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Heresy 204; of cabbages, prophecies and kings

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6 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

We know the tower was referred to as "The tower of Joy".  A suitable name for a lover's hideaway, but a strange name for a military post.

We also have Ned tearing down the tower, and if I remember right, text supporting bitter feelings and hatred towards the tower itself.  Wyatt Earp didn't tear down the O.K. Corral itself after his gunfight.

 

But what would Rhaegar find “joy” in?  Does Selmy give us a hint?

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And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could nbut feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved.”

Interesting that a place of such tragedy is the place that the prince loved the best.  What was going on at Summerhall?  

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“This talk of a stone dragon … madness, I tell you, sheer madness. Did we learn nothing from Aerion Brightfire, from the nine mages, from the alchemists? Did we learn nothing from Summerhall? No good has ever come from these dreams of dragons,”

Now what does Eddard abhor?  What would cause him to link the tower to blood?  

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“Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory.”

Is it that Lyanna died of childbirth there?  Or is it something else?  What does Ned abhor more than anything else?  What caused a rift between him and Robert?

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“Nonetheless, Ned said, “the murder of children ... it would be vile ... unspeakable ... “

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“Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?”

Now we know Melisandre is hell bent on getting her hands on young Edric Storm, so she can sacrifice him and his kingsblood and wake dragons from stone.

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“The Lord of Light cherishes the innocent.  There is no sacrifice more precious.  From his king’s blood and his untainted fire, a dragon shall be born.”

But of course Melisandre is insane right, rational people like Rhaegar and Aemon would never believe that sacrificing a child, even a child, with “kingsblood” could wake a dragon, right?

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Burning dead children had ceased to trouble Jon Snow; live ones were another matter. Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings. The words had been murmured by one of the queen’s men as Maester Aemon had cleaned his wounds. Jon had tried to dismiss them as his fever talking. Aemon had demurred. “There is power in a king’s blood,” the old maester had warned, “and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this.” The king can be harsh and unforgiving, aye, but a babe still on the breast? Only a monster would give a living child to the flames.

.

Aemon seems to corroborate Melisandre’s belief in the power of king’s blood as a sacrifice.  And who does he mean when he says that better men than Stannis have done worse things than this?

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3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

But what would Rhaegar find “joy” in?  Does Selmy give us a hint?

Interesting that a place of such tragedy is the place that the prince loved the best.  What was going on at Summerhall?  

Now what does Eddard abhor?  What would cause him to link the tower to blood?  

Is it that Lyanna died of childbirth there?  Or is it something else?  What does Ned abhor more than anything else?  What caused a rift between him and Robert?

 

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

“Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory.”

However, given the problems we've long discussed about the love nest theory, not least its location, you may be right in linking it with Summerhall and that if it was indeed named the tower of joy it was because of something else which happened there in the past connected with dragons.

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4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Aemon seems to corroborate Melisandre’s belief in the power of king’s blood as a sacrifice.  And who does he mean when he says that better men than Stannis have done worse things than this?

He's referencing his own relatives, no doubt. It's in the nature of dragons to kill other dragons to consolidate power -- I do believe they refer to it most poetically as a 'dance', or indeed 'song...' Jon was supposed to be 'the song of ice and fire' -- it's the recipe for 'cooking up dragons' Rhaegar was following in his quasi-psychotic obsession with raising the dead. Although I believe Jon is genetically the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, I don't believe in the love story. The clue is in the blue wreath, the 'bitter blooms' or 'false flowers' harboring 'claws', which he (in)famously bestowed upon her marking her for death (the chosen queen of love and beauty is a 'May Queen' image -- that festival historically involved ritual sex followed by murder of the May Queen in order to resurrect the dead season). The 'smiles died' and 'false spring' indeed.  Additionally, there's Rhaegar's reputation of being such a 'sorrowful man' overcome by the gravity of what he 'had to do', a bit like the story of Azor Ahai stabbing his wife with heavy heart, and those other euphemistically named assassins who apologize before killing their victims.

