Heresy 204; of cabbages, prophecies and kings

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

 

But Lord's Stark daughter wasn't taken by Bael...

Dabateable, but the point I'm making is that her disappearance was a mystery while Lyanna's was reported as an abduction by Rhaegar which means [a] somebody saw and reported it, and whatever they saw wasn't consensual

[LynnS]

24 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Dabateable, but the point I'm making is that her disappearance was a mystery while Lyanna's was reported as an abduction by Rhaegar which means [a] somebody saw and reported it, and whatever they wasn't consensual

I think it's likely that Lyanna met with some violence on the road and that Rhaegar's name came into the picture.  But I do question the reliability and accuracy of witness statements since we don't know who made the report or what they saw or think they saw.

Quote

Since the 1990s, when DNA testing was first introduced, Innocence Project researchers have reported that 73 percent of the 239 convictions overturned through DNA testing were based on eyewitness testimony. One third of these overturned cases rested on the testimony of two or more mistaken eyewitnesses.  

i do think it's highly likely that someone wanted to get their hands on Lyanna and since the World Book says that Rhaegar and Arthur were in the same vicinity at the same time; we can jump to the conclusion that it was Rhaegar who kidnapped her.  I think it's also possible that he intervened at the crucial moment and sent her off to Starfall with Arthur for safe keeping.  This could be misconstrued as kidnapping her.

[JNR]

22 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

If Lyanna wasn't at the TOJ and the KG were, Ned would be happy to let the KG die of old age without surrendering.

It seems to me we can imagine plausible scenarios in which Ned might fight them whether or not Lyanna was there.  

For instance: Suppose Robert decided to declare them traitors after the Sack.  Suppose he commanded Ned to kill them if he found them at Storm's End.  It's not in the canon, but I can conceive of this.

So Ned leaves Storm's End without finding them there, per the dream, and then encounters them somewhere else.  Does he kill them?  It seems to me he tries, no matter his personal feelings, because that's what Robert commanded him to do.

[JNR]

18 hours ago, Matthew. said:

It doesn't seem particularly odd that Eddard would have picked up that tidbit of information. He could have learned

Certainly he could have.  But my point is that if he did, that doesn't show, or even suggest, that Rhaegar was ever present at the TOJ.  

It only shows that someone told Ned that Rhaegar had named the TOJ... and even that idea might or might not be true.  That would depend on who the someone is, and how well-informed he or she was on this subject.

If someone told Ned the Fist was named by Garth Greenhand, that would not mean that it really was named by Garth Greenhand, or that Garth Greenhand was ever present at the Fist.

[Brad Stark]

29 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Dabateable, but the point I'm making is that her disappearance was a mystery while Lyanna's was reported as an abduction by Rhaegar which means [a] somebody saw and reported it, and whatever they wasn't consensual

We've debated wether Lyanna went willing or not, but I am not sure if that changes anything else in the story. 

The simplest version is Rhaegar rides off with Lyanna,  gets her pregnant and hides her away in an old tower.  He tells 3 KG to kill anyone who tries to go near her.  Ned goes looking for her and finds her, kills the KG, but Lyanna dies in childbirth. 

Now saying that is the simplest version isn't saying it is correct.   But in that version,  Ned, Robert, Rheagar,  Arys, Brandon, Rickard all do the same thing with the same motives if Lyanna was a happy lover or tortured rape victim.

[Brad Stark]

13 minutes ago, JNR said:

It seems to me we can imagine plausible scenarios in which Ned might fight them whether or not Lyanna was there.  

For instance: Suppose Robert decided to declare them traitors after the Sack.  Suppose he commanded Ned to kill them if he found them at Storm's End.  It's not in the canon, but I can conceive of this.

So Ned leaves Storm's End without finding them there, per the dream, and then encounters them somewhere else.  Does he kill them?  It seems to me he tries, no matter his personal feelings, because that's what Robert commanded him to do.

I don't see Ned blindly following Robert's orders like that.  At very least, it would have cost them their friendship and Ned's dreams would be haunted by Robert's orders.

