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LGBTQ+ 6 -- It's a Rainbow of Flavors


Xray the Enforcer
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The plan for my wife and I, to move to Ireland, next year, had been going along, quite well.  Then , she read an article about a UK law granting  EU citizens and their spouses, permanent resident status, provided they are  living there by a certain date.  She's previously visited the UK and is fond of the Glastonbury area.

Anyone know anything about this, and whether the UK is a smart choice for LGBT people?  I mean, besides my seeing red, any time a plan that has been in place for a while, is changed,  My impression of UK politicians is that they are competing to be as bad as the US.

I mean, as much as I'm not thrilled by this idea, she is 11 years younger that I am, and I have to consider where she'd prefer to live, since she's likely to be their longer than I.

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46 minutes ago, Maltarinho said:

If she’s an Irish citizen, then she may be OK to move to the U.K. at any time, it depends how Brexit interacts with the Common Travel Area

In theory it shouldn't affect it, since I'm pretty sure Irish citizens have been able to live in the UK indefinitely since before the UK joined the EU.

Also this.

Quote

Citizens' rights: UK and Irish nationals in the Common Travel Area

The agreement reached at the December Council ensures that the rights enjoyed by British and Irish citizens under the CTA are protected after the UK leaves the EU.

Details

This means that no UK or Irish nationals will be required to apply for settled status to protect their entitlements in Ireland and the UK respectively. The rights to work, study, access social security and public services will be preserved on a reciprocal basis for UK and Irish nationals.

There will be also be full protection and maintenance of the current arrangements for journeys between the UK and Ireland. This includes movement across the land border between Northern Ireland, protecting the uninhibited movement enjoyed today.

Of course, this is all still potentially subject to change.

Also, for what it's worth, Glastonbury and indeed the whole South-West is a lovely area. As for how welcoming it is for LGBT people, I'm not a good source. I live in Exeter and have several LGBT friends here who don't seem to have had any problems, though Exeter is much larger town with a major university so that changes things a bit. Obviously my perspective is extremely limited.

Edited by Liffguard
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15 hours ago, Robin Of House Hill said:

The plan for my wife and I, to move to Ireland, next year, had been going along, quite well.  Then , she read an article about a UK law granting  EU citizens and their spouses, permanent resident status, provided they are  living there by a certain date.  She's previously visited the UK and is fond of the Glastonbury area.

Anyone know anything about this, and whether the UK is a smart choice for LGBT people?  I mean, besides my seeing red, any time a plan that has been in place for a while, is changed,  My impression of UK politicians is that they are competing to be as bad as the US.

I mean, as much as I'm not thrilled by this idea, she is 11 years younger that I am, and I have to consider where she'd prefer to live, since she's likely to be their longer than I.

From our side of the pond, I can't see that. I can't see an equivalent to Mike Pence up there in a senior political position, and I don't think that could happen. To me, the important difference between Conservatives and Republicans is that Conservatives are much more amoral, Republicans more immoral. Like David Cameron, our last Prime Minister, he supported homophobic legislation when he was younger. But the public tide turned, and so did he, becoming a big support of gay marriage, which he got passed. I think this is pretty typical. He doesn't care about gay rights, but he isn't particularly against them, he just wants power to remain with him and his friends. Whereas Pence, as far as I understand, is not some opportunist, but someone with a very genuine, hateful religious belief, that gay people are deviant and immoral. I do think the crucial difference is that we've overwhelmingly rejected religion in this country. 

The Glastonbury area is beautiful, tolerant and diverse (in terms of people's lifestyles and beliefs. Not ethnically, the whole south west is hella white). 

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I very rarely ever see or encounter homophobia and I’m also in south west. Not saying it doesn’t exist - it most likely does - but I don’t think it’s an unsafe place. The uk doesn’t have the best history with lgbt rights but then again where does???? At present, despite the shitty government, I don’t think the majority are homophobic. 

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6 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I very rarely ever see or encounter homophobia and I’m also in south west. Not saying it doesn’t exist - it most likely does - but I don’t think it’s an unsafe place. The uk doesn’t have the best history with lgbt rights but then again where does???? At present, despite the shitty government, I don’t think the majority are homophobic. 

This is my experience too, even in the pretty socially conservative little backwater where I currently reside. I mean sure you get the odd one or two, as you would anywhere else, but for the most part people are supportive or don’t s seem bothered one way or the other

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22 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Most people really don’t care about others personal business lol British are still quite reserved 

Yeah, I would say in my area (south east) there are quite a few homophobic people, but most aren't going to say or do anything public. I don't want to be dismissive of that, obviously it's still bad they have these attitudes and I can see why someone wouldn't feel comfortable around people who hold prejudice against them, but if it's facing outward displays of hatred that is the primary concern, I think England is as good as anywhere.

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Robin -- I do not think that this board is going to give you the information you need to accurately assess the threat level to your family's rather unusual personal circumstance.

This isn't a slam at those who've spoken thus far -- but one thing I've learned over the last couple of years working in partnership with transgender women, and especially transgender women of color, is that no matter what my personal experience with homophobic bigotry is, I am NEVER going to experience the same threat levels that they do. As such, I'd take the above reports of "not much outward homophobia" with a big grain of salt. 

Edited by Xray el Sicario
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My two pennyworth.

As Xray says, being a straight white male I can't tell, and it probably does depend on what sort of circles you move in, but I would also say that most English people are quite relaxed about homosexuality, with the possible exception of the elderly (70+). We certainly know some lesbian couples who generally seem to have little problem.