P.S. Another more psychoanalytic frame to consider is GRRM's real-life love triangle in which his lover Lysa Tully... I mean, 'Lisa Tuttle' of course! left him for another man in 1974. From the perspective of the cuckolded (GRRM identifies with Robert Baratheon in the equation), she was 'taken/stolen from him' by Mystery Man X, dragonspawn incarnate :P.  Although GRRM and the others involved take care never to say his name publicly, GRRM has since commented in interviews, referring, not without a certain lingering bitterness, to Lisa finding 'better taste in men' since then.  By association, I do not think Rhaegar the purloiner of girlfriends named 'Lyanna' (pronounced 'LIE-anna') is intended to be 'a good guy' with honorable intentions! This event obviously left a deep impression, given that he can't stop referencing the triangle and obvious permutations of that particular name throughout his novels -- such symbolism abounds, whether consciously or unconsciously. LmL has even given that 'triangular fingerprint' mythological astronomy dimensions, which in my opinion finds its humble origins in the broken heart of our author. 'The human heart in conflict' reverberating throughout the universe is his own.

Edited by ravenous reader

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4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

He's referencing his own relatives, no doubt. It's in the nature of dragons to kill other dragons to consolidate power -- I do believe they refer to it most poetically as a 'dance', or indeed 'song...' Jon was supposed to be 'the song of ice and fire' -- it's the recipe for 'cooking up dragons' Rhaegar was following in his quasi-psychotic obsession with raising the dead. Although I believe Jon is genetically the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, I don't believe in the love story. The clue is in the blue wreath, the 'bitter blooms' or 'false flowers' harboring 'claws', which he (in)famously bestowed upon her marking her for death (the chosen queen of love and beauty is a 'May Queen' image -- that festival historically involved ritual sex followed by murder of the May Queen in order to resurrect the dead season). The 'smiles died' and 'false spring' indeed.  Additionally, there's Rhaegar's reputation of being such a 'sorrowful man' overcome by the gravity of what he 'had to do', a bit like the story of Azor Ahai stabbing his wife with heavy heart, and those other euphemistically named assassins who apologize before killing their victims.

I think that we have to assume that everything Rhaegar was doing was influenced by his belief that either he, or his son, was the prince that was promised.  Aemon equates the prince that was promised as a signal that the “Battle for the Dawn” was about to be fought, in other words that the Long Night was about to happen.  

So I think we have to assume that Rhaegar’s involvement with the Harrenhal was motivated by his belief that the Long Night was coming.  And if you look at the “invitation list”  it makes me believe that Rhaegar may have been interested in those with the blood of the First Men.  

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The storm lord was on hand, and the rose lord as well.

And of course the wolves

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“Under Harren’s Roof he ate and drank with the wolves,...”

Then we have Howland’s arrival, was this pure happenstance, or was Howland called there as a representative for the Green Men?

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“All that winter the crannogman stayed on the isle, but when the spring broke he heard the wide world calling  and knew the time had come to leave.  His skin boat was just where he’d left it, so he said his farewells and paddled off toward shore.  He rowed and rowed, and finally saw the distant towers of a castle rising beside the lake.  The towers reached ever higher as he neared shore, until he realized that this must be the greatest castle in all the world.”

So we have descendants from the Storm Kings and the Gardener Kings and the Kings of Winter.  We have someone who was (i?) an apprentice/servant of the Green Men.  And of course if the tourney was concerned with the coming of the Long Night, we would expect to see the Night’s Watch represented.

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A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night’s Watch.

Then when it came time to make an award of the crown of love and beauty, Rhaegar chose a winter blue crown of roses.  Combining symbols of the flowery crown from the Gardener Kings and the Blue rose of the Winter kings.

Now fast forward to our current story, and Melisandre’s insistence that Edric Storm be sacrificed to give birth to a dragon.  Why Edric Storm?  Is it because Robert was sitting on the Iron Throne at the time he conceived the bastard?  Or is it something more?  Edric the Storm is the son of Robert Baratheon and Delena Florent, and what do we know about both these families?

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You Starks were kings once, the Arryns and the Lannisters as well, and even the Baratheons through the female line, but the Tyrells were no more than stewards until Aegon the Dragon came along and cooked the rightful King of the Read on the Field of Fire.  If truth be told, even our claim to Highgarden is a bit dodgy, just as those dreadful Florents are always whining.

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“Who better ?  We Florents have the blood of the old Gardener kings in our veins.”

So does Melisandre think that Edric is significant because he was the son of the man sitting on the Iron Throne?  Or does he think Edric is significant because his bloodlines can be traced back to the Gardener and Storm kings?