[Black Crow]

The plain fact of the matter is that however loose or however strict Robert's orders were, the three surviving members of the King's Guard were enemy combatants and unless they surrendered and renounced any allegiance to Viserys Targaryen [as Baristan Selmy and Jaime Lannister did] then they remained enemy combatants and it was Lord Eddard's clear duty to hunt them down.

The fight only happened after they rejected the overture

[Brad Stark]

36 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

The plain fact of the matter is that however loose or however strict Robert's orders were, the three surviving members of the King's Guard were enemy combatants and unless they surrendered and renounced any allegiance to Viserys Targaryen [as Baristan Selmy and Jaime Lannister did] then they remained enemy combatants and it was Lord Eddard's clear duty to hunt them down.

The fight only happened after they rejected the overture

And Eddard could simply besiege the tower as was common in our middle ages.  Why let 5 friends die in a combat he could lose?  A starving Kingsguard might not surrender, but wouldn't fight as well.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

We've debated wether Lyanna went willing or not, but I am not sure if that changes anything else in the story. 

The simplest version is Rhaegar rides off with Lyanna,  gets her pregnant and hides her away in an old tower.  He tells 3 KG to kill anyone who tries to go near her.  Ned goes looking for her and finds her, kills the KG, but Lyanna dies in childbirth. 

Now saying that is the simplest version isn't saying it is correct.   But in that version,  Ned, Robert, Rheagar,  Arys, Brandon, Rickard all do the same thing with the same motives if Lyanna was a happy lover or tortured rape victim.

Since when does GRRM do anything that's simple?   The Baratheon version is that she was kidnapped and raped.  The Targ version is that Rhaegar loved his lady.  I think the third option is that neither is true: she was neither his lover nor raped by him. 

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Since when does GRRM do anything that's simple?   The Baratheon version is that she was kidnapped and raped.  The Targ version is that Rhaegar loved his lady.  I think the third option is that neither is true: she was neither his lover nor raped by him. 

To be fair, Trouserless Bob complained that it was the damn ballad singers who turned it into a love story, but your point remains that presented with two diametrically opposed versions of the story its likely that the truth was neither.

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

To be fair, Trouserless Bob complained that it was the damn ballad singers who turned it into a love story, but your point remains that presented with two diametrically opposed versions of the story its likely that the truth was neither.

Obviously if Lyanna was taken by him, was locked away from the rest of the world for a year and bore his child, she had an opinion one way or the other.  Maybe she thought riding off with Rhaegar was a great idea at first and later regretted it, but otherwise I don't see how the truth could be anything other than a love story or kidnapping/rape.

[Lady Dyanna]

56 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Obviously if Lyanna was taken by him, was locked away from the rest of the world for a year and bore his child, she had an opinion one way or the other.  Maybe she thought riding off with Rhaegar was a great idea at first and later regretted it, but otherwise I don't see how the truth could be anything other than a love story or kidnapping/rape.

Except that by using that logic, Bran and Rickon are long dead, killed by Theon. Arya is still a hidden prisoner of the Lannisters. And Sansa murdered Joffrey and escaped from a tower with her bat wings. NOTHING in this series is ever as straight forward as it seems to be at first glance. It might not be convenient, but what else would we all have to argue about.  

[Brad Stark]

8 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Except that by using that logic, Bran and Rickon are long dead, killed by Theon. Arya is still a hidden prisoner of the Lannisters. And Sansa murdered Joffrey and escaped from a tower with her bat wings. NOTHING in this series is ever as straight forward as it seems to be at first glance. It might not be convenient, but what else would we all have to argue about.  

I am not saying it might not be more complicated.   I am saying there isn't a lot of middle ground between love story and kidnapping/rape.

[Lady Dyanna]

3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I am not saying it might not be more complicated.   I am saying there isn't a lot of middle ground between love story and kidnapping/rape.

There’s friendship and/or mutual respect. It’s entirely possible that there was no type of sexual relationship between the two at all. No love. And no rape. 

