someone else said. Was that Aggo? "Take her to the maegi."

No, Dany wanted to say, no, not that, you mustn't, but when she opened her mouth, a long wail of pain escaped, and the sweat broke over her skin. What was wrong with them, couldn't they see? Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.

 

I'm interpreting this as Dany seeing the great wolf and the great dragon.  What Dany describes as the man wreathed in flame is the soul but not the shape it takes; while the soul inside the great wolf is hidden from her.  Something similar happens with Melisandre when she sees BR and Bran in her fires.  She can't see the soul inside the wolf.  Again something similar happens to Dany when she sees Robb sitting on a throne; with Grey Wind's head attached.

The opposite happens with tree-Bran when he talks to Jon and touches Ghost.  He sees Jon's soul.  So I'm guessing that Melisandre and the fiery lot can only see the soul limned in flame or the shape the soul takes rather than what is hidden beneath.  Which might also explain why Melisandre sees a face and dismisses it because what she sees doesn't fit her image of the Great Other.  I think she may have seen Hodor another shape that Bran takes.

Dany tippy-toes around the shape inside the black dragon when she dreams of herself wearing black armor and riding a dragon or becoming the dragon.  Or when she sees Rhaegar in his armor; which she in turn wears.  In this case, she sees the shape that the soul takes rather than the soul inside but is edging on seeing it's true form:  the man limned in flame.

So I'm not sure that Dany's vision of Rhaego and his standard of a fiery horse is untrue but rather she sees the soul inside the green and copper dragon as her son.  When she drinks shade of the evening and the taste of gold in her mouth; I think this is an allusion to the creme and gold dragon whose flame and crest is shot with gold which would also coincide with Viserys becoming Viserion.  

I still don't account for Drogo's soul being captured in the black egg because Dany sees his soul rise into the stars and he is not dragon-blood.

 

[Brad Stark]

We have several people whose death could be part of the dragons return, Dan's son, her husband and MMD being the 3 deaths given as sacrifices in text, Visrys, Rhaegar and her husband being 3 people she named the dragons after.  Only her husband is in both lists.

If the soul of each dragon is a single former person, it could be either the person it was named after, the person who died as a sacrifice,  or someone else entirely.  We do know all the dragons are loyal to her, where only her husband and maybe her son should be.   Visrys and MMD would be hostile.

[LynnS]

16 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

We have several people whose death could be part of the dragons return, Dan's son, her husband and MMD being the 3 deaths given as sacrifices in text, Visrys, Rhaegar and her husband being 3 people she named the dragons after.  Only her husband is in both lists.

If the soul of each dragon is a single former person, it could be either the person it was named after, the person who died as a sacrifice,  or someone else entirely.  We do know all the dragons are loyal to her, where only her husband and maybe her son should be.   Visrys and MMD would be hostile.

Not necessarily.  The black egg is different from the other two which are smaller.  If dragon eggs act as retainers for the soul; then it's possible the black egg is already occupied while the other two are not.  Dany names it Drogon as a sentimental gesture.  We're already told that she saw his soul depart.  I also question whether someone who is not dragon blood can be contained in a dragon egg.

 

[Brad Stark]

Two posts mentioned Dany thinks she saw Drogo's soul depart as absoute proof of what happened.  It isn't.  And if it was, it doesn't mean his soul can't be called back.

Her choice of names is unusual.  A Targ she never met, a Targ who treated her badly and she essentially had killed and a man who was not a Targ.  The Conqueror's dragons were named after gods.

[wolfmaid7]

3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

If Lyanna wasn't at the TOJ and the KG were, Ned would be happy to let the KG die of old age without surrendering.

 

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

We know very little of course, but an infatuation by Rhaegar need not be reciprocated.

Again we know nothing about the abduction, although I find suggestions that it occurred at or near the Inn at the Crossroads to be plausible.

However Lyanna did not simply disappear as the Lord Stark's daughter did. No-one knew that Bael had plucked her until she returned. It was a mystery.

Lyanna is known to have been kidnapped.

This means there were witnesses who saw what happened, whether they were members of her escort or innocent travellers. They told a story of an abduction, which for all we know might have been a bloody one, not of a runaway bride laughing as she galloped off with her true love.

But Lord's Stark daughter wasn't taken by Bael.Sure from the perspective of her family yeah she was.We are told

"Bael had brought her back?"

"No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. "

So,LSD was missing, yet not missing. This means a couple of details are hiding in the background of this story.

1.Lord Stark's daughter was per Ygritte there all the time.

2. She had to eat so she had accomplices who had to be bringing her food.

3.Bael hit it and ran.I don't think he would be hanging out with her in the crypts for a year.

4.She had been missing for a year.Bael assumed he was the father of her son.

Naturally we assume that Bael is the father.We don't know if that's the truth either.

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

We also know North of the Wall wildling women are kidnapped as an act of courtship.  Lyanna was likely the knight of the laughing tree, and similar to Arya in personality, she wasn't passive in any way, and likely would have gone down fighting if she didn't want to be kidnapped.  

We know the version of events we see is from Ned and Robert's perspective and other people who lived.  We don't know the version as it would have been told by Rhaear,  Lyanna, Arthur or other people who died.  

We also know our own society's views on women hundreds of years ago.   Women were property of their husbands and property of their fathers before they were married.   Wether Lyanna consented would not have mattered,  it was whether her father consented,  at least by the rules of our society hundreds of years ago.

We probably will get a flasback about what happened.Just as important as an event happening is WHEN it happened.I think when this unfolds it will be revealed some of these elements are not sequence.

 

Be back later to finish.