LGBTQ+ 6 -- It's a Rainbow of Flavors

[Derfel Cadarn]

Bit of a strange request here, but I'm looking for LGBTQIA sensitivity readers for my recently finished epic fantasy novel, The Blood Hour.

The first round of edits have been done with my agent, and once finalised it will be submitted to the various UK/US fantasy publishers (Orbit, Tor, Gollancz etc).

A number of the characters fall under the LGBTQIA umbrella, in particular one character introduced halfway through is what we might consider agender (but not asexual). Other characters in the group are pan, bi, and one likely gay though this is not confirmed in this book. As a hetero CIS male, this is all well outside my lived experience, hence the request for people in the LGBTQIA community (particularly those with an interest in fantasy) to read the book and point out anything that might cause offense through ignorance, or could be improved.

The agender character will take on a more prominent role in the next book, which I'll be planning soon, and so while any feedback will help improve The Blood Hour, I'm also looking ahead. I'm not particularly after (though happy to receive) general feedback; I'm posting in this thread because I'm specifically looking for feedback relating to the LGBTQIA elements/characters.

If anyone is interested in reading over this book (the Word file can be sent to kindle), please let me know either in this thread or by DM. As mentioned, the book has undergone one round of edits, so it's pretty polished and mostly error-free. If anyone's interested, I've outlined a brief description of the setting/characters, and am happy to answer any questions.

Spoiler

The setting: Earth tens or hundreds of thousands of years from now, after a number of catastrophes. Humanity's development approx equivalent to 1500-2000 years ago. Geographically the world's mostly recognisable as ours, but there have been changes, and it's also inherited a second moon. Araka=Africa, Keram = Europe.

The book starts in the city of Mask in northern Araka (essentially Egypt, albeit with inspirations from Morocco) and will involve a mixed group of adventurers travelling south and west across the desert to find an ancient temple. After a number of misadventures in Mask, of course, including perhaps the gutsiest, 'cheekiest' assassination in history. The 'travel' part is essentially Egypt to Nigeria as part of a caravan made up of 3000 camels, across a vast desert. And post-caravan, through a rainforest. With flashforwards to 2000 years in the future, which ties in to the main plot.

Characters:

Shukara: A magicker and leader of the group, hailing from southern Araka. Essentially a young, black female Gandalf. Not entirely forthcoming with the group. On a quest to save the world, which will lead her to the tomb of the Bone King.

Tamira: An eighteen year old native of Mask, <spoiler> turned thief turned assassin, nearing the end of her vengeance quest. Knows Shukara from an adventure five years previous.

Garius: A sellsword from Daria in southern Keram (Italy/Greece). He's trying to break a curse, in-between guarding caravans and indulging in drink and sex. His curse plays an important role. Basically an anti-paladin.

Roan: A gladiator from northern Keram (Scottish, basically). A bit of a nod to Conan. He was enslaved half a world away and isn't fucking happy about it, wanting nothing more than to return to his people.

Jassan: A desert ranger. Hails from the Kavari tribe, named after the Kavari Desert. The clans of that tribe mostly live on the fringes of the desert, claiming many of the oases within. Caravans wanting to cross the desert (the Sahara, essentially) must travel with Kavari rangers. The Kavari are a blend of the Berbers of North Africa and the San (Bush) people of South Africa. Previously adventured with Shukara and Tamira, which led to a rise in eminence for his clan, with increased wealth and political danger.

Shuang: Ostensibly a bard from the Mountains of Valal in the very distant east (China), who meets the above during the caravan journey across the desert. They do not identify as either male or female, though they do pursue romantic/sexual relationships. Shuang walks the path of the Optimal, that will lead them to the Unbroken Circle.

Laquan: A warrior accompanying Shuang. His late wife was a bardic mentor to Shuang, and his response to her awful death saw him exiled.

 

 

 

[Jace, Extat]

I'm like a T or whatever I guess. 

I don't like to associate too freely with the rest of you because I think you're all emotional cripples and borderline insane about something (self-awareness) that should make you cool to be around instead of a social game of Battleship where the point is to avoid scoring a hit (on targets you can't see that also apparently move whenever they want) for as long as possible. 

That's not to say that like I don't like my fellow rainbow people. I just know you motherfuckers don't like me. And that's alright. 

Peace. 

[Jace, Extat]

On 2/26/2019 at 8:30 PM, Sivin said:

It is my experience with those of my kind that they like to talk a lot. It is unbearable but also completely understandable. Most trans folks have kept a large part (too large, in most cases I find) of their personality bottled up for years or decades and are excited to talk it out or explore their feelings with someone other than themselves. 

I can't stand it, personally, but I've also caught myself falling into the trap so I can I think relate with some objectivity the dynamic. 

So if you can handle it, let them talk themselves out. 

On 2/26/2019 at 8:30 PM, Sivin said:

It is my experience with those of my kind that they like to talk a lot. It is unbearable but also completely understandable. Most trans folks have kept a large part (too large, in most cases I find) of their personality bottled up for years or decades and are excited to talk it out or explore their feelings with someone other than themselves. 

