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Moon tea is used to prevent or abort pregnancies and both maesters and woods witches know how to make it, even north of the Wall. So I have two questions -

1. Is it more acceptable for women in Westeros to use moon tea than it is for a woman in our world to have an abortion? Hoster Tully gave moon tea to Lysa. Was that preferably to his daughter giving birth to a bastard fathered by a very minor noble? The Faith damns bastards, so would the clergy support moon tea? Or is there a pro-life movement in Westeros?

2. Why are there so many bastards if moon tea were so widely available? For example, why wasn't Lollys Stokeworth or Delena Florent (mother of Edric Storm) or Ramsay's mother given moon tea?

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1. That this question is even asked is a testament to how sad our world really is... 

2. I don't think all maesters can make moon tea, or all can afford it. Look at the documented cases of moon tea in Westeros. Hoster Tully and Cersei are among the highest nobles in all of Westeros, their maesters can be more knowledgable than others, and they certainly do not lack the funding for moon tea. The case for Jeyne Westerling, they are an ancient house. Although they lost almost all their wealth, Sybell made a deal with Tywin, so she may have gotten the moon tea for Jeyne from him, or a knowledgable maester. 

And witches beyond the wall have different knowledge than the maesters and can maybe make it another way. Or the original knowledge came from the north and some visiting maester took the knowledge to the citadel from there and therefore it is much more widespread beyond the wall.

There is also the cases of fathers do not know that they made the girl pregnant. Say a noble have sex with a common girl and then leaves. She has no way to contact maesters or funding to pay for moon tea, so here comes a bastard...

It could also be a time limit to take moon tea, that after a certain time has gone, it is too late to do an abortion. 

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1. Moon Tea has a definite stigma in Westerosi society, though levels of approval/condemnation probably vary significantly from one group to the next. The first part of your question is one that is equally flexible in interpretation. Abortion is an inalienable right to some groups of people, and completely unacceptable to others. "Our world" isn't specific enough for that to be answered without a lot of qualifiers. Since the overall social structure in Westeros is supposed to be vaguely medieval, and the "worth" of women is largely dictated by their marriageability and fecundity in that setting, the practical use of a substance that could prevent or end an unwanted pregnancy would be appealing. Especially if it would allow someone to pass a young woman off as a virgin instead of the mother of one or more low-born bastards. However, it's worth noting that the most famous use of Moon Tea within the story completely subverts this: Lysa wasn't being passed of as a "unspoiled" to Jon Arryn. Jon knew that she'd been pregnant prior to their marriage, and actually may have been more inclined to marry her because she had successfully conceived at least once. The issue here wasn't the woman's perceived condition (especially since it seems clear that everyone for miles around knew that Lysa had been pregnant*, and it couldn't be hidden), but the unwanted association with the Baelish clan. The child served no viable political purpose at that time, and Hoster had the means and power to enforce his choice on his daughter. His resulting anguish over the following years seems to be mainly due to the harm that Lysa sustained from the experience, mentally and physically, rather than regret over the loss of the pregnancy itself. So to answer the second part of your question, in at least one case, the presence of a bastard was deemed far less desirable than the use of Moon Tea. 

I have absolutely no memory of clergy speaking out about abortifacients one way or the other in asoiaf.** However, I assume that the stigma against bastards in Westeros is similar to the social view of children born out of wedlock in some Earth cultures. Until a few generations ago, children born to unwed mothers (whether the father was known or not), posed a "threat" to social order. They were physical representations of human lust and weakness, and the care and support of bastards frequently fell to the community as a whole. (Please note: I'm speaking primarily from a western European/American frame of reference here.) Therefore, it would make sense for followers of the Fot7 to encourage marriage, and discourage bastard births. I'm not aware of a pro-life movement in Westeros either, but I would be surprised if there was such a thing. The examples of Moon Tea usage in the story make it seem as though access wasn't all that hard to come by (any woodswitch or maester, or even random women with basic midwifery skills in King's Landing, since Jaime found one without difficulty when Cersei needed Moon Tea), but the actual use of the substance seems to be very low-profile. Since it is generally administered in the home, there's no Westerosi Planned Parenthood to picket. People seem far more pragmatic about it in the story, and the personhood of the unborn is far from an accepted fact. It's worth noting that, despite the anathema towards kinslaying in all forms, aborting ones own fetus doesn't seem to be considered kinslaying. But just to complicate things, Maelys Blackfyre was called a kinslayer for absorbing his own twin in utero, and Lysa refers to the successful abortion of her own fetus as "murder". So at least in some circumstances, the life of an unborn child crosses the line into true personhood 