I think that the point both Lynn and B.C. were both trying to make was that it is more likely to actually be a more complicated story than what we hear. And I tend to agree with that. Very rarely do we see GRRM take the simple uncomplicated route with anything. I’d be very surprised if things turn out to be exactly how they were laid out. And if they are, what was the point of wrapping them in secrecy and fever dreams? It makes no sense unless there’s a big piece of knowledge missing. 

[Black Crow]

15 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

And Eddard could simply besiege the tower as was common in our middle ages.  Why let 5 friends die in a combat he could lose?  A starving Kingsguard might not surrender, but wouldn't fight as well.

Except that the three guardsmen are not forted up in the tower. They are standing outside it with swords drawn.

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I think that the point both Lynn and B.C. were both trying to make was that it is more likely to actually be a more complicated story than what we hear. And I tend to agree with that. Very rarely do we see GRRM take the simple uncomplicated route with anything. I’d be very surprised if things turn out to be exactly how they were laid out. And if they are, what was the point of wrapping them in secrecy and fever dreams? It makes no sense unless there’s a big piece of knowledge missing. 

Exactly so. The inference that Lyanna died birthing Jon is fair but unproven; the expectation that Rhaegar was the father is a reasonable hypothesis [which I'm prepared to accept] but no more than that; anything else all the way up to King Jon [or "Aemon"] Targaryen the Prince that was Promised, is sheer speculation. Something, well probably quite a lot, is missing and that something could and probably will completely upset a whole load of assumptions.

[Black Crow]

Just as an idle aside, I'm given to understand that there has been a lot of internet criticism of The Last Jedi, not because of any perceived technical or dramatic failings, but because story-arc and characterisations have diverged markedly from those developed as fan theories.

If Winds of Winter or if we live to see it, a Dream of Spring, reveals R+L=J to be untrue, will books be burned and GRRM forced into hiding?

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Just as an idle aside, I'm given to understand that there has been a lot of internet criticism of The Last Jedi, not because of any perceived technical or dramatic failings, but because story-arc and characterisations have diverged markedly from those developed as fan theories.

If Winds of Winter or if we live to see it, a Dream of Spring, reveals R+L=J to be untrue, will books be burned and GRRM forced into hiding?

Geez, I don't know.  I think the majority of people will be thrilled to get the next book regardless of the parentage questions.  It's not the central story anyway.   I have no idea about Star Wars or what the fan fiction says about it.  But I do recall that Star Trek fans were very picky about any new franchise sticking with the established canon.  Peter Jackson was also sticking as closely as possible to the books and explains every deviation in the commentaries.

I love all the new stuff.  Battlestar Gallactica was fantastic until the writer's strike destroyed it's momentum.  Who can complain about the new Star Trek movies?  I remember seeing Star Wars when it came out in the seventies when the new technology was making it's breakthrough and wondering when the technololgy would be advanced enough to do LOTR.  It was absolutely stunning at the time.  Now it advances in leaps and bounds every few years.  Avatar for god's sake!

Martin's ambition is to surprise and delight his audience as well.  Fan fiction is the bane of authors like Martin because it hijacks his work and makes it into something else.  It sets up unreasonable expectations of the author and the internet becomes a cudgel for every grievance large or small.   Can we really complain if D&D had to make it up after a certain point? Of course they had to go with fan fiction because who can really second guess Martin?  I still don't know who Jon's parents will turn out to be regardless of all the speculation.

As far as Martin going into hiding; isn't that the case now?

[LynnS]

8 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

There’s friendship and/or mutual respect. It’s entirely possible that there was no type of sexual relationship between the two at all. No love. And no rape. 

I think that the point both Lynn and B.C. were both trying to make was that it is more likely to actually be a more complicated story than what we hear. And I tend to agree with that. Very rarely do we see GRRM take the simple uncomplicated route with anything. I’d be very surprised if things turn out to be exactly how they were laid out. And if they are, what was the point of wrapping them in secrecy and fever dreams? It makes no sense unless there’s a big piece of knowledge missing. 

