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Beardy the Wildling

What was the best unintentional lesson learned from Game of Thrones?

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5 hours ago, Rhollo said:

Gendry: If a powerful person wants you dead, hide as close to that person as possible by continuing to practice the only profession you are known for in public.

That was literally his idea the way he explained it in the dialogue - that no one would be looking for him in such an absurd proximity.

Of course the moment whoever's looking for you has the hunch that you might've tried to pull something like that, it stops being a promising strategy.

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5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Jon Snow: To get the hot chick, ignore her attempts to rescue you and keep fighting. Action heroes don't give in to hypothermia and some undead redshirt will come along and save you.

"Hero in a story: to survive, do something heroic that's likely to get you into a near death situation, and you'll be rescued from it by a previous set up plot device."

Also wrong use of the term "redshirt" - redshirt isn't just anyone who dies.

5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Benjen Stark: That horse carried three people away from an army of wights last season. Remembering the details before you spout out a heroic line is important.

Night King: Keep hundreds of feet of huge chains with you at all times. Never know when this will come in handy.

Ironically, that's the same thing DragonDemands said: that they've spent these hundreds of years or whatever collecting all kinds of tools for various occasions and it's something that makes sense.

More of an intentional lesson really.

5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Cersei Lannister: Don't let little things like being engaged to your one ally keep you from getting pregnant with your illicit lover's child and announcing it to the world. He wants you so bad, he won't care. Alternatively, lie about being pregnant to keep your man close to you.

Daenerys Targaryen: As long as you have an advisor will tells you "maybe you shouldn't do evil things if you don't want people to think you're evil" you're golden. You don't actually have to listen to them, people will still love you anyways as long as you're the hot, femininely empowered heroine.

She didn't attack KL with her dragons, how people would've reacted to her if she had isn't really known - then again how they reacted to her not doing that isn't known either; but probably better than otherwise.

And agreeing not to execute all the Slaver Masters after Jorah's advice ended up working not so well - but that can happen though, mercy for your enemies can always backfire. Roose knew.

5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Petyr Baelish: Loving women will get you killed for no reason.

Lol that's not what happened wtf

5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Tormund Giantsbane: Being efficient with your scarce resources in the wild overrules the morality of implied rape.

I think the implied thing was consensual.

5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Davos Seaworth: Find a powerful boss and attach yourself to him. It will take you far in the world.

wow

5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Jaime Lannister: You can kill a child, lose a hand, fuck your sister, as long as you're good looking everyone will love you.

The people who didn't love Cersei+Jaime+Gregor got blown up; the lesser nobility, population, army etc., not quite clear what they think - either they're just cool with Cersei again because the calamities are over and they've got a short term memory, or they're afraid of more wildfire and decided might as well stop hating her I've no idea

Don't think the Bran thing got public.

 

 

5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Arya Stark: No one will care if you butcher people up and serve them in pies

They were poisoned by their enemies - don't think the pie thing got out, it was obviously secret until the mass poisoning scene, and afterwards I doubt Arya stayed around and described the earlier Walder murder to anyone.

5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

if they're jerks.

Don't think the Freys were popular, esp. judging by that farmer's account - people did hate them for the hospitality thing.

However, not enough opinions from various parties were shown, in fact none at all I think.


However the Freys weren't that important (outside their region) either way - Jaime's vassals and he didn't respect them and concluded they were useless.

5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Or poison an entire family when there's no way to know if they were involved or not.

"Kill an entire evil enemy group out of which some individuals might be innocent, while being a traumatized cynical character in a regressive society that's torn by war, and your friends probably won't judge you."

5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

But hey insultingly spare the wife. They'll even think you're nice after that.

I know people on this forum are intensely upset at her not killing the Frey women, but who in-universe do you think is supposed to be insulted by this / think she's less nice because of it?

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51 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

-snip-

You could literally count the number of episodes Benjen was in on one hand. And his sole purpose in showing up in his final episode was to die to demonstrate how badass the wights were. As mentioned, he could've saved Jon and gotten away the same way he saved Meera and Bran and got away.

Most of my comments were pointed at audience perceptions as opposed to in world perceptions. Perhaps that's where many of your issues are stemming from.

Dany has a whole list of questionable decisions. There are plenty of threads dedicated to that. Sometimes she listens to her advisors, sometimes she doesn't, but her first reaction is almost always to do something terrible.

Littlefinger was in Winterfell for Sansa. Nothing he did in season 6 or 7 advanced his agenda to gain power in the seven kingdoms. He was trying to get into Sansa's pants. Staying in the Vale and jumping in once it was nearly over would've been the smart move.