Can Melisandre’s beliefs instruct us on Rhaegar’s motivations?  Now all this sounds well and good, and it does support the idea that Rhaegar may have wanted to intermingle his bloodlines with those of the bloodlines of First Men kings.  But we have this interesting dilemma.

No one ever seems to equate Rhaegar with “lusts”.  In fact, the Targaryen that most associated Rhaegar with was Baelor.

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Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children.  The Maester were awed by his wits, but his father’s knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again.

Yet when Ned thinks of Jon, he thinks of the lusts of men.

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She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him.  Riding through in the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own.  If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully why did they fill men with such lusts?

 

So did Ned completely misread the room?  Or does he know something about Jon’s father, that seems completely at odds of everything we know about Rhaegar.

I think the two most predominate theories concerning Rhaegar and Lyanna deal with either love or duty.  Never lust.  

Of course Robert is always associated with his lusts.  But of course there is another present at the tourney as well, also known for his impetuousness and lustful disposition.

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Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted.  I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden’s blood on his cock the night he claimed me.  I think Brandon liked the sight as well.  A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes.  It hurt but it was a sweet pain. 

“The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though ... there was nothing sweet about that pain.  He never wanted her, I promise you that.  He told me so, on our last night together...”

I’m curious, did Rhaegar’s award of the winter rose crown ( no matter Rhaegar’s true motivations) to Lyanna stir up something in Brandon?  There is an Inn between Riverrun and the crossroads where Brandon may have stayed on his numerous trips to and from Riverrun.  

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At the end of the dock, a flaking shingle swung from an iron post, painted with the likeness of a king upon his knees, his hands pressed together in the gesture of fealty.  

“This is the Inn of the Kneeling Man, mylady.  It stands upon the very spot where the last King in the North knelt before Aegon the Conqueror to offer his submission.  That’s him on the sign, I suppose.”

So Brandon probably routinely sees this sign, which would be a reminder of what the Starks used to be and what they lost.  Now he and his sister are being forced into an arranged marriages for his father’s Southron ambitions.  Then he is present when a dragon prince gives his Stark sister a winter crown.  I wonder if this conflict of the heart could have lead to the lusts that Ned dully thinks of when he pictures Jon and bastards.

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13 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Now fast forward to our current story, and Melisandre’s insistence that Edric Storm be sacrificed to give birth to a dragon.  Why Edric Storm?  Is it because Robert was sitting on the Iron Throne at the time he conceived the bastard?  Or is it something more? 

There is precedent in folklore for the King being special just because he's King.  If Tywin took the throne would Mel want to burn Tyrion?  I don't think so.  I think the Targaryans and Starks are special because of something their ancestors did that effected their descendants.  And by extension,  I think everyone Mel is especially interested in burning is either a Stark or Targaryan.

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16 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

The TOJ scene has been rehashed often on hearesy, often with nothing new.  However the quote that "Aerys would yet sit on the iron throne" does not fit with what Rhaegar wanted and would trust the Kingsguard to know.  This is a new idea, at least to me.

Parallels between the Kingsguard and Bloodriders is also something new, so I hope to see it discussed, but I don't have anything to add.

Good catch! That the Kingsguard said if they had remained in Kings Landing that AERYS would yet sit the throne is significant. It shows them as remaining loyal to the king and not to Rhaegar. Very good catch and I think its significant.

 

12 hours ago, JNR said:

The idea is... that he simply rode up, hopped off his horse, whipped out his sword and got to work? 

Well, we know they died at the TOJ because Ned's waking memory is:

So if they were at any of the earlier events, the following would have to be true:

1) No one noticed or remembered them, at least as mentioned at any time in canon, despite their extremely memorable nature as members of the Kingsguard;

2) All three survived whatever of the four events they participated in;

3) They also had time to beat Ned to the TOJ afterward.

I suppose it's possible that (for instance) Arthur Dayne fought at the Trident and yet there's been no reference to that, or that Oswell Whent fled with Viserys to Dragonstone and yet got to the TOJ before Ned... but it doesn't seem likely to me.

Also, Ned was personally present at the Trident and Storm's End,  and it really seems like if any of them were there, he would remember it.

