LGBTQ+ 6 -- It's a Rainbow of Flavors

[Lily Valley]

Gatekeeping SUCKS.  And that's what she's doing.  "Queerer than thou" queers are just mean girls / boys in an outside of high school environment.  You're better off knowing that she's superficial and childish NOW before she can actually hurt your career. 

I think I broke my microscope yesterday.  I have to be the clumsiest faggot on earth.  This trip has been a series of "The Most Awful Things That I Can Possibly Do Under Stress, squared."  And right now i am sitting on the porch trying to have a wine and i am LITERALLY getting wrapped in a spider web.  

Please burn this address with fire.

[Theda Baratheon]

and Then on the other hand this lovely new girl in work just revealed that she asked one of the blokes in work if there was anything between us (Absolutely NOT - I REALLY like him but DONT fancy him...) and he said no that he thinks I’m a lesbian and she said “no I’m Pan and I’m pretty sure Siân is bisexual” and he was like “no shes a lesbian” which tbh him believing either works for me because I like him and sometimes worry I come across as flirting by just being really chatty and friendly so if he thinks I’m a lesbian then that’s not so bad  I mean I’ve never said I am so I’m not lying. But I was very happy and pleased that the girl recognised me as bi!!! I know it’s not for everyone but I’m relatively open about it - I don’t lie if someone asks me and sometimes I’ll mention women I’m attracted to and it’s nice when I get recognised by other lgbtq+/queer people  

[karaddin]

Any chance she was asking if there was something between you and the bloke because she's interested?

[Tywin et al.]

Small bit of progress, but progress none the less. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-45429664

[Robin Of House Hill]

I don't know if anyone will find the information contained in the link, below is as problematic as I do, but if anyone doesn't think it is problematic, I'd really like to know why.  There are two quotes that are particularly troubling, because they can be used to lay blame at the feet of certain people, based on how they identify and live.  Because if someone is non-binary, or cannot pass, this article hints that those who are binary and pass, are part of the problem

" However, it was gender-conforming transgender individuals (i.e., feminine transgender women, or masculine transgender men) who were viewed as being the most threatening towards gender boundaries. As Broussard put it, “it is likely that conforming transgender individuals (because they can ‘pass’ as their authentic gender) are especially threatening because they provide some evidence that there are more than two binary genders, or that [one’s] binary gender can be changed.” "

" In other words, if you strongly believe that there are only two sexes and that those two sexes always create two genders, and that it is not possible for someone to change from being one gender to another, being presented with a masculine trans man (someone who was identified female at birth) who visually and behaviorally is indistinguishable from a cisgender man, may be a very jarring experience that challenges binary beliefs about gender. Furthermore, gender conforming trans individuals may elicit distinctiveness threat because if you yourself are a man and hinge a great deal of your identity on being a man, what does this piece of your identity really mean if someone born female can ‘pass’ as being just “as much of a man” as you? Thus, the more an individual strongly believes in the gender binary, the more threatening transgender individuals (especially those who ‘pass’) are to that individual’s own personal identity as either a man or a woman.  "

 

What Precisely Do Transgender People Threaten?

[karaddin]

I don't find them problematic at all because I think you're dramatically misreading the tone. I haven't read the whole piece, just what you've quoted here so perhaps in context supports your reading, but in isolation? Your reading would be consistent with if that piece was victim blaming, but it reads like its trying to identify the psychological processing that takes place in transphobes, but it still locates the problem as inside of them - not blaming the people that trigger that process in them.

[Robin Of House Hill]

For some reason, a previous post was cached, and duplicated. 

Edited October 3, 2018 by Robin Of House Hill
Repeat of old post

[Robin Of House Hill]

The article does not engage in victim blaming. I did not mean to imply that. It's how some might respond to it,that worries me. But, I suppose I might be the only one who sees it that way. Probably my misfortune to have witnessed conversations where such thoughts have been expressed. 