The look in Gendry's face didn't appear like consent was in the cards.

I like Davos, but Sansa had a point that he was awfully damn quick to attach himself to Jon once Sansa was gone. Really the question of why was never answered.

Arya, did something pretty awful. If she had just cut Walder's throat that would've been that, but the Freypie bit goes too far. (Yes, I'm critical of Manderly in the books) Yet because it was the Freys everyone cheered her.

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15 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

You could literally count the number of episodes Benjen was in on one hand. And his sole purpose in showing up in his final episode was to die to demonstrate how badass the wights were. As mentioned, he could've saved Jon and gotten away the same way he saved Meera and Bran and got away.

A redshirt is a secondary or mostly tertiary team member who gets killed by the threat - so the 2+ guys who die there, are redshirts;
Thoros is a distant relative of a redshirt (more of a Tasha Yar really), except he's pretty much a main character - and also it results in Beric losing his rez, so that's also another trope at play.
 

Benjenhands is a different animal altogether - he's the guardian angel archetype (not really how it's called anywhere but it gets the idea across eh), as also seen in Jacob's Ladder or the 9th Gate, a mysterious helper who sometimes shows up and saves the hero from a threat or helps them along.

The fact that he had (too) little screentime is irrelevant, even without the fact that he had a noticeable off-screen presence the whole time.

And it's a self-sacrifice, and nothing to show "how dangerous the wights are" - you could also compare it to when that number 2 guy walks into the fire in Riddick, also a pointless sacrifice lmao
 

15 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Most of my comments were pointed at audience perceptions as opposed to in world perceptions. Perhaps that's where many of your issues are stemming from.

Oh, I thought this was simply about stuff that happened in the show; I know some people on here have a perception of the show that doesn't match reality though :D

15 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Dany has a whole list of questionable decisions. There are plenty of threads dedicated to that. Sometimes she listens to her advisors, sometimes she doesn't, but her first reaction is almost always to do something terrible.

I think that's her official character traits and most prominent flaw (not a show invention either); as far the consequences for going with either approach, I don't think there's been a consistent picture so far.

Would the Sons of the Harpy have been such an issue if she hadn't crucified a bunch of innocent masters? Who knows, don't think it was addressed - would've been called if that had been a major factor.

15 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Littlefinger was in Winterfell for Sansa. Nothing he did in season 6 or 7 advanced his agenda to gain power in the seven kingdoms. He was trying to get into Sansa's pants. Staying in the Vale and jumping in once it was nearly over would've been the smart move.

Uh did you miss the way he was all Iagoing her into distrusting and executing Arya and that's what ended up backfiring?

And, yes sure, I guess lusting after the traumatized daughter who you put in half the traumatic harm's way (and whose father you betrayed) isn't the safest move either, particularly in a heated situation like this. Pretty obvious lesson, although it only got him a couple harmless chokes in this instance.

15 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

The look in Gendry's face didn't appear like consent was in the cards.

It was more of a "wait I'm supposed to be their fuckboy here?! I'm.. I.. I have to go now wtf".

15 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I like Davos, but Sansa had a point that he was awfully damn quick to attach himself to Jon once Sansa was gone. Really the question of why was never answered.

You mean once Stannis was gone? Yeah I forgot which scenes that was where they got closer, might have to rewatch.

15 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Arya, did something pretty awful. If she had just cut Walder's throat that would've been that, but the Freypie bit goes too far. (Yes, I'm critical of Manderly in the books) Yet because it was the Freys everyone cheered her.

I'm not sure what's so bad about it, both those sons were gulity as well.

Now with those 50 people that got poisoned later, eh maybe not all of them partook who knows



And unless contradicted somewhere else I really don't think anyone's mourning for the Freys, sorry.

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On 1/25/2018 at 9:35 PM, Beardy the Wildling said:

Lyanna Mormont: Socks and food aren't necessary in wartime, and such provisions serve only to undermine women, rather than actually being necessary for warfare.

What did she said?

She's not wearing socks?

When did she said that?

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On 22.2.2018. at 9:13 PM, martianmister said:

What did she said?

She's not wearing socks?

When did she said that?

She despises sewing and finds it unnecessary. Ergo, no socks, as they don't grow on trees.

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On 31.1.2018. at 11:30 PM, Pink Fat Rast said:

 

I'm not sure what's so bad about it, both those sons were gulity as well.

Now with those 50 people that got poisoned later, eh maybe not all of them partook who knows



And unless contradicted somewhere else I really don't think anyone's mourning for the Freys, sorry.