Not so fast. Ned's waking memory is seven against three, but he never once confirms during his waking memories that those three were Kingsguard. I still cling to the opinion that the three men at the tower of joy were just ordinary men guarding the pass.

 

5 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

He's referencing his own relatives, no doubt. It's in the nature of dragons to kill other dragons to consolidate power -- I do believe they refer to it most poetically as a 'dance', or indeed 'song...' Jon was supposed to be 'the song of ice and fire' -- it's the recipe for 'cooking up dragons' Rhaegar was following in his quasi-psychotic obsession with raising the dead. Although I believe Jon is genetically the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, I don't believe in the love story. The clue is in the blue wreath, the 'bitter blooms' or 'false flowers' harboring 'claws', which he (in)famously bestowed upon her marking her for death (the chosen queen of love and beauty is a 'May Queen' image -- that festival historically involved ritual sex followed by murder of the May Queen in order to resurrect the dead season). The 'smiles died' and 'false spring' indeed.  Additionally, there's Rhaegar's reputation of being such a 'sorrowful man' overcome by the gravity of what he 'had to do', a bit like the story of Azor Ahai stabbing his wife with heavy heart, and those other euphemistically named assassins who apologize before killing their victims.

P.S. Another more psychoanalytic frame to consider is GRRM's real-life love triangle in which his lover Lysa Tully... I mean, 'Lisa Tuttle' of course! left him for another man in 1974. From the perspective of the cuckolded (GRRM identifies with Robert Baratheon in the equation), she was 'taken/stolen from him' by Mystery Man X, dragonspawn incarnate :P.  Although GRRM and the others involved take care never to say his name publicly, GRRM has since commented in interviews, referring, not without a certain lingering bitterness, to Lisa finding 'better taste in men' since then.  By association, I do not think Rhaegar the purloiner of girlfriends named 'Lyanna' (pronounced 'LIE-anna') is intended to be 'a good guy' with honorable intentions! This event obviously left a deep impression, given that he can't stop referencing the triangle and obvious permutations of that particular name throughout his novels -- such symbolism abounds, whether consciously or unconsciously. LmL has even given that 'triangular fingerprint' mythological astronomy dimensions, which in my opinion finds its humble origins in the broken heart of our author. 'The human heart in conflict' reverberating throughout the universe is his own.

I've read GRRMs account of Lisa on his website, but I hadn't connected his own lost love to the story. Makes sense! And I love the LIE-anna pronunciation! I was reading it as Lee-anna, but I like your version more! lol

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

So Brandon probably routinely sees this sign, which would be a reminder of what the Starks used to be and what they lost.  Now he and his sister are being forced into an arranged marriages for his father’s Southron ambitions.  Then he is present when a dragon prince gives his Stark sister a winter crown.  I wonder if this conflict of the heart could have lead to the lusts that Ned dully thinks of when he pictures Jon and bastards.

The Lady lost her wolf.

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A Game of Thrones - Bran VI

Bran felt all cold inside. "She lost her wolf," he said, weakly, remembering the day when four of his father's guardsmen had returned from the south with Lady's bones. Summer and Grey Wind and Shaggydog had begun to howl before they crossed the drawbridge, in voices drawn and desolate. Beneath the shadow of the First Keep was an ancient lichyard, its headstones spotted with pale lichen, where the old Kings of Winter had laid their faithful servants. It was there they buried Lady, while her brothers stalked between the graves like restless shadows. She had gone south, and only her bones had returned.

 

OF course this is about Arya; but it's Bran talking and it could be one of those "out of the mouths of children" statements.  Lyanna is buried beneath the First Keep, a tower long fallen, a broken tower. She's buried with her father and brother so I get Ned's connection to the Tower Oh Joy in his dreams. Ned buries Aery's/Rhaegar's faithful servants in a lichyard beneath a broken tower.
I do think the mothers of ice and fire were present at Harrentahl  and it's Howland who points them out: Ashera and Lyanna.  I also think the fathers are present.  I associate lust, brothels and bastards with Robert and the PwiP with Rhaegar.  But I think Howland's interest is primarily Ned; who must live so Bran can be born.
I think the green men are primarily interested in the balance between ice and fire and this is where the strange pledge of the crannogmen comes into play.  The tourney takes place during the False Spring, the first indication that the seasons are becoming out of balance.  
Edited by LynnS

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Ned's waking memory is seven against three, but he never once confirms during his waking memories that those three were Kingsguard.

