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LGBTQ+ 6 -- It's a Rainbow of Flavors


Xray the Enforcer
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Anecdotical, but one of my sisters chose to settle in Ireland (well, more exactly, Dublin) over UK or France because she felt women were more respected there. If that can help.

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9 hours ago, karaddin said:

Robin - Obviously I'm not intimately familiar with the two countries myself, but I do think a pertinent piece of information was highlighted in the recent Repeal the 8th campaign in Ireland. There is a really deep, really nasty strain of TERF that runs through much of 'respectable' or academic British feminism. Irish feminism by contrast wholeheartedly rejected this, and not because there are Trans women in the community that swayed them that way (there are, but it wasn't why), but simply because trans inclusivity follows naturally from their views of womanhood, of feminism and of power dynamics. Simply put they hold those views because they are right.

And the response from these strains of British feminism I talked about? Campaigning against abortion access for Irish women because they'd chosen to ally themselves with trans women.

Now I don't think this is indicative of wider British feminism, its a very particular flavour and its the sort that is invited to give talks at Universities and columns in the news papers, but they're not most women. Nor do I think it's particularly reflective of general UK society being any more transphobic than US or Aus. Quite the contrary, these views are in the process of being pushed out of UK Labour and I think their days are numbered, and I think you would probably be safe and happy there in the UK (economic conditions etc aside). And there are certainly a ton of wonderful people from the UK, some of them in this thread who I very much love!

What I do think this shows though is that for all of its association with the Catholic Church, there is at least a large section of Irish society that are significantly better than what I consider the "baseline" for countries of the Anglosphere. There were some great twitter threads I saw around this a couple of months ago.

I think both countries would be safe and secure for you, particularly given your preferences for stealth, I just think I'd feel more welcome in Ireland in 2018.

Thanks for that analysis.  You're far more familiar with all things feminism than I am.  I've been doing my own brand of research (crime statistics, pertinent incidents, etc.), and have concluded that the UK would probably be acceptible, on the basis of safety.  Its position in the international political fray concerns me.  I might be wrong, but it feels more volatile than Ireland.  My wife describes Glastonbury as Portland, Oregon, on steroids, a place where no one cares what you are.  After all these years, she doesn't realize that such area are where I'd be recognized as trans, more easily.  Give me a place where everyone minds there own business.  Well, I'll just research things more, and in any event, I'll survive.

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If you want Portland on steroids, you want West Cork, e.g. Skibereen or Clonakilty. There’s a huge counter culture community down there, some I agree with, some I don’t (anti vas sentiment is high down there, but that’s a subject for another thread). Lots of immigrants for lifestyle, rather than econmic reasons, and a distinct live and let live ethos. Nearish Cork airport, but, to be fair, still fairly small.

Trans is a funny issue over here. As Karaddin notes, the feminist movement and most women’s rights groups are proudly trans inclusive, with some exceptions. However, in the majority of the country, it feels like trans hasn’t permeated consciousness. In a way, stealth may be easier rurally, as it’s just not a thought someone like my 60ish y/o Dad would consider in the first, second or third instance. It’s becoming slightly more prominent, but not hugely from what I can see. I didn’t watch it, so possibly shouldn’t comment, but RTE, the state broadcaster, recently put out a series called my trans life. Might be worth digging out.

 

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4 hours ago, Deedles said:

If you want Portland on steroids, you want West Cork, e.g. Skibereen or Clonakilty. There’s a huge counter culture community down there, some I agree with, some I don’t (anti vas sentiment is high down there, but that’s a subject for another thread). Lots of immigrants for lifestyle, rather than econmic reasons, and a distinct live and let live ethos. Nearish Cork airport, but, to be fair, still fairly small.

Trans is a funny issue over here. As Karaddin notes, the feminist movement and most women’s rights groups are proudly trans inclusive, with some exceptions. However, in the majority of the country, it feels like trans hasn’t permeated consciousness. In a way, stealth may be easier rurally, as it’s just not a thought someone like my 60ish y/o Dad would consider in the first, second or third instance. It’s becoming slightly more prominent, but not hugely from what I can see. I didn’t watch it, so possibly shouldn’t comment, but RTE, the state broadcaster, recently put out a series called my trans life. Might be worth digging out.