Exactly.  We know that Aerys was bent out of shape and he was after destroying the Starks for some reason and I don't think that excludes Lyanna.  There is a lot we don't know about Lyanna's disappearance or who was behind it and why.  Who sent the message to Brandon, what did it say and who sent the message to Hoster Tully and what did it say?  Who sent the message is as important as the message itself.   I suspect Pycelle was involved with the messages and Tyrion accuses him of betraying just about everyone including Rhaegar.  Tywin is not known for letting sentimentality get in the way of his ambition. The knights without honor at Harrenhal have an ongoing association with Tywin.  Lyanna would certainly be in his way as confirmed by Kevan in the epilogue of DwD.  

What did Robert hear and from whom.  I suspect Hoster Tully and all we know is that he thought Brandon was a gallant fool and Catelyn's throat constricted when she heard about Lyanna.    Robert may very well be the source of the kidnapping and rape story.  What a great way to start a war with someone who behaves and thinks like a beserker when enraged.  Trouserless Bob only had one thing on his mind; stoving in Rhaegar's chest. 

Whatever Rhaegar knew or didn't know about the prophecy, it comes from a wood's witch most likely the Ghost of High Heart.  I would expect him to seek her out and trade songs for dreams.  Rhaegar never crowns Lyanna.  He places the crown in her lap.  That's very suggestive that the crown is not meant for her, but the child she will hold in her lap.   The Starks have no crown and this I think is a substitute for the crown of the king of winter.  

It may be that Aerys is not as mad as he appears; at least some of the time.  His obsession with the Starks may have something to do with Rhaegar's gesture and attempt to eliminate the Starks.  An attempt to dominate ice with fire.  He certainly seemed to have been subjected to dreams about waking the dragon or transforming into a dragon.  

Yet, all these questions just can't be answered.  I'm not expecting a straight answer from the next book either but some bits given by various characters.  We still haven't heard Meera's sad story for another time.        

[Black Crow]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

Exactly.  We know that Aerys was bent out of shape and he was after destroying the Starks for some reason and I don't think that excludes Lyanna.  There is a lot we don't know about Lyanna's disappearance or who was behind it and why.  Who sent the message to Brandon, what did it say and who sent the message to Hoster Tully and what did it say?  Who sent the message is as important as the message itself.   I suspect Pycelle was involved with the messages and Tyrion accuses him of betraying just about everyone including Rhaegar.  Tywin is not known for letting sentimentality get in the way of his ambition. The knights without honor at Harrenhal have an ongoing association with Tywin.  Lyanna would certainly be in his way as confirmed by Kevan in the epilogue of DwD.  

What did Robert hear and from whom.  I suspect Hoster Tully and all we know is that he thought Brandon was a gallant fool and Catelyn's throat constricted when she heard about Lyanna.    Robert may very well be the source of the kidnapping and rape story.  What a great way to start a war with someone who behaves and thinks like a beserker when enraged.  Trouserless Bob only had one thing on his mind; stoving in Rhaegar's chest. 

Whatever Rhaegar knew or didn't know about the prophecy, it comes from a wood's witch most likely the Ghost of High Heart.  I would expect him to seek her out and trade songs for dreams.  Rhaegar never crowns Lyanna.  He places the crown in her lap.  That's very suggestive that the crown is not meant for her, but the child she will hold in her lap.   The Starks have no crown and this I think is a substitute for the crown of the king of winter.  

It may be that Aerys is not as mad as he appears; at least some of the time.  His obsession with the Starks may have something to do with Rhaegar's gesture and attempt to eliminate the Starks.  An attempt to dominate ice with fire.  He certainly seemed to have been subjected to dreams about waking the dragon or transforming into a dragon.  

Yet, all these questions just can't be answered.  I'm not expecting a straight answer from the next book either but some bits given by various characters.  We still haven't heard Meera's sad story for another time.        

Yes, as I've said before I wonder whether Aerys was in fact as mad as he has been portrayed. Our own history is full of kings who got a raw deal because they upset the historians or because the historians were working for the other side; the classic case being Richard III. Now I don't know whether he was really a good guy or not, and don't much care to be honest, but I do know that his evil reputation comes from Bill Shakespear and other pro Tudor writers.

Aerys was certainly dangerous to be around, but did he have reason to have it in for the Starks or was he fed that distrust by the Lannisters via Pycelle?