I can't stand it, personally, but I've also caught myself falling into the trap so I can I think relate with some objectivity the dynamic. 

So if you can handle it, let them talk themselves out. 

 

Ooops 

[Sivin]

On 3/4/2023 at 3:16 AM, Secretary of Eumenes said:

 

Ooops 

What's your favorite scary movie? 

[Varysblackfyre321]

“WONT SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!” quickly moved to “won’t someone think of the young people”  

To most terfs especially the famous ones there was never a circumstance to which a person should be allowed to transition.

[HexMachina]

Happy Pride! We had Northern Pride this weekend, and this year I organised a small group of us to go from work together. Work paid for us to get tshirts printed, and for our tickets and gave us a budget for food and drinks (this is budgeted in our LGBTQIA+ annual budget).

In true British summertime vibes, it had pittled down all weekend but honestly, this is the happiest I've felt in a long time. Just being surrounded by so much love, acceptance and like minded people was pretty euphoric. It was also lovely seeing so many families out together supporting the parade - we've been having some pretty harrowing conversations this week about the lived experiences of some older members of the community at my workplace so seeing a reminder that things are improving was lovely. Its often very easy to forget what progress has been made when you are reading the news and seeing so much doom and gloom.

Not to discredit what still needs to be done, and the need to fight to hold on to what we have. But for one weekend at least I'm just going to bask in this joy

Edited July 23, 2023 by HelenaExMachina

[TrackerNeil]

On 6/4/2023 at 4:58 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

To most terfs especially the famous ones there was never a circumstance to which a person should be allowed to transition.

Can you give me an example of a TERF? As in, name names?

[Varysblackfyre321]

20 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

Can you give me an example of a TERF? As in, name names?

Assuming this is in good faith and you’re not one of those “terf is a slur” types who think anyone short of Matt Walsh can’t be called transphobic or insists such terminology is silly.

Jk Rowling(of course obviously), Maya Forester, Julie Bindel are examples of people who’d fit the label. 

Oh and this guy whose using his regret for his transition to try and justify banning all trans.

Any thoughts on how the times are fear mongering about a 32 year grown man transitioning after/during years of therapy. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Zorral]

All those fascist politicians, just starting with the governor of Florida.

[TrackerNeil]

21 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Jk Rowling(of course obviously), Maya Forester, Julie Bindel are examples of people who’d fit the label. 

Have any of those people stated they think people should be prevented from transitioning? I confess I don't know as much about Rowling or Maya Forstater as I might, but I am pretty familiar with Julie Bindel. I don't recall her ever stating that nobody should be allowed to transition. Maybe I missed something, and if so, I'd like to hear what that was. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by TrackerNeil

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

Have

Before we proceed with your sealioning can you discuss  your feelings on the times fearmongering about adults transitioning?

 

 

 

[TrackerNeil]

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Before we proceed with your sealioning can you discuss  your feelings on the times fearmongering about adults transitioning?

Varys, can you answer or can't you? If you can, great; if you can't, admit it and then I'll be happy to answer your question.

[JGP]

Barking up the wrong tree there, Varys

[karaddin]

26 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

Can you give me an example of a TERF? As in, name names?

Janice Raymond, Cathy Brennan, Sheila Jeffreys, Germaine Greer, Julie Bindel to name some of the prominent ones that have been at it for decades and are rooted in feminist discourse.

More recent prominence includes some that have adopted the style of TERFs but aren't necessarily actually feminists like Kathleen Stock (actually a philosophy academic), Posie Parker/Kelly-Jay Keen-Minshull (actually a misogynist right wing Nazi but gets treated like she's a feminist anyway).

This enough to get started or do I need to provide detailed literature studies on each of them? To go with the first on the list one of the books she's known for is "The Transexual Empire: The Making of the She-Male". There was a TERF that was involved in lobbying Congress over how to handle trans care back in the 80s that managed to delay improved trans care for at least a couple of decades, I'm 90% this was Janice Raymond but trying to confirm that at the moment.

I haven't read past the first section of this as it's very long, I found it while attempting to search for the above answer but it's covering the history of "TERF Wars" after gender critical people objected to the use of "TERF" in a gender subject when it wasn't even used by the convenor but simply students on their own.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0038026120934713#bibr49-0038026120934713

[karaddin]

31 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

Have any of those people stated they think people should be prevented from transitioning? I confess I don't know as much about Rowling or Maya Forstater as I might, but I am pretty familiar with Julie Bindel. I don't recall her ever stating that nobody should be allowed to transition. Maybe I missed something, and if so, I'd like to hear what that was. 