Err, I'm pretty sure there are people mourning at least some of the Freys - such as their relatives, wives, friends etc.

Not to mention (warning: I'm about to say something suuuuper controversial here..Wait for it...Prepare...) - murder is a bad thing.

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On 31/01/2018 at 9:44 PM, Lord Lannister said:

Most of my comments were pointed at audience perceptions as opposed to in world perceptions. Perhaps that's where many of your issues are stemming from.

Oh God, I'm back, I was away for a while, didn't realise how much this blew up.

But yeah, I think this is where Pink Fat Rast is tripping up, it's not necessarily a pisstake of in-universe reactions (though they are often ridiculous) but also how D&D obviously want their bar-going, seal-clapping audiences to act.

On 24/02/2018 at 11:27 PM, Pink Fat Rast said:

Heh - an interesting notion, which IIIIIIIIII, do not shaaaaaaaare

Interesting, because honestly, I can't help you in that case. You'll never get the gripes sane people have with the show XD

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

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On 22/02/2018 at 8:13 PM, martianmister said:

What did she said?

She's not wearing socks?

When did she said that?

As Lord Lannister said, she disparages women sewing, and wants all of them to fight. She doesn't want men and women to be both fighting and sewing, she just plain thinks sewing isn't necessary. In winter. During a war against the cold itself.

Because feminism!

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On 27/01/2018 at 3:09 AM, Pink Fat Rast said:

this material deserves a more nuanced and reasonable approach, both in terms of plot analysis and moral questions.

Any show that portrays 'You want a good girl, but you need a bad pussy' as a sexy line doesn't deserve to be treated as if it's worthy of higher consideration. It's much more parsimonious to call a spade a spade and see a bad show for what it is, rather than be a Christian Apologist over it.

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12 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Any show that portrays 'You want a good girl, but you need a bad pussy' as a sexy line doesn't deserve to be treated as if it's worthy of higher consideration.

it is a sexy line, but it's unfittingly cheesy and feels off in context - I did a great breakdown of everything that's wrong with it right here:

12 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

It's much more parsimonious to call a spade a spade and see a bad show for what it is, rather than be a Christian Apologist over it.

To a fringe Jesus Mythicist who thinks the Bible was invented by some pope in the 4th century, the entire historical establishment and most of the atheist community are fundamentalist Christian Apologists.

Crazy right?

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2 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

But yeah, I think this is where Pink Fat Rast is tripping up, it's not necessarily a pisstake of in-universe reactions (though they are often ridiculous) but also how D&D obviously want their bar-going, seal-clapping audiences to act.

Thing is I don't care much about "audience pereceptions" or whatever it's supposed to be - if you wanna talk about "audience perceptions" then go ahead;

but if you want to make claim about the show, and then when proven wrong go "oh but that's how audiences perceived it so I'm still right" then I'm afraid someone else is tripping up here, and, well, it's someone else.

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20 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

Thing is I don't care much about "audience pereceptions" or whatever it's supposed to be - if you wanna talk about "audience perceptions" then go ahead;

but if you want to make claim about the show, and then when proven wrong go "oh but that's how audiences perceived it so I'm still right" then I'm afraid someone else is tripping up here, and, well, it's someone else.

Dude, this thread was explicitly about out-of-universe 'lessons' D&D are giving, intentionally and unintentionally. Nowt revisionist has occurred, it's literally all been about how audiences react to characters. Like how Arya is a complete psychopathic asshole, but D&D depict her as 'heroic' and 'cool', and a typical show-watcher goes 'WOW, ARYA IS SO AWESOME, THREATENING TO SLICE SANSA'S FACE OFF AND KILLING ALL THE FREYS AS FILCH!'

Thus, the unintentional lesson is that to be strong, empowered and cool as a woman, you can't be feminine (like lame old Sansa, who the audiences are supposed to doubt the loyalty of), but instead you have to hate femininity (like Brienna and Lyanna Mormont) and kill lots of people (like Arya and Brienne)

PS: Neither me, nor the person I quoted said 'pereceptions'?

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

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22 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Dude, this thread was explicitly about out-of-universe 'lessons' D&D are giving, intentionally and unintentionally.

If your satire premise about "unintentional lessons drawn from the show" don't actually have to be "drawn from the show", then your satire doesn't work as criticisms of the show and I have no interest in this thread.

Obviously I'm doubting that though.

Quote

Nowt revisionist has occurred, it's literally all been about how audiences react to characters. Like how Arya is a complete psychopathic asshole,

No she's not - still plenty of good character traits.