[mankytoes]

5 hours ago, Robin Of House Hill said:

I don't know if anyone will find the information contained in the link, below is as problematic as I do, but if anyone doesn't think it is problematic, I'd really like to know why.  There are two quotes that are particularly troubling, because they can be used to lay blame at the feet of certain people, based on how they identify and live.  Because if someone is non-binary, or cannot pass, this article hints that those who are binary and pass, are part of the problem

" However, it was gender-conforming transgender individuals (i.e., feminine transgender women, or masculine transgender men) who were viewed as being the most threatening towards gender boundaries. As Broussard put it, “it is likely that conforming transgender individuals (because they can ‘pass’ as their authentic gender) are especially threatening because they provide some evidence that there are more than two binary genders, or that [one’s] binary gender can be changed.” "

" In other words, if you strongly believe that there are only two sexes and that those two sexes always create two genders, and that it is not possible for someone to change from being one gender to another, being presented with a masculine trans man (someone who was identified female at birth) who visually and behaviorally is indistinguishable from a cisgender man, may be a very jarring experience that challenges binary beliefs about gender. Furthermore, gender conforming trans individuals may elicit distinctiveness threat because if you yourself are a man and hinge a great deal of your identity on being a man, what does this piece of your identity really mean if someone born female can ‘pass’ as being just “as much of a man” as you? Thus, the more an individual strongly believes in the gender binary, the more threatening transgender individuals (especially those who ‘pass’) are to that individual’s own personal identity as either a man or a woman.  "

 

What Precisely Do Transgender People Threaten?

Huh, I thought that was a really good article, because it is a question I've thought about quite a few times. Not why certain people don't accept aspects of modern gender norms, gender is a difficult subject. But why people care so much. People get so worked up about how trans women aren't women, often without giving any reason why they care, how it negatively affects them in any way. Ever since we can remember, we've been taught there are girls and boys. Girls have this room, boys have this room. Girls do this, boys do this. It's a key foundation for the worldview of many people. 

The thing I would always emphasise is, whatever your view of gender, saying "there are only two sexes and that's that" is pretty much akin to being a flat earth, scientifically speaking. Intersex people have always existed and this is very well documented. 

[Robin Of House Hill]

Perhaps, if we look at it from the context that it gives credence to views that have been expressed within the transgender 'community.'  Examples follow.

Laverne Cox Challenges Passing Privilege and Lifts Up Trans Beauty

Laverne Cox: Being Trans Isn’t About Blending In — And That’s Beautiful

Why Passing is Both Controversial and Central to the Trans Community

The ‘obsession’ with trans ‘passing’.

Op-ed: I'm a Trans Man Who Doesn't 'Pass' — And You Shouldn't Either

There are many more like these.  Because such sentiment exists, I am concerned when a piece by psychologists, reinforces those beliefs.  The counterargument is rarely heard, because those who pass, blend in, or live stealth, don't usually negate the benefits of what they are doing, to take part in the discussion.  So, I'll say it.  The advantage of passing is that it shields you (to the degree you successfully pass) from the hatred, bigotry and hostility that a substantial portion of society has toward trans people.  It allows you to obtain employment and housing, even in conservative areas.  In other words, it lets you live your life, just like everyone else.  From a personal perspective, that many may not share, it allows you to be perceived simply as a human being, and not an 'other."

I'll be merciful, and not mention the binary/non-binary aspect of the article.  Experience has taught me to avoid that.

ETA:  One last link.

Stealth Doesn’t Help The Trans Community

That title is accurate. Stealth/blending in/passing predates the trans community.  It was the original way that most trans people lived.  The only time it changed was when the news media outed one of us, as happened to Christine Jorgensen and Renee Richards.

The article contains a blatant lie.  For the vast majority of stealth trans women, stealth was never about obtaining "cis privilege."  It was about obtaining employment, housing, and avoiding ridicule, harassment, assault, or even death. But yeah, we didn't answer the call for visibility, as if having greater numbers made the haters hate us any less.

I did this as an edit, rather than a separate post.  I have no desire to bump the thread to the top of the page.  There is no further reason for me to participate in this topic.  I wish you well.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Robin Of House Hill
Additional link and commentary.

[karaddin]

@Robin Of House Hill After the escalation of TERFs attempting to incite violence in the UK in the last couple of months I'd revise my earlier ranking and view Ireland as a significantly better option. I'm not sure (due to not being on Facebook lately) whether you've made a final decision or not but your concerns are looking scarily prophetic now. I'm sure we both wish you'd been wrong.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Honestly, that has been my thought, all along.  Now, the problem is that if I have to wait till October, 2019, whether I'll have a valid passport.  The state department has already  revoked a couple on "technicalities."  And with this BS, they'll have an excuse to invalidate every passport isued to any trans person.