Following up on my post - yes, Janice Raymond heavily contributed to a US Government decision in the early 80s to not cover trans healthcare.

https://www.transadvocate.com/fact-checking-janice-raymond-the-nchct-report_n_14554.htm

Aside from this it's pretty disingenuous of you to require an explicit statement of "not allowing transition at all" to consider that as trans exclusionary. You know very well that these movements work by setting goal posts that are close, and then shifting them as soon as they are crossed. Someone who doesn't want trans people to be allowed to transition at all will start with things like "minors shouldn't be allowed puberty blockers", "trans care shouldn't be paid for as it's not medically necessary", and dramatically increasing the gate keeping on access to care rather than jumping straight to banning transition completely.

ETA: I didn't reread all of the Varys post your initial question was replying to, just your question itself. With that context I understand more why you're asking that but I still think it's pretty ridiculous to expect them to openly say that when that's not the MO for this type of movement and Varys was making an assertion of their implied true goal, not a claim that it's openly stated.

Edited July 24, 2023 by karaddin

[Varysblackfyre321]

8 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

Varys, can you answer or can't you?

I can but I feel as though I have to get you to answer mine  or else you’ll just ignore it completely as the conversation progresses.
Please notice how I answered your initial question on examples of terfs with promptness and letting you know I was taking it as one of good faith(that you weren’t just offended at terfs getting bad-mouthed)

Can you not do me a similar kindness and answer the question I posed to you after answering your initial one?

If you wish to have an honest dialogue, a back and forth I’m perplexed on the obstinate.

[Varysblackfyre321]

8 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Following up on my post - yes, Janice Raymond heavily contributed to a US Government decision in the early 80s to not cover trans healthcare.

https://www.transadvocate.com/fact-checking-janice-raymond-the-nchct-report_n_14554.htm

Aside from this it's pretty disingenuous of you to require an explicit statement of "not allowing transition at all" to consider that as trans exclusionary. You know very well that these movements work by setting goal posts that are close, and then shifting them as soon as they are crossed. Someone who doesn't want trans people to be allowed to transition at all will start with things like "minors shouldn't be allowed puberty blockers", "trans care shouldn't be paid for as it's not medically necessary", and dramatically increasing the gate keeping on access to care rather than jumping straight to banning transition completely.

Eventually you see concerns being waged by major newspapers being waged about a 32 year old man transitioning after over half a decade of therapy.

If that case is worth condemnation  there can be no case where medically transitioning could ever be okay.

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[TrackerNeil]

Just now, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I can but I feel as though I have to get you to answer mine  or else you’ll just ignore it completely as the conversation progresses.

Very well. I have no real opinion on the article to which you linked, because I have not read that article in its entirety. I'm not going to form an opinion based on a snippet I saw on Twitter.

That said, I certainly think that a choice made as an adult is very different from that made as a child. It seems as though Herron made an adult decision. I don't know UK law, certainly, so I can't say whether or not his legal action will succeed, but it sounds like he has a hard row to hoe.

3 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Aside from this it's pretty disingenuous of you to require an explicit statement of "not allowing transition at all" to consider that as trans exclusionary. You know very well that these movements work by setting goal posts that are close, and then shifting them as soon as they are crossed. Someone who doesn't want trans people to be allowed to transition at all will start with things like "minors shouldn't be allowed puberty blockers", "trans care shouldn't be paid for as it's not medically necessary", and dramatically increasing the gate keeping on access to care rather than jumping straight to banning transition completely.

Karaddin, I think you and I are talking past each other, so I will clarify. I have not defended Julie Bindel as not being a TERF, or whatever. Varys made a very specific factual claim, and I asked for evidence to support that claim. That's it.

Maybe Bindel is on the road to banning these treatments completely...I don't live in her head so I couldn't say. What I can say, and have said, is that I don't know that she has ever supported laws banning adults from transitioning. Since I don't know, I asked. I'm still curious. I've heard her speak many times, and I did some Googling, but I haven't found an answer. I was hoping to get one here.

[karaddin]

1 minute ago, TrackerNeil said:

Very well. I have no real opinion on the article to which you linked, because I have not read that article in its entirety. I'm not going to form an opinion based on a snippet I saw on Twitter.

That said, I certainly think that a choice made as an adult is very different from that made as a child. It seems as though Herron made an adult decision. I don't know UK law, certainly, so I can't say whether or not his legal action will succeed, but it sounds like he has a hard row to hoe.

Karaddin, I think you and I are talking past each other, so I will clarify. I have not defended Julie Bindel as not being a TERF, or whatever. Varys made a very specific factual claim, and I asked for evidence to support that claim. That's it.

Please see my edit on that post, I was missing the starting point of your question.

I'm not aware of Bindel having ever said explicitly that she would ban it outright but wouldn't expect her to actually come out and say it, just do everything to make it as hard as possible.

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 minutes ago, karaddin said:

You know very well that these movements work by setting goal posts that are close, and then shifting them as soon as they are crossed.

One should notice there’s not a lot of space between banning teaching about  lgbt rights movement to minors and banning teaching of it outright.

I’m remembering on how the don’t say gay bill was framed as just happening to 1-3 grade.

Then it got expanded up until 12 grade and a teacher got investigated for showing a Disney movie where a boy said they wanted to kiss another boy.