There's plenty worse than her, as the saying goes.

Quote

but D&D depict her as 'heroic' and 'cool',

Part time.

Quote

and a typical show-watcher goes 'WOW, ARYA IS SO AWESOME, THREATENING TO SLICE SANSA'S FACE OFF AND KILLING ALL THE FREYS AS FILCH!'

The Sansa threat was a fake-out and based on zealous family loyalty (to the extent it was serious to begin with), and most of those Freys if not all partook in the RW - killing a few innocents in a group full of scumbags isn't that bad by GoT standards, and it's been criticized by characters before when Daenerys did it to the slavers.

How many people go around yelling how DON'T YOU SEE KALEY C IS PORTRAYED AS THIS ELF LIKE FEMINIST MORAL PARAGAON AND LOOK WHAT SHE'S DOING!!1" even though the show clearly hasn't portrayed those actions of her as morally right?
Are you one of them by any chance?



And last time I've checked, some people on here (it happened while you were away, but they were all from your camp) complained about her only killing the men and sparing the women - even though the women were almost certainly innocent, based on everything that's been shown.

So, you people over there, make up your minds you know.

 

Quote

Thus, the unintentional lesson is that to be strong, empowered and cool as a woman, you can't be feminine (like lame old Sansa, who the audiences are supposed to doubt the loyalty of),

No, you're not - Arya is portrayed as being in the wrong in that scene, as she has been many times before.

At the VERY LEAST a balanced image is being presented - this whole "show is saying Arya is supercool heroic and Sansa is lame" nonsense only exists inside your head, and you've already been evidence to the contrary;
so clearly something you want to believe really bad.

 

Quote

but instead you have to hate femininity (like Brienna and Lyanna Mormont) and kill lots of people (like Arya and Brienne)

No you're not - Brienne doesn't hate feminity (has a dissonant attitude towards it at worst), and Brienne/Arya have feminine counterexamples in Ygritte, Karsi, Margaery, and even the Sands, various others.
Sansa is portrayed in a bad light, I repeat, ONLY INSIDE YOUR HEAD.


I've already made all these exact points to @Annara Snow - and guess what, stops posting for a while and then comes back completely oblivious, claiming some kind of victory.
Just like you will now.

How do I know this? Well couple weeks ago, you made all these over the top points about HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT ARYA IS WRITTEN AS A DEEP PHILOSOPHICAL MOUTHPIECE WITH PHRASES LIKE NOTHING IS NOTHING??, I debunked them, you didn't respond and now you're back claiming the same horse****e as if nothing happened.

Edited by Pink Fat Rast

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2 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

Sansa is portrayed in a bad light, I repeat, ONLY INSIDE YOUR HEAD.

You haven't watched the 'Inside the Episode' things, have you?

D&D, regarding Sansa's rape, outright said 'Sansa hasn't developed into a person with integrity, who can fight for what's right, yet. She needs to go through something that forces that. Arya, though, she's already there.'

As early as Season 5, it's been evident which ones D&D want the audience to view as the 'superior' sister. Admittedly, I went quiet because I couldn't be arsed with knowing all of the replies were going to be you, talking about how it's wrong to criticise Twin Emperors Vel'Benioff and Vel'Weiss, but I don't really see this as 'victory' or otherwise.

You're just a hard-headed, angry person who hates his favourite show being criticised. There's nothing victorious about disagreeing with you, it just is what it is.

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1 hour ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

You haven't watched the 'Inside the Episode' things, have you?

D&D, regarding Sansa's rape, outright said 'Sansa hasn't developed into a person with integrity, who can fight for what's right, yet. She needs to go through something that forces that. Arya, though, she's already there.'

We were talking about their S7 encounters - the rape was from S5.

You've completely jumped subjects now, maybe because you have more of a point about whatever nonsense they said about S5.

1 hour ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

As early as Season 5, it's been evident which ones D&D want the audience to view as the 'superior' sister.

Not as early as S1E2?

1 hour ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Admittedly, I went quiet because I couldn't be arsed with knowing all of the replies were going to be you, talking about how it's wrong to criticise Twin Emperors Vel'Benioff and Vel'Weiss, but I don't really see this as 'victory' or otherwise.

I said you should criticize them accurately and coherently, and not by talking nonsense and keep talking the same nonsense after being corrected at least twice.

1 hour ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

You're just a hard-headed, angry person who hates his favourite show being criticised. There's nothing victorious about disagreeing with you, it just is what it is.