Here is the dream account:

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In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory’s father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon’s squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man’s memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life.

 

And then here is Ned's waking memory:

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Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. 

I think it's clear this is the same fight, involving the same people -- as Ned says, in the dream as it had been in life.

Otherwise, Ned had the dream and then woke up and thought about a completely different fight.  A different fight that like the dream fight, also involved himself and Martyn Cassel and Howland, that was also seven against three... vanishingly low odds of that.

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

That the Kingsguard said if they had remained in Kings Landing that AERYS would yet sit the throne is significant. It shows them as remaining loyal to the king and not to Rhaegar. Very good catch and I think its significant.

Thanks!  

On 1/26/2018 at 0:21 PM, JNR said:

Why would Aerys yet sit the Iron Throne if these three men had been in King's Landing?

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3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

That the Kingsguard said if they had remained in Kings Landing that AERYS would yet sit the throne is significant. It shows them as remaining loyal to the king and not to Rhaegar. Very good catch and I think its significant.

I'm not sure that it opens many possibilities as to what they may or may not have done had they been at King's Landing, but it does put the knockers on the claim that the orders they were obeying came from Rhaegar. Sure they are bound to obey orders given by lesser members of the royal family, but no order by Rhaegar can override Aerys' orders

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3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Good catch! That the Kingsguard said if they had remained in Kings Landing that AERYS would yet sit the throne is significant. It shows them as remaining loyal to the king and not to Rhaegar. Very good catch and I think its significant.

If Rheagar survived, he would have called a Great Council and Arys would not sit on the throne.  The 3 KG at the tower of Joy were there on Rhaegar's orders, not Arys's, they were loyal to Rhaegar, his closest friends and most trusted companions.  Ned didn't ask them if they were loyal to Arys, they volunteered that information.  If this conversation actually took place,  it goes against everything else we know.  It is extremely significant,  especially if I am wrong saying Ned just imagined it. 

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1 hour ago, JNR said:

Here is the dream account:

And then here is Ned's waking memory:

I think it's clear this is the same fight, involving the same people -- as Ned says, in the dream as it had been in life.

Otherwise, Ned had the dream and then woke up and thought about a completely different fight.  A different fight that like the dream fight, also involved himself and Martyn Cassel and Howland, that was also seven against three... vanishingly low odds of that.

Ned sees his men in the dream as wraiths, yet the three Kingsguard (in the dream) are not. This may be significant. If the Kingsguard perished as well as his men, why doesn't he see them as wraiths too? 

Ned compares the dream to real life twice, but when he gets to the three men at the tower of joy he says "yet" - yet, these were no ordinary men - meaning that in real life, they were ordinary.

I was hoping we'd stay away from the fever dream passage, but here we go again!

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11 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

He's referencing his own relatives, no doubt. It's in the nature of dragons to kill other dragons to consolidate power -- I do believe they refer to it most poetically as a 'dance', or indeed 'song...' Jon was supposed to be 'the song of ice and fire' -- it's the recipe for 'cooking up dragons' Rhaegar was following in his quasi-psychotic obsession with raising the dead. Although I believe Jon is genetically the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, I don't believe in the love story. The clue is in the blue wreath, the 'bitter blooms' or 'false flowers' harboring 'claws', which he (in)famously bestowed upon her marking her for death (the chosen queen of love and beauty is a 'May Queen' image -- that festival historically involved ritual sex followed by murder of the May Queen in order to resurrect the dead season). The 'smiles died' and 'false spring' indeed.  Additionally, there's Rhaegar's reputation of being such a 'sorrowful man' overcome by the gravity of what he 'had to do', a bit like the story of Azor Ahai stabbing his wife with heavy heart, and those other euphemistically named assassins who apologize before killing their victims.