 

2. The short answer is that, without knowing more about the specifics of how Moon Tea works and its limitations, we must assume that some women can't use it, don't want to use it, or have limited access to it, or that the dangers of using it far outweigh the benefits of terminating an unwanted pregnancy. (Also, to be fair, we have no idea how many bastards exist in the story proportional to the population.)

The long answer: Moon Tea seems to be widely used (or at least widely understood), and seems to be accessible to those who want it. However, it's not necessarily something that all women choose, even if they are carrying unwanted/unviable children, or bastards. Of the two examples you mentioned, Lollys' situation would make the most sense for Moon Tea treatment. My best guess for why she avoided it is a combination of her own ignorance, her mother Tanda's complete denial of the situation (trying to pass Lollys off as "sick" for months after the fact, for instance), and Lollys' own extreme fear of people and human contact following the rape. Even if Tanda had attempted to secure treatment for her, Lollys may not have been able to receive it due to her trauma. I suspect that the combination of a visiting maester/woodswitch/potion dealer along with some variety of pelvic exam would have been impossible under the circumstances. If Shae is to be believed, Lollys couldn't even clean herself properly for months after the rape. Tanda was more competent than Lollys, but not by much. She didn't have the moxie to stand up for her daughter's interests, but even if she had, there wasn't much to be gained from the effort. Tanda couldn't marry Lollys off even before she was brutalized and impregnated with a bastard.

In contrast, the Florents didn't have much to gain by eliminating Delena's pregnancy. She was impregnated by the popular and prosperous King of Westeros, who was willing to acknowledge the child, and who went on to ensure that the boy had plenty of gifts and opportunities as he grew. Delena made a good marriage, and had two other children with her spouse. Edric created a rift in the Baratheon family due to the disrespect Robert showed to his brother in the way the child was conceived, but Edric himself was basically a golden ticket. The Florents apparently had every reason to believe that Robert would acknowledge Edric since they pressed the issue and made a point of establishing Delena's maidenhood before the pregnancy. This may speak to Robert's nature and their familiarity with it, since there hasn't been a consistent manner that royal bastards were treated historically. However, overall, it's better to be a royal bastard than any other kind. So in the case of this example, there simply was no incentive for Delena to abort the pregnancy. As a young woman in the power of her family in a patriarchal society, one must assume that her branch of the Florent family felt that this was the best course of action, whether Delena did or not.

The same could be argued for Ramsay Bolton's mother, in a sense. She may have had access to Moon Tea, but chose to keep the child in the hopes of securing favors from Roose later.  This would have been an insane gamble due to the brutal way that he treated her and her husband both, but Ramsay's mother doesn't seem to have been a very logical person. (Possible due to what Roose did to her.) I tend to believe that in this case, it's likely that she didn't realize she was pregnant in enough time to make use of Moon Tea safely. She'd not yet consummated her marriage when Roose raped her. It's entirely possible that the symptoms of pregnancy were masked by the physical effects of the rape coupled with her grief over the loss of her husband and the trauma sustained during the attack.