 

The funny thing is that Skibereen was the first place we researched in Ireland.  It looked good, but for cost and ability to get along without a car.  Unfortunately, like elsewhere, the most affordable areas tend to be conservative.  Rural areas tend to be the most conservative, although there are exceptions.  This presents anyone  who is stealth with a paradox.  The places that are most welcoming, are the places where you are most likely to recognized as trans, where as those areas that are rural, where LGBT issues are not center stage.  I've seen stuff like this happen since the early 80s.  In New York City's Greenwich Village, where I was recognized much more frequently than other areas, simply because of awareness that we existed.  Other areas of NY, NJ, PA, and AZ posed little problem in comparison.  That changed when I moved to Hollywood, CA, only to discover I was living two blocks form the Los Angeles LGBT Center.  :rolleyes: So, I do best in areas Where I'm not on the radar.  As to RTE's broadcast of My Trans Life, I cringe at such things.  Imagine a conversation of a neighbor that goes like this.  "You know that tall woman who lives across they way?.  She looks a lot like these folks."  What happens after that, is worrisome.  Oh well.

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i can only talk to South Wales valleys and Cornwall and can honestly say most people don’t really care at all what you are. I see lesbian couples relatively often. In both places. 

I really, really think that rural places and working class people get a very bad rap when it comes to percieved bigotry - especially in the UK. Yes - it exists and yes we had a referendum that voted to leave the EU because of an awful campaign that predominantly preyed on xenophobia but I have to say that I don’t think rural British people, for the most part are all that hostile towards lgbt people at all. Not now anyway. 

I read an excellent book Pride that was a companion book to the film that came out a few years back - brilliant film too, about Lesbian and Gay Activists teaming up with South Welsh Miners during the mining strike and building up a lasting friendship. There was this idea, a lot of the time from middle class politicians, that working class people like miners would be the most bigoted, the most violent and hateful and maybe in parts of England and Scotland that was true - but the overriding attitude by the miners was the men not caring about their personal lives and being thankful for help in the fight against thatcher and a lot of the women becoming close friends with the gay and lesbian activists, this was mid 80s btw near the AIDS scare when homophobia in the country was really at its worst because of thatcher. I think some of the children, after that visit later came out as gay from that and neighbouring valleys and were accepted. I see quite a fair amount of lesbian couples, in particular, in Wales. Don’t forget uk isn’t just England. 

But yeah I don’t think things are rosy here, and there definitely must be prejudice that I don’t see, certainly my young trans friends speak of it but actually they all live in cities. 

I don’t think rural areas, in that regard, are all that unsafe at all. I don’t know what rural America is like, only what films and tv tell me tbh - but traditionally in places like wales and to a lesser extent cornwall with big mining (working class) communities the politics of the people, personal politics,  have always been very left wing bordering on socialist opposed to right wing in a lot of cases. Of course that was many decades ago now and things have changed politically - the Tories are still awful - but now they other groups of people to attack. I haven’t noticed an overwhelming anti-lgbt attitude here. 

Individual people but for the most part people aren’t that bothered in the two areas of the UK I’ve spent a significant amount of time in. 

But from the sounds of it - Ireland might suit you better to live Robin, nothing stops you visiting UK when/if you live there :) 

i just wanted to say that rural areas here aren’t really violent or unsafe for the most part 

Edited by Theda Baratheon
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I want to counter all the sunny optimism about the UK by noting that it was in living memory that the government put into law Section 28 (which banned the 'promotion' of homosexuality in schools). 

Now, since then there has been a wonderful revolution in social attitudes in this area. And yes, even in rural areas, the attitudes of people under 40 and particularly under 20 are tolerant and even supportive of LGBT+ people in general. But among older people of the generation who were in power when the above was made law, it can be quite different, and even among younger people there are still bigots. It only takes a handful of these people to cause grief. And I would say that trans* people are the most likely of the LGBT+ to suffer prejudice in my experience. 

Remember that bigotry that is suppressed because it's not socially acceptable can still manifest in ways that make life uncomfortable. 

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Truthfully, the ideal place would be one of fairly low population, where one had access to shopping that was not too distant, where people minded their own business, so I could live in quiet obscurity, but where there was was enough to see and do, so my wife doesn't get bored.  Any area where there haven't been incidents targeting LGBT people, but don't have a highly visible LGBT community, would probably work best.

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On 6/25/2018 at 10:49 AM, Robin Of House Hill said:

Thanks for that analysis.  You're far more familiar with all things feminism than I am.  I've been doing my own brand of research (crime statistics, pertinent incidents, etc.), and have concluded that the UK would probably be acceptible, on the basis of safety.  Its position in the international political fray concerns me.  I might be wrong, but it feels more volatile than Ireland.  My wife describes Glastonbury as Portland, Oregon, on steroids, a place where no one cares what you are.  After all these years, she doesn't realize that such area are where I'd be recognized as trans, more easily.  Give me a place where everyone minds there own business.  Well, I'll just research things more, and in any event, I'll survive.