Yes, I can go with this because on the one hand Rhaegar always seems like a man on a mission, while on the other there's no evidence beyond wishful thinking that Lyanna was in love with him either

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11 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Another more psychoanalytic frame to consider is GRRM's real-life love triangle in which his lover Lysa Tully... I mean, 'Lisa Tuttle' of course! left him for another man in 1974. From the perspective of the cuckolded (GRRM identifies with Robert Baratheon in the equation), she was 'taken/stolen from him' by Mystery Man X, dragonspawn incarnate :P.  Although GRRM and the others involved take care never to say his name publicly, GRRM has since commented in interviews, referring, not without a certain lingering bitterness, to Lisa finding 'better taste in men' since then.  By association, I do not think Rhaegar the purloiner of girlfriends named 'Lyanna' (pronounced 'LIE-anna') is intended to be 'a good guy' with honorable intentions! This event obviously left a deep impression, given that he can't stop referencing the triangle and obvious permutations of that particular name throughout his novels -- such symbolism abounds, whether consciously or unconsciously. LmL has even given that 'triangular fingerprint' mythological astronomy dimensions, which in my opinion finds its humble origins in the broken heart of our author. 'The human heart in conflict' reverberating throughout the universe is his own.

Oh very nice. I wasn't aware of this and it not only makes perfect sense but fits the story as its being told far better than a cheesy romance

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2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Ned sees his men in the dream as wraiths, yet the three Kingsguard (in the dream) are not. This may be significant. If the Kingsguard perished as well as his men, why doesn't he see them as wraiths too? 

Just a guess, but I would guess because Ned wasn't facing his own men; he wasn't thinking about or talking to his own men.  They weren't the object of his attention.

He was focused on the Kingsguard and what they were saying, because he understood too well how bad things could easily get.  

This is why later, he says "Now it begins" -- he had seen the fight coming.

We also have, of course, Ned's direct statement to Bran:

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The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed.

So Ned did on some occasion at least fight one KG and Howland was also there.

Clearly, this doesn't mention the TOJ.  However, we also have from AGOT:

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Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. 

All this clearly establishes that Ned fought Dayne on some occasion in real life (not a dream)... it was a fight to the death... Howland was also there... and later, Ned took Dawn to Starfall, and that in turn means it was after the Rebellion was over.  Ned couldn't have done this before the Sack because Dorne was loyal to the Targs.

This is a coherent, consistent tale.  However, as you say, there are still blanks, so we'll have to wait until TWOW to know with 100% certainty what really happened (and God willing, no later than TWOW).

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5 minutes ago, JNR said:

Just a guess, but I would guess because Ned wasn't facing his own men; he wasn't thinking about or talking to his own men.  They weren't the object of his attention.

He was focused on the Kingsguard and what they were saying, because he understood too well how bad things could easily get.  

This is why later, he says "Now it begins" -- he had seen the fight coming.

We also have, of course, Ned's direct statement to Bran:

So Ned did on some occasion at least fight one KG and Howland was also there.

Clearly, this doesn't mention the TOJ.  However, we also have from AGOT:

All this clearly establishes that Ned fought Dayne on some occasion in real life (not a dream)... it was a fight to the death... Howland was also there... and later, Ned took Dawn to Starfall, and that in turn means it was after the Rebellion was over.  Ned couldn't have done this before the Sack because Dorne was loyal to the Targs.

This is a coherent, consistent tale.  However, as you say, there are still blanks, so we'll have to wait until TWOW to know with 100% certainty what really happened (and God willing, no later than TWOW).

Well I do have a theory about how Ned got Arthur's sword and it's a parallel inversion to Arya and Sandor's trip through the Riverlands and it's final near Saltpans. Ned was only bringing Dawn back to Starfall, was attacked at the tower of joy by some holdouts, was taken by surprise and his men were killed. The cairns were needed for his men, but I'm not sure he actually pulled the tower down or if it fell down long ago, but he also needed a cover story for Jon AND a cover story for a missing Arthur Dayne, thus the whispering at Winterfell.

Did Sandor actually die? Many readers suspect he's the gravedigger the old Septon referred to. The same can be wondered about Ser Dayne. Arthur was a great defender of the common people, and I wonder if he's still alive and in cognito living among the people? The physical description of Lem Lemoncloak sounds more like Gerold Dayne than Arthur, but isn't it within the realm of possibility that the three Kingsguard aren't dead? Well, maybe Oswell is dead since two of Dany's blood riders killed one of Drogo's, and maybe Arthur is a Septon or the actual gravedigger, and Sandor really is dead. It's all speculation of course, because I can't prove it, but I think it makes for a more interesting story than RLJ.