Most chemically induced abortions (non-surgical) can not be reliably completed after about the 12-week mark with the modern abortion pill. After that, the likelihood of requiring some more invasive procedure increases dramatically. 12 weeks is well before the time that an expectant woman may first feel "quickening", which was historically the first true "proof" of pregnancy in past societies. Most women do not feel quickening until 16-20 weeks into a pregnancy. It's impossible to know if a single type of medical treatment in modern western society is even comparable to a fictional herbal abortifacient in GRRM's world, but I have no other ideas on how to establish a baseline on efficacy of Moon Tea. However, it seems to have been used primarily by women in the story who were in very early stages of pregnancy, or who were hoping to prevent a pregnancy that hadn't occurred, much like our modern abortion pill and "Plan B". Consequently, it's possible that Westerosi women who don't suspect they are pregnant early enough to take Moon Tea have no choice but to keep the pregnancy, or risk a very unsafe Moon Tea-activated partial-birth abortion. Lysa may be an example of a person who used it too late in the pregnancy for safety. She was insistent that her baby was a "him", and even her father (in his deathbed ramblings to Cat) cycles through a few rounds of contrasting Lysa's future true-born sons with the aborted fetus. If she was positive that her fetus was a male, then she probably saw its genitalia. That indicates a fetus that was at least 12-16 weeks into gestation, at a bare minimum. The text suggests that Petyr was too injured to be moved for a while after the duel, and then was shipped off to the Fingers BEFORE Lysa told Hoster about the baby, so there is definitely time for her to carry to 16 weeks (or beyond) before publicly acknowledging her pregnancy. If she took Moon Tea at an advanced state of pregnancy, it would have been a much more difficult process. Whatever the case, it seems clear that the abortion harmed her fertility, and that the mere sight of the blood and gore from Lysa's procedure haunted Hoster Tully (a veteran of several battles, and someone who had witnessed the death of his first wife due to a difficult childbirth) for the rest of his life.

 

*Thanks to another poster (Lady Dacey), I reconsidered my belief on this. On second thought, there's far more evidence that it remained a pretty well-kept secret. 

**Lady Dacey mentioned the High Sparrow/High Septon quote from AFFC. He clearly considers the use of Moon Tea during pregnancy to be a form of murder, which is probably in line with the most extreme interpretation of Fot7 beliefs. 

Also, changed "months" to "weeks" on Lysa's pregnancy speculation. She's not an elephant. :)

Edited by Shiera Blackwood

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Oh, these are important questions that must indeed be addressed. In a way, moon tea is actually a plothole. It's a very convenient plot device that Martin came up with, but it's problematic because the image of it is very inconsistent. 

To you first questio, I absolutely agree with Shiera Blackwood: 

1 hour ago, Shiera Blackwood said:

Abortion is an inalienable right to some groups of people, and completely unacceptable to others. "Our world" isn't specific enough for that to be answered without a lot of qualifiers.

Moral attitude towards abortion probably also varies around the seven kingdoms.

1 hour ago, Shiera Blackwood said:

it seems clear that everyone for miles around knew that Lysa had been pregnant, and it couldn't be hidden

Where is that coming from? Not even Catelyn, who was living together with Lysa, realized her sister was pregnant... Arryn knew she could conceive because Hoster wanted him to know it. I thought it was pretty clear that he avoided other people knowing about his daughter having been pregnant. 

1 hour ago, Shiera Blackwood said:

The examples of Moon Tea usage in the story make it seem as though access wasn't all that hard to come by (any woodswitch or maester, or even random women with basic midwifery skills in King's Landing, since Jaime found one without difficulty when Cersei needed Moon Tea), but the actual use of the substance seems to be very low-profile.

Agree

1 hour ago, Shiera Blackwood said:

I have absolutely no memory of clergy speaking out about abortifacients one way or the other in asoiaf.

This is the High Septon about Margeary: 

"She is not. Holy septas have examined her, and testify that her maidenhead is broken. She has drunk of moon tea, to murder the fruit of her fornications in her womb. An anointed knight has sworn upon his sword to having carnal knowledge of her and two of her three cousins. Others have lain with her as well, he says, and names many names of men both great and humble."

I say moon tea is a plot device because it's referenced as an abortificent (by Cersei and Lysa and Hoster) as well as an mean to prevent a pregnancy akin to the regular pill (by Arianne) and to the morning after pill (by Asha). In fact, no substance known to us, natural or synthetic, can be used interchangeably in all three situations. Lysa had a provoked an abortion with moon tea, Arianne tells Arys Oakhaert "I've drunk my moon tea" before they have sex, to assure him there's no fear of making a bastard, and Asha brews and drinks moon tea after she has had sex. That's just impossible in real life... 