My impression is that there was a real sea change in public opinion about 10 - 15 years ago (one of my friends puts it down partly to Big Brother). When Cameron pushed through the gay marriage law a few years back the story is that most of his MPs - older white males almost to a man - were in shocked disagreement to it, until they went back to their constituencies, took soundings, and realised how much out of step with public opinion they had become on the issue.

However, you tangentially mentioned Brexit. What is going to happen after Brexit is in practice still totally up in the air. Any promises of EU citizens being able to live here should, in my opinion, not be counted on. It is also quite possible that England may end up not being a very good place to live full stop. If at all possible I would suggest holding off for a year or so until the situation becomes clearer.

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3 hours ago, Xray el Sicario said:

Robin -- I do not think that this board is going to give you the information you need to accurately assess the threat level to your family's rather unusual personal circumstance.

This isn't a slam at those who've spoken thus far -- but one thing I've learned over the last couple of years working in partnership with transgender women, and especially transgender women of color, is that no matter what my personal experience with homophobic bigotry is, I am NEVER going to experience the same threat levels that they do. As such, I'd take the above reports of "not much outward homophobia" with a big grain of salt. 

I've known that for almost 43 years.  In the early 80s, I used to wear a button with a lesbian symbol on my jacket.  One day, I forgot to remove it, before getting to work.  The company's comptroller was in the elevator when I got in.  I was fired that afternoon.  I was never that dumb again.  Yes, the LGB, unless they advertise, don't have the same problem, the T have.  I've survived by achieving as much cis-normativity as I was capable of, and doing my best, not to attract attention to myself.  (Hell, I'm even taking off another 20 lbs., in order whip myself into shape.  I also avoid people and places that I've found likely to be hostile.  I don't Think the world will improve enough, in my lifetime, for me to abandon that strategy.  

A wilding,  I have little expectation that an electorate that voted for brexit, will do the smart thing on any other issues that arise.

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1 hour ago, A wilding said:

However, you tangentially mentioned Brexit. What is going to happen after Brexit is in practice still totally up in the air. Any promises of EU citizens being able to live here should, in my opinion, not be counted on. It is also quite possible that England may end up not being a very good place to live full stop. If at all possible I would suggest holding off for a year or so until the situation becomes clearer.

Please don't try to use Brexit to put off immigrants. The best chance for getting residency is to get EU residency as soon as possible. England will remain a good place to live. And don't forget, this is an LGBT thread, and there are basic rights to marry, adopt and be protected for hate crime for LGBT people in the UK that much of the EU do not grant. 

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Sure England will remain a better place to live than much of the rest of the world, and I have no idea how you got the impression that I was saying it is not a relatively good place for LGBT people.

But as for using Brexit to "put off immigrants" - I am calling it as I see it, however much I would love to be wrong (our EU friends have all packed up and left already). For example right now I wouldn't want to bet that a desperately stretched NHS will still be providing free services to EU citizens in a few years time.

 

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26 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

 

Please don't try to use Brexit to put off immigrants. The best chance for getting residency is to get EU residency as soon as possible. England will remain a good place to live. And don't forget, this is an LGBT thread, and there are basic rights to marry, adopt and be protected for hate crime for LGBT people in the UK that much of the EU do not grant. 

Brexit probably won’t affect LGBT rights, but I imagine Robin won’t want to move here if the economy has gone off a cliff because we hit the worst case scenario. Best to wait and see what deal (if any) we get with the EU before making any decisions on moving here

 

edit: let’s not discuss Brexit itself too much in this thread, I’m just saying it’s something that any potential immigrants will need to take account of 

Edited by Maltarinho
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1 hour ago, Maltarinho said:

Brexit probably won’t affect LGBT rights, but I imagine Robin won’t want to move here if the economy has gone off a cliff because we hit the worst case scenario. Best to wait and see what deal (if any) we get with the EU before making any decisions on moving here

 

edit: let’s not discuss Brexit itself too much in this thread, I’m just saying it’s something that any potential immigrants will need to take account of 

Our income comes in the form of USD from US sources, and it would actually benefit us if the pound declined against the dollar.  The only worry would be inflation.

As far as the mention of brexit is concerned, it's only relevance in this thread is that those who support it, reflect the kind of conservatism that differentiates between "us and them." So, I think it a valid consideration for LGBT people to consider.

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Robin - Obviously I'm not intimately familiar with the two countries myself, but I do think a pertinent piece of information was highlighted in the recent Repeal the 8th campaign in Ireland. There is a really deep, really nasty strain of TERF that runs through much of 'respectable' or academic British feminism. Irish feminism by contrast wholeheartedly rejected this, and not because there are Trans women in the community that swayed them that way (there are, but it wasn't why), but simply because trans inclusivity follows naturally from their views of womanhood, of feminism and of power dynamics. Simply put they hold those views because they are right.

And the response from these strains of British feminism I talked about? Campaigning against abortion access for Irish women because they'd chosen to ally themselves with trans women.

Now I don't think this is indicative of wider British feminism, its a very particular flavour and its the sort that is invited to give talks at Universities and columns in the news papers, but they're not most women. Nor do I think it's particularly reflective of general UK society being any more transphobic than US or Aus. Quite the contrary, these views are in the process of being pushed out of UK Labour and I think their days are numbered, and I think you would probably be safe and happy there in the UK (economic conditions etc aside). And there are certainly a ton of wonderful people from the UK, some of them in this thread who I very much love!

What I do think this shows though is that for all of its association with the Catholic Church, there is at least a large section of Irish society that are significantly better than what I consider the "baseline" for countries of the Anglosphere. There were some great twitter threads I saw around this a couple of months ago.

I think both countries would be safe and secure for you, particularly given your preferences for stealth, I just think I'd feel more welcome in Ireland in 2018.

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