I told you - twice. I value correct criticisms over wrong ones, and a lot of what tends to be said on Rock&Rawll, threads like this one, Gotgifsmusings or Dragondemands videos is bafflingly wrong.

Third time I'm telling you now, but next post you'll still be claiming I "reject any criticism". 
Do you think that kind of behavior diminishes your credibility or enhances it lmao

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19 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

We were talking about their S7 encounters - the rape was from S5.

You've completely jumped subjects now, maybe because you have more of a point about whatever nonsense they said about S5.

My point was that Sansa has always been the sister we're supposed to suspect, we're supposed to consider untrustworthy and not as 'there' as Arya. But eh, that's what I took from it. D&D don't look so bad when just the show is taken into account, it just comes off as kinda stupid most of the time.

The Inside the Episode segments are the icing on the cake that show what idiotic paradigms they work within.

Such gems like:

'Ramsay's a lot more admirable than Joffrey... like, he fights...'

'Euron's gonna make Ramsay look like a puppy' (implying it's just an edginess contest rather than actually writing compelling villains)

'Needle is... an instrument of revenge, it represents what she's going to use to... to get revenge on everyone who's wronged her family...'

'Creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen...'

You get the overall idea that they don't really... get people, nor literary themes, nor anything. Hence why they expect their audience to take away nonsensical 'deeper meanings' from their show, and how it's easy to twist their fumbling writing into equally moronic 'lessons'.

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20 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

My point was that Sansa has always been the sister we're supposed to suspect, we're supposed to consider untrustworthy and not as 'there' as Arya. But eh, that's what I took from it. D&D don't look so bad when just the show is taken into account, it just comes off as kinda stupid most of the time.
 

That was only in 1.2-9, and even then it was less about suspicions and more about "wow she's stupid / what a bitch to side with Joffrey".

During that period, she was less sympathetic or admirable than Arya - mostly because Arya only admired deserving idols (Syrio, Ned) and could tell that Joffrey was a royal prick;
whereas Sansa was completely delusional about her idol, and kept lashing out at the wrong people the whole time. So that's if you wanna argue that she was portrayed as less sympathetic "due to wanting girly things like wear a dress and marry a prince" LOL


After that, can't really think of any instance where what you're describing applied - not anywhere in KL (after Ned's arrest), not anywhere in the Bolton plot.

If anything, the part where she starts working together with LF (the part that you're saying is the way it's supposed to be), collaborating with that devious deviant who betrayed her family, was the closest she came to that in S1-4 - but, again, had to play a role, was out of options.

Aaaaaand, a bit of something was implied about resenting Jon for taking credit for the battle - but that's ultimately not where the story went.

She wasn't "more in the wrong" (in fact rather less in the wrong) than Arya in that confrontation scene, where Arya was mostly making stupid accusations based off the way Sansa was acting at KL before they parted.

And the only parts where it looks like her loyalties might shift, have to do with having LF as a mentor - but it's always rather weak, and doesn't pay off ultimately.

 

 

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The Inside the Episode segments are the icing on the cake that show what idiotic paradigms they work within.

Such gems like:

'Ramsay's a lot more admirable than Joffrey... like, he fights...'

Well, that's true. The actor quipped about that as well.

Quote

'Euron's gonna make Ramsay look like a puppy' (implying it's just an edginess contest rather than actually writing compelling villains)

It can be both, and that phrasing can be a humorous way to describe the serious thing that you're looking for.

Quote

Needle is... an instrument of revenge, it represents what she's going to use to... to get revenge on everyone who's wronged her family...'

'Creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen...'

Those are cliches already. They also said Stannis was about "ambition" which was inconsistent with the show.

Quote

You get the overall idea that they don't really... get people, nor literary themes, nor anything. Hence why they expect their audience to take away nonsensical 'deeper meanings' from their show, and how it's easy to twist their fumbling writing into equally moronic 'lessons'.

They're absent-minded half the time and phone in many of their interviews, give or take.

 

However, the your attention skills leave a lot to be desired as well.

Edited by Pink Fat Rast

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On 1/26/2018 at 7:48 AM, Beardy the Wildling said:

The Off-Screen Zone and Inside the Episode are the only ways to 'make sense' of the show, and if your work is so poor at speaking for itself that you need the creators going 'uh, Needle, uh, means revenge, so uh... this is significant and stuff...' in order to even slightly understand it, then sorry, you're a shit writer for TV.

LOL  They may be shit writers for TV, but this was a great idea for a thread, despite the derail attempt.  I'm enjoying the reading of the on topic posts, thank you. 

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