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5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Good catch! That the Kingsguard said if they had remained in Kings Landing that AERYS would yet sit the throne is significant. It shows them as remaining loyal to the king and not to Rhaegar. Very good catch and I think its significant.

 

No, I don't think that is correct.  Remember, all of this conversation comes from 1) a dream, 2) which we are told by GRRM is a fever dream, and 3) which GRRM tells us we should NOT take literally.  The only way to lend complete credence to this conversation is to take the dream literally (i.e. that the conversation actually took place).

So, if the conversation didn't really happen, what can we take from it?  To preface, i'm not going to be stating anything new or groundbreaking.  I think we are supposed to learn that these 3 KG were not at the trident, were absent from KL during the sack, were not at Storms End when Ned ended the siege, and they didn't flee to Dragonstone with the queen and Viserys.  All of these were surprises to Ned because he did expect to see them at one or more of those places and was surprised to find them at the TOJ. 

Another thing to remember, we readers know more than Ned did.  We are privy to the conversation betwee Jaime and Rhaegar where Rhaegar tells Jaime that he intends to make chnages when he returns from the trident.  We are privy to the rumors that Rhaegar was trying to hold a council at the tourney of harrenhaal and that it was scuttled because of Aerys' surprise attendance. We are privy to Barristan's insights that Rhaegar trusted Arthur Dayne more than Barristan.  

Because when Ned arrives at the TOJ Ned does not know what we know, I think the dream conversation shows what Ned ASSUMES; i.e.that the KG would be loyal to the King (Aerys) and that they would have been figthing at the trident or KL or Storms End for the King or would have gone to Dragonstone to protect Viserys.  

Again, none of this is new, I know.  But the whole TOJ dream, I believe, is a set of elabrate clues to show that the KG were at tbe TOJ protecting something important.  What were they protecting?  I believe its Rhaegar's heir.  Who is that?  The obvious answer is Jon Snow, but I think R+L=J is too simple. I want the answer to be something different!!!!

 

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You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

Also, did the Kingsguards know what was in the Tower?

Certainly.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Concerning_the_Tower_of_Joy

So the KG were at the ToJ but we haven't heard the complete story.

Edited by LynnS

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31 minutes ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

No, I don't think that is correct.  Remember, all of this conversation comes from 1) a dream, 2) which we are told by GRRM is a fever dream, and 3) which GRRM tells us we should NOT take literally.  The only way to lend complete credence to this conversation is to take the dream literally (i.e. that the conversation actually took place).

So, if the conversation didn't really happen, what can we take from it?  To preface, i'm not going to be stating anything new or groundbreaking.  I think we are supposed to learn that these 3 KG were not at the trident, were absent from KL during the sack, were not at Storms End when Ned ended the siege, and they didn't flee to Dragonstone with the queen and Viserys.  All of these were surprises to Ned because he did expect to see them at one or more of those places and was surprised to find them at the TOJ. 

Another thing to remember, we readers know more than Ned did.  We are privy to the conversation betwee Jaime and Rhaegar where Rhaegar tells Jaime that he intends to make chnages when he returns from the trident.  We are privy to the rumors that Rhaegar was trying to hold a council at the tourney of harrenhaal and that it was scuttled because of Aerys' surprise attendance. We are privy to Barristan's insights that Rhaegar trusted Arthur Dayne more than Barristan.  

Because when Ned arrives at the TOJ Ned does not know what we know, I think the dream conversation shows what Ned ASSUMES; i.e.that the KG would be loyal to the King (Aerys) and that they would have been figthing at the trident or KL or Storms End for the King or would have gone to Dragonstone to protect Viserys.  

Again, none of this is new, I know.  But the whole TOJ dream, I believe, is a set of elabrate clues to show that the KG were at tbe TOJ protecting something important.  What were they protecting?  I believe its Rhaegar's heir.  Who is that?  The obvious answer is Jon Snow, but I think R+L=J is too simple. I want the answer to be something different!!!!

 

Pardon me my young man, and excuse the goddam shit out of my fucking French! You are right about it being a fever dream! I've only been reminding JNR of this same fact on my posts today and yesterday, and then I go and support a detail out of it! MY BAD!

We also cannot cherry pick the passage for things we want to be true or not, so I cannot go along with the rest of what you're saying about the whereabouts of the Kingsguard. 

Edited by Feather Crystal

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