Edited by Lady Dacey

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On 1/26/2018 at 2:58 AM, EvanSol919 said:

Moon tea is used to prevent or abort pregnancies and both maesters and woods witches know how to make it, even north of the Wall. So I have two questions -

1. Is it more acceptable for women in Westeros to use moon tea than it is for a woman in our world to have an abortion? Hoster Tully gave moon tea to Lysa. Was that preferably to his daughter giving birth to a bastard fathered by a very minor noble? The Faith damns bastards, so would the clergy support moon tea? Or is there a pro-life movement in Westeros?

2. Why are there so many bastards if moon tea were so widely available? For example, why wasn't Lollys Stokeworth or Delena Florent (mother of Edric Storm) or Ramsay's mother given moon tea?

The Faith damns bastards, but probably damns Moon Tea too. I'm sure their preference is to not have intimate relations before marriage period.

2. Not every mother wants to abort. Children fathered by the likes of Robert or Roose are not treated badly in Westeros even if they're bastards, after all.

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2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

You might find the discussion in this thread interesting, or not. 

I do! Thank you.

 

7 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

Where is that coming from? Not even Catelyn, who was living together with Lysa, realized her sister was pregnant... Arryn knew she could conceive because Hoster wanted him to know it. I thought it was pretty clear that he avoided other people knowing about his daughter having been pregnant. 

You're right; I spoke about it in a hyperbolic way. There isn't any textual indication that every man, woman, and child knew, especially considering that apparently no word ever reached Cat. My opinion has been mainly based on the fact that Jon knew, seemingly before he accepted Hoster's offer of her hand. Jon Arryn could have been told privately that she was "soiled" ahead of time, but Lysa's hysteria in describing the way that she told her father the news always gave me the impression of a loud family row in a semi-public manner. The pregnancy announcement is described in such a way as to imply calculation (waiting until Petyr was sent away while the pregnancy progressed, then telling her father in the hopes that he'd be forced to let her marry Petyr), and it doesn't seem to have been a very private matter in the household. Several people had to have known, since Lysa refers to a "they" other than her father when describing the "murder" of the fetus, and the Riverrun maester was directly involved as well. 

However, in the course of re-thinking it, I agree that there isn't any evidence at all that it was widely known. Certainly, more than a few people had to have known most or all of the circumstances of her first pregnancy, but that doesn't mean that the story spread. I think I got the impression that it was public knowledge the first time I read about it, and just never considered it further. Jon Arryn was a stoic, proud man. He would have never allowed Petyr to enjoy his patronage and favors if he'd known the full truth, so it seems likely that the "whom" of the first pregnancy was a very well-kept secret. 

7 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

This is the High Septon about Margeary: 

"She is not. Holy septas have examined her, and testify that her maidenhead is broken. She has drunk of moon tea, to murder the fruit of her fornications in her womb. An anointed knight has sworn upon his sword to having carnal knowledge of her and two of her three cousins. Others have lain with her as well, he says, and names many names of men both great and humble."

I just read AFFC again recently, and I completely forgot about this line! That makes sense, and is completely in keeping with the Fot7's position as a Vatican proxy in the story.

7 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

I say moon tea is a plot device because it's referenced as an abortificent (by Cersei and Lysa and Hoster) as well as an mean to prevent a pregnancy akin to the regular pill (by Arianne) and to the morning after pill (by Asha). In fact, no substance known to us, natural or synthetic, can be used interchangeably in all three situations. Lysa had a provoked an abortion with moon tea, Arianne tells Arys Oakhaert "I've drunk my moon tea" before they have sex, to assure him there's no fear of making a bastard, and Asha brews and drinks moon tea after she has had sex. That's just impossible in real life... 

I agree. I think modern "Plan B", and chemical abortion ("abortion pill"), and very unreliable herbal abortifacients (like pennyroyal, wormwort, evening primrose, etc.) are blended to form the asoiaf Moon Tea. 

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On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 8:58 PM, EvanSol919 said:

Moon tea is used to prevent or abort pregnancies and both maesters and woods witches know how to make it, even north of the Wall. So I have two questions -

1. Is it more acceptable for women in Westeros to use moon tea than it is for a woman in our world to have an abortion? Hoster Tully gave moon tea to Lysa. Was that preferably to his daughter giving birth to a bastard fathered by a very minor noble? The Faith damns bastards, so would the clergy support moon tea? Or is there a pro-life movement in Westeros?