[karaddin]

2 hours ago, Robin Of House Hill said:

Honestly, that has been my thought, all along.  Now, the problem is that if I have to wait till October, 2019, whether I'll have a valid passport.  The state department has already  revoked a couple on "technicalities."  And with this BS, they'll have an excuse to invalidate every passport isued to any trans person.

I wasn't sure if your passport has any kind of paper trail associated that would catch you out, does it? Or is it just a reasonable concern that something might link back anyway?

And it's fucked that we even have to think like this.

I still think visibility is important long term, and think after same sex marriage they'd have dragged us up as the new Boogeyman anyway, but your safety concerns are certainly being vindicated.

[Robin Of House Hill]

It is a little known fact that the State Dept. has a regulation that a passport application can be challenged if the birth certificate submitted with the passport application was issued substantially later than the date of birth.  They challenged my application, which required that I submit documentation explaining its issuance date.  So yes, there is a paper trail.  I can obtain an Israeli passport, but that requires that I travel there, until it is issued.  It's an extra expense, but is moderated by the fact that my air fare, there would be paid for.  I'd just have to live there for the time it takes them to actually issue the passport.  I'd have to pay for the return trip.  It still means a couple of months, living there.  I have to consider that we may simply have to find an isolated pocket of calm, in the storm that is brewing in the US.

I think I'm past debating the pros and cons of visibility.  Some embrace it, and others, like me, who don't, try to survive it. 

It angers me that the world has gotten to be like this, though I never expected better.  I can't imagine what it feels like for those who believed things would get better.

[Bonnot OG]

34 minutes ago, Robin Of House Hill said:

It is a little known fact that the State Dept. has a regulation that a passport application can be challenged if the birth certificate submitted with the passport application was issued substantially later than the date of birth.  They challenged my application, which required that I submit documentation explaining its issuance date.  So yes, there is a paper trail.  I can obtain an Israeli passport, but that requires that I travel there, until it is issued.  It's an extra expense, but is moderated by the fact that my air fare, there would be paid for.  I'd just have to live there for the time it takes them to actually issue the passport.  I'd have to pay for the return trip.  It still means a couple of months, living there.  I have to consider that we may simply have to find an isolated pocket of calm, in the storm that is brewing in the US.

I think I'm past debating the pros and cons of visibility.  Some embrace it, and others, like me, who don't, try to survive it. 

It angers me that the world has gotten to be like this, though I never expected better.  I can't imagine what it feels like for those who believed things would get better.

IDK how you feel about arming yourself, but if you're comfortable with it and can, go for it. 

This whole thing is making me fucking rage to no end. A sibling of mine is trans, and this gov means to harm them as well as trans friends of mine. 

And even if I didn't have a connection to this, it would still piss me off.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Actually, I am armed from time to time, but it's precaution only.  I haven't been physically threatened in almost 40 years.  So I don't think that is the answer to the problem.  This attack by the government is far more sophisticated than simply threatening physical violence.  It's designed to deny legal protection from any form of discrimination.

[karaddin]

The acts of incitement in the UK are actually the sort of thing that being armed would be more relevant for, since it's encouraging mean to enact violence on an individual level without the power of the state behind it. 

I actually think the ones with the most right to be furious are those few still surviving who fought off fascism last time it rose and thought it was done for good, only for their children and grandchildren to try bring it back at the end of their lives. We're all more than justified in our fury though.

[Robin Of House Hill]

I've been paying too much attention to what is going on in the US, and not enough to the UK.  It's sadly ironic that the country where I should be armed is the country that won't permit me to.  Thanks for alerting me to the UK nonsense.  TERFs on the left of me, government on the right...

What a time to be alive! 

[Robin Of House Hill]

Anyone know of anything that might make Albuquerque, New Mexico especially problematic for LGBT people?  My research hasn't shown anything.

[The guy from the Vale]

So... a person who has become a friend over the last two years told me on Friday that they are actually trans. I thanked them for their trust in telling me this and offered my support and care with that information. Still, this is a new experience for me, so if some of the good people of this board have any advice what else I can do for them, that is much appreciated.