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Angel Eyes

If Robert’s Rebellion was built on a lie,

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Only if you think they should have told Jon Arryn that he shouldn't rebel and should instead let them get executed by Aerys just because Aerys felt like it, because being loyal to their king is the most important thing in the world and far outweighs such things as common sense, justice, your own life or the lives of your family members, and that Aerys, as a king and superior being, should be allowed to torture and kill anyone he wants, without explanation.

So, if you believe that would have been proper conduct, then I guess you can see Ned and Robert as villains in the Rebellion.

 

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The war didn't start over the Mad King's excesses, but over Lyanna's "abduction" - however ending the Mad King's reign was still considered to be the greatest outcome of the war; unless I'm really confused about some of the details, the abduction was just the last straw after a prolonged time of everyone wanting him gone asap.

So no; certainly nowhere near Menelaos/Agamemnon bad under any circumstances.

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3 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

The war didn't start over the Mad King's excesses, but over Lyanna's "abduction" 

No, it didn't.

Try to at least get the basic facts right.

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1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

No, it didn't.

Try to at least get the basic facts right.

Well, I did admit I wasn't certain about that particular backstory, so maybe.

Tbf you get a lot of facts wrong as well ;)

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2 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Only if you think they should have told Jon Arryn that he shouldn't rebel and should instead let them get executed by Aerys just because Aerys felt like it, because being loyal to their king is the most important thing in the world and far outweighs such things as common sense, justice, your own life or the lives of your family members, and that Aerys, as a king and superior being, should be allowed to torture and kill anyone he wants, without explanation.

So, if you believe that would have been proper conduct, then I guess you can see Ned and Robert as villains in the Rebellion.

 

Well, I don’t see them as the villains. I’m asking if D&D want us to believe that.

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53 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

Well, I did admit I wasn't certain about that particular backstory, so maybe.

Tbf you get a lot of facts wrong as well ;)

What matters is that you believe that, if it makes you feel better. :)

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35 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, I don’t see them as the villains. I’m asking if D&D want us to believe that.

I don't think they have thought it through. 

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5 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

I don't think they have thought it through. 

I'm surprised at them. They certainly thought about sending Sansa to Ramsay three years before it happened.

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I almost wish that it had been Daenerys delivering that line LOL. Can you imagine the fanbase's reaction if rather than apologizing for her father's crimes she instead claimed that Robert's Rebellion was built on a lie?  She would've been torn to shreds!  But since the context in which it is said gives Jon the best claim to the throne, people just seem to accept it even though it's such a preposterous statement.

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Robert and Ned didn't know it was based on a lie.  They were threatened by the king.  Do you think they should submit to the king and die (that's what Rickard did).  They did nothing to warrant that behavior.  War is bad, but Aerys DID abuse his power and should definitely not rule.

Lyanna  and Rhaegars actions is a whole different story.  They willingly left home to run off together.  For love.  They didn't care that their actions hurt an innocent woman (Elia) and her children.  They didn't care or think how their actions would hurt their family or the realm.  They were selfish. They were secretive.  They thought they were SO important to think the prophecy (if they believed in it) was all about them.  Their actions helped cause RR.

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I was all set to write an epic rebuttal. But everyone agrees with me so there's no need!! I think that's the first time that's ever happened to me. And within the context of this conversation, I have had to defend Robert's Rebellion against die hard Jon Snow fanatics that latch on to Bran's season 7 quote to justify their favorite character having a claim to the throne. Robert's Rebellion was Just. That line makes no sense, especially coming from a supposedly all-seeing omnipotent character. I guess he just chooses what he wants to see and omits what he doesn't? Or maybe he just hasn't gotten to that part of history yet? Like he's on part 218 of 300 in the Westeros History Channel exclusive series. It was all kinds of dumb.

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12 hours ago, Lord Stannis-The True King said:

I was all set to write an epic rebuttal. But everyone agrees with me so there's no need!! I think that's the first time that's ever happened to me. And within the context of this conversation, I have had to defend Robert's Rebellion against die hard Jon Snow fanatics that latch on to Bran's season 7 quote to justify their favorite character having a claim to the throne. Robert's Rebellion was Just. That line makes no sense, especially coming from a supposedly all-seeing omnipotent character. I guess he just chooses what he wants to see and omits what he doesn't? Or maybe he just hasn't gotten to that part of history yet? Like he's on part 218 of 300 in the Westeros History Channel exclusive series. It was all kinds of dumb.

I agree with you, to be honest. The entire point of this thread is to show that that line is wrong.

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Television shows and movies unfortunately have to contract, they just can't have the complexity of novels.  So it was too difficult to make the rebellion about Aerys demanding that Jon Arryn surrender Robert and Ned, so they just make it about Robert getting vengeance on Rhaegar for abducting and raping Lyanna.  In the show, that *is* what the rebellion was about.  A small drop originally eventually creates large ripples, and this sort of thing happens after several years.  Robert and Ned are not villains because they acted in good faith at the time, believing that they were right.  It still doesn't mitigate Aerys' crimes.

On a side note Lord Stannis, I do think it is quite amusing how if you ask Google "Who is the one true king?" with no context, the answer is still Stannis!

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1 hour ago, Euron's Mom said:

On a side note Lord Stannis, I do think it is quite amusing how if you ask Google "Who is the one true king?" with no context, the answer is still Stannis!

Edric Storm if he could back his claim. It would be far more easier for the show to not explore the Rhaegar + Lyanna idea and instead settle for Robert + Lyanna if the consequences were too complex.

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On 1/27/2018 at 5:11 AM, Annara Snow said:

No, it didn't.

Try to at least get the basic facts right.

I mean it kinda did. Brandon went to King’s Landing on the conceit that Rheagar kidnapped his sister which put everything in motion. If not for the idea that Rheagar kidnapped Lyanna the war doesn’t happen. 

Several other things happened to officially start the war, but the snowball started with that.

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Even if Lyanna went willingly, it would have been without Rickard's permission.  Women didn't have the right to choose their own fate.

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On 3/15/2018 at 8:25 PM, Lord Stannis-The True King said:

I was all set to write an epic rebuttal. But everyone agrees with me so there's no need!! I think that's the first time that's ever happened to me. And within the context of this conversation, I have had to defend Robert's Rebellion against die hard Jon Snow fanatics that latch on to Bran's season 7 quote to justify their favorite character having a claim to the throne. Robert's Rebellion was Just. That line makes no sense, especially coming from a supposedly all-seeing omnipotent character. I guess he just chooses what he wants to see and omits what he doesn't? Or maybe he just hasn't gotten to that part of history yet? Like he's on part 218 of 300 in the Westeros History Channel exclusive series. It was all kinds of dumb.

I wouldn't mind reading an epic rebuttal to be honest. 

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