2. Why are there so many bastards if moon tea were so widely available? For example, why wasn't Lollys Stokeworth or Delena Florent (mother of Edric Storm) or Ramsay's mother given moon tea?

My understanding is that moon tea prevents pregnancy while tansy produces a miscarriage.

I doubt moon tea is widely used because in most cases noble maidens abstain from sex before marriage and are eager to bear children for their lord husbands afterward. Cases like Lysa Tully's are probably more common than thought, though, because they would naturally be hushed up.

Commoners probably would not have ready access to moon tea as there are not a lot of woods witches south of the wall and maesters would no doubt charge a pretty penny for it. The Stokeworths seem dim enough that they probably don't even know it exists.

I don't think the Faith damns bastards. Indeed, many bastards are knighted in the name of the Seven, and some are even legitimized to inherit lands and titles. Bastards are believed to be wanton and untrustworthy, but I don't think this leads the Faith to call for their damnation. Four bastard daughters of Aegon IV became septas, so it stands to reason that male bastards can become septons. In any event, the Faith would always promote the propagation of human life, preferably within the bonds of marriage. So anything that would interfere with conception or terminate a pregnancy would therefore be sinful.

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11 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

My understanding is that moon tea prevents pregnancy while tansy produces a miscarriage.

I don't think there is a difference. I think tansy is the active ingredient in moon tea. 

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5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I don't think there is a difference. I think tansy is the active ingredient in moon tea. 

Maybe. My understanding was that if you want to prevent pregnancy, you drink moon tea with just the mint, wormwood, honey and pennyroyal. If you add tansy to it, it becomes tansy tea and will cause a miscarriage. But I can't point to any text that actually confirms this.

In the real world, high doses of tansy were believed to induce abortions in the Middle Ages, although low doses were said to improve the chances of conception and reduce the risk of miscarriage. Go figure.

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Her nostrils flared. "The riverlands are full of maids you've pleased, all drinking tansy tea. You'd think a man as old as you would know to spill his seed on their bellies. Men will be calling you Tom Sevensons before much longer."

Arya IV, SoS

Tansy is an ingredient in Moon Tea, but Moon Tea and Tansy Tea are two names for the same thing. 

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I always read Moon Tea as being a mixture, probably variable depending on availability, of herbs - of which I could list*, but will not, although GRRM has named most of the ones that work in 'our world'.

Although they can be described as 'abortefacients' this is a little simplistic or misleading. There's certainly one herb mentioned which can cause late miscarriages, but generally the better way to think of Moon Tea is as 'aiding menstruation' - which is why some characters mention having the Tea 'before the act'. I think what they are actually doing, is taking the tea regularly (ie monthly, 'by the Moon') to ensure regular menstruation - it's not actually contraceptive, it merely prevents (or dislodges) implantation. I think this might even be the intended method of use, hence the very name, although 'morning after' use does seem to occur in the story too. Of course, regular use is likely to be more effective, because of all the built up experience of both treatment and 'patient', whilst a one-off attempt  after the horse has bolted will not benefit from that.

However, I can quite understand why some women would choose not to use Moon Tea. For one, it can cause more severe cramping than normal; it can be thought 'well, there's no need', then oooops; and of course people may decide it's in the lap of the gods, and take whatever comes, one way or the other. And as others have pointed out, there is a variety of moral and religious influences which will bear on individuals.

In Lollys' case, I imagine the physical trauma she had already suffered might have made it dangerous to use (I'll bow to Lady D's knowledge on that) over and above carrying to full term with the possibility of improved health after a few months' convalescence.

There's another issue at work, too, in that as a herbal medicine, it will be highly variable in its potency depending on the quality of the ingredients, making it much more difficult to gauge proper dosing to ensure effectiveness without excessive toxicity (I doubt many maesters/woodwitches/whoever bother to titrate every batch for efficacy). Don't forget, the main difference between medicine and poison is the dosage.

 

* Disclosure: trained as a pharmacist...