Portland, Or on steroids is the stuff of all of my nightmares.  However, if you are right about that community alert.  They swarm around young first.  It **might** buy you some invisibility 

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Outed myself at work due to carpool necessity / science community is a small town / this is a small town.  Hopefully shes not a gossip, because with ONE second degree connection she has information that could damn me from returning next summer to do research.  @Robin Of House Hill, people are the GODDAMNED worse and you are right.

Edit:  I'm not worried that being outed will make me appear "more difficult".  Ok I am.  I'm not PRIMARILY worried about that.

Edited by Lily Valley
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3 minutes ago, Lily Valley said:

Outed myself at work due to carpool necessity / science community is a small town / this is a small town.  Hopefully shes not a gossip, because with ONE second degree connection she has information that could damn me from returning next summer to do research.  @Robin Of House Hill, people are the GODDAMNED worse and you are right.

Edit:  I'm not worried that being outed will make me appear "more difficult".  Ok I am.  I'm not PRIMARILY worried about that.

While I'm sure I don't understand the connection between outing oneself and carpools. I can say that there has only been one time in my entire life that doing so has had a positive outcome, was in 1984, after two women I had trusted, turned on me, after an ongoing disagreement.  I learned they had outed me, and to whom, on a Wednesday night.  I knew it would get to all of my friends (we all had a common interest, which is how we met) by the weekend.  Since I was meeting with two close friends from that same circle of friends, for cake and coffee on Friday afternoon, I figured I'd let them know directly, rather than hear it from those who might be hostile.  It went well, obviously, since one of them is my wife.  That was the only time, that sort of thing went well.  I should mention that it was the same day I was fired from my job, because I'd forgotten  to remove a lesbian symbol button from my jacket and the company comptroller saw it.

 

 

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OMG just found out one of the lesbians in the museumhates me (btw am drunk) and I always knew she disn like me but I couldn’t figure out why abd she hates me because apparently I’m a TOKEN GAY who ITS CUTE SHE TRIES TO FIT IN (Ive barely spoken to her????) and that I only recently came out as bisexual (really????? Bee ‘out! Since I was 19 biiitch( and so it’s a fad and I’m annoying

wtf

im hurt

but I’m also like wtf !!!!!!!! I never speak to her I don’t overly bring up my sexuality’s it’s  just who I am.....wtf

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59 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

OMG just found out one of the lesbians in the museumhates me (btw am drunk) and I always knew she disn like me but I couldn’t figure out why abd she hates me because apparently I’m a TOKEN GAY who ITS CUTE SHE TRIES TO FIT IN (Ive barely spoken to her????) and that I only recently came out as bisexual (really????? Bee ‘out! Since I was 19 biiitch( and so it’s a fad and I’m annoying

wtf

im hurt

but I’m also like wtf !!!!!!!! I never speak to her I don’t overly bring up my sexuality’s it’s  just who I am.....wtf

But she seems to think you are cute. 

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3 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

OMG just found out one of the lesbians in the museumhates me (btw am drunk) and I always knew she disn like me but I couldn’t figure out why abd she hates me because apparently I’m a TOKEN GAY who ITS CUTE SHE TRIES TO FIT IN (Ive barely spoken to her????) and that I only recently came out as bisexual (really????? Bee ‘out! Since I was 19 biiitch( and so it’s a fad and I’m annoying

wtf

im hurt

but I’m also like wtf !!!!!!!! I never speak to her I don’t overly bring up my sexuality’s it’s  just who I am.....wtf

SIgh, I really hate this shit :( how old is she?

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6 hours ago, karaddin said:

SIgh, I really hate this shit :( how old is she?

A few years older than me - late 20s. I knew she seemed off with me and I went for drinks with a few of my museum friends and they said she’d said that and I just was not surprised at all. Lots of lesbian and bisexual women in this museum as well that are really lovely to me, in fact I think she’s really friendly to another bi woman. But always seemed kinda cold with me even though we’ve had a couple of nice conversations on occasion. Such a weird reason not to like me but not the first time I’ve encountered that sentiment :(

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7 hours ago, Xray el Sicario said:

The gatekeeping is bullshit, but try to not let it get you down. Her words say way more about her than they do about you. 

It's more her being a bit cold towards me which makes encounters in the museum (where I am desperately always trying to make a good impression and advance) that bothers me more than her actual words. I don't much care about her other than drunk initial hurt. It's that this has to happen in a professional place for me. Oh well, she's childish - and I won't be in that particular museum forever. I'm hoping to move to a city when I pass my driving test and volunteer in a larger museum to make better contacts and gain more experience but this type of thing does make me nervous if it's going to happen in other professional places. 

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