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So how much moon tea needs to be taken to seriously hamper any attempts to conceive a child, i.e. Lysa, with the offspring that survive past childbirth being mentally and physically stunted?

Edited by Angel Eyes

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On 3/9/2018 at 0:45 AM, Angel Eyes said:

So how much moon tea needs to be taken to seriously hamper any attempts to conceive a child, i.e. Lysa, with the offspring that survive past childbirth being mentally and physically stunted?

If you mean permanently, then it's anyone's guess. As I mentioned above, there are so many variables at play. I suppose it could be possible to take a dose large enough to permanently damage the uterus due to the intensity of the contractions, but honestly if it goes that far there's probably more chance of a fatal haemorrhage, not to mention other toxic effects of the herbs beyond the reproductive system, which again may or may not be fatal.

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Its supposed to be more preventative than a device for abortion; we see it mess up someones uterus when used for abortions of term

Edited by Leonardo

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Really interesting discussion, but I think you're mistaken in taking people too literally.
We don't know an authentic recipe for "moon tea" as taught at the citadel, nor a scientific treatise on its use and effects. All we have is people claiming to be given "moon tea" by their maesters. I would strongly suspect it being a generic term for every medicine that prevents or aborts pregnancy - I would not think "milk of the poppy" is always opium, either...
People in Westeros associate the moon with female fertility and in need for anything related to birth control, would ask their maester or village witch for "moon tea to the purpose of xyz". Nobody would correct them, those who know have an interest in keeping their knowledge secret.
It's the same in our world: when reading a medieval text you must not expect the strict terminology of 21st Century scientific literature. In Westeros the situation is even exacerbated by the fact that there's only one university for a whole continent (let's hope there are more citadels in Essos at least). Most people rely on unschooled "medecine men", witches, sage femmes.... who will use their own recipes that they were taught in oral form, or might even have discovered on their own. A compendium of "The Moon Teas of Westeros" would probably included hundreds of different recipes, with very different effects indeed.
Also think of traditional kitchen recipes that vary significantly from region to region, often with hardly any similarities left beyond a common name (and maybe one or two ingredients).

Edited by Umber Jack

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On 1/26/2018 at 7:28 AM, EvanSol919 said:

1. Is it more acceptable for women in Westeros to use moon tea than it is for a woman in our world to have an abortion? Hoster Tully gave moon tea to Lysa. Was that preferably to his daughter giving birth to a bastard fathered by a very minor noble? The Faith damns bastards, so would the clergy support moon tea? Or is there a pro-life movement in Westeros?

No one says anyone has a "right" to abortion, as it is the case in many parts of the real world. But when certain circumstances present themselves, they do it anyway, as in the case of Lysa Tully. A noble family didn't want a pregnant, unmarried daughter, and they quickly took care of the situation. Lysa is given moon tea and quickly married off to some old man. Later she has trouble conceiving, but this could very well be a fertility issue with Jon Arryn rather than Lysa herself. 

In the past (and even in socially conservative parts of the world today), people got abortions or get rid of newborns when it's not convenient to have a baby. But that doesn't mean anyone is "pro choice." Everyone is "pro life" in the sense that they don't think getting abortions or abandoning newborns is okay. But that's exactly what people end up doing when facing the possibility of an unwanted child regardless of their political/moral beliefs. Fiction reflects reality. 

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Do not take Moon Tea if you are pregnant, planning to become pregnant or are not pregnant. Do not mix Moon Tea with aspirin, Tylenol, certain laxatives, blood thinners, anti-coagulants, corticosteroids, narcotics or alcohol. Do not take if you are under the age of nine or between the ages of 9 and 90. Do not take if you are depressed, have a history of depression, psychotic or have a history of psychosis or are prone to hair loss, bleeding, stomach upset, rickets, hallucinations, morbid obesity, wasting disease or any of the following sexually transmitted diseases: gonorrhea, chlamydia, herpes, genital warts, or any other STD. May cause nervousness, calmness, sleeplessness, drowsiness, rage, happiness, fear, contentment and a third hand to sprout from the middle of your forehead. Take only by prescription. Take only on the advice of a maester, or a woods witch if you can find one. See our full ad in Westeros Sluts Magazine.

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