What’s under His many faces?

[Lady Dacey]

Every form of organized society known has developed religious beliefs – from anmism to the monotheist religions, there are countless ways to understand ‘god’. Modern theologists even propose the secular reliance on science and philosophy as the beholders of all answers to the questions of men is as much of a faith as any religion. One of the things I love about GRRM’s work is his willingness to write religion interplaying with history much like we see in the real world. It’s complex.

Here I want to explore the religious beliefs of the worshippers of the Many-Faced God. This is the first installment of what I hope will be a series of threads to dive deep in the religious world of Planetos. I’m looking for your help to dig for symbolism, parallels and connections that can be established within the rich material Martin has provided us.

Many thanks to @Curled Finger without whom this thread would never have come alive. The encouragement provided was of great value. Now let's get book-clubish about it! 

The God

We are introduced to the faceless men during a small council meeting early in AGOT. We understand they are a guild of assassins one could hire for an exhorbitant price. Throughout the books we learn more about them, eventually finding out they are actually a religious order. The World of Ice and Fire says:

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No discussion of Braavos would be complete without a mention of the Faceless Men. Shrouded in mystery and rumor, this secretive society of assassins is said to be older than Braavos itself, with roots that go back to Valyria at the height of its glory. Little is known for certain about these killers, however.

When Arya Stark finds herself utterly devasted and alone, without of hope of reuniting her family again, out of money and out of opitions, she resorts to the small iron coin Jaqen H’ghar had given her when she said she’d like to learn how to change her face. After she gives the coin to a bravosi and recites the words valar murghulis, she is given a cabin and taken across the Narrow Sea, her destiny unknown to her until she is eventually dropped by the stepps of the House of Black and White.

We come to learn that the House of Black and White is the temple of the Faceless Men. Even with a POV character inside their temple, though, we barely begin to grasp the their purpose. Their motivation, rules and beliefs aren’t clear at this point, and are subject to many suppositions and theories. What do we know about the Faceless Men? We know they worship the god of death, whom they call the Many-Faced God:

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"The Moonsingers led us to this place of refuge, where the dragons of Valyria could not find us," Denyo said. "Theirs is the greatest temple. We esteem the Father of Waters as well, but his house is built anew whenever he takes his bride. The rest of the gods dwell together on an isle in the center of the city. That is where you will find the . . . the Many-Faced God."

Later:

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"What place is this?" she asked him. 

"A place of peace." His voice was gentle. "You are safe here. This is the House of Black and White, my child. Though you are young to seek the favor of the Many-Faced God." 

The use of capital letters and the exact same name by both Denyo and priest make me think this is actually the name this deity goes by. 

This conversation continues:

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"Is he like the southron god, the one with seven faces?"

"Seven? No. He has faces beyond count, little one, as many faces as there are stars in the sky. In Braavos, men worship as they will . . . but at the end of every road stands Him of Many Faces, waiting. He will be there for you one day, do not fear. You need not rush to his embrace.

The Kindly Man tells Arya about the slaves of Valyria who would pray for “an end to pain”: 

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"All gods have their instruments, men and women who serve them and help to work their will on earth. The slaves were not crying out to a hundred different gods, as it seemed, but to one god with a hundred different faces... and he was that god's instrument. That very night he chose the most wretched of the slaves, the one who had prayed most earnestly for release, and freed him from his bondage. The first gift had been given."

One interpretation of the explanation offered to Arya is that priests at the House of Black and White worship what they consider to be the god responsible for bringing death.  Although the slaves thought they were praying to different gods, the Kindly Man knows better.   The faceless men believe that death itself is a god, or the gift of an specific god, one and the same for all people independent of their belief.  This is a god seen differently by each culture or belief system; some see it as a deity, some see it as an aspect of one god, while by others it remains unacknowledged. Death doesn’t depend on faith though, as every life comes to an end. The faceless men rest assured the god of death is real. They believe He of Many Faces does exist. This is further confirmed by the Kindly Man:

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"All men must die. We are but death's instruments, not death himself."

The Kindly Man frequently says that the servents at the House of Black and White are instruments of the Many-Faced God, but here he states they are instruments of death, equating the two. This, together with the use of the pronoun “himself” following “death” make a clear image of what exactly the god the faceless men believe in and work for.  

His Gift

Every life ends sooner or later. All religions deal with that in one way or another. Initially, I was struck that it was deeply unfair that "the first faceless man" killed a slave who wished for "an end to pain".  Young as Arya's life is, an end to pain could mean many other things (but let's not get started on ideas of revolution). Rereading and maturing my thoughts, as well as taking into account a historical perspective, I've come to different conclusions. Suicide has been a form of non-violent protestation against enslavement for millennia. In 18th century Brazil the suicide rate between enslaved people was three times greater than that of free men. It was so pervasive that it became an economical problem and led to the recognition of a condition unique to the African slaves that it was named banzo, and described in health publications of that time as "a state of deep melancholy, nostalgia and longing, leading to loss of the will to work or live". Most religious systems around the world, today and in the past, hold life as sacred and condemn suicide. Hence, it makes sense that those slaves of old Valyria who prayed for death didn’t actually kill themselves. One could argue that slaves that didn't have strong religious beliefs would be willing to commit suicide if they saw death as a way out of misery; while a pious enslaved person would not dare such an act.  This is a deeply disturbing notion, killing another human being as an act of faith, a godly murder if you will. This is the service faceless men believe themselves to be providing.

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"Death is not the worst thing," the kindly man replied. "It is His gift to us, an end to want and pain. On the day that we are born the Many-Faced God sends each of us a dark angel to walk through life beside us. When our sins and our sufferings grow too great to be borne, the angel takes us by the hand to lead us to the nightlands, where the stars burn ever bright. Those who come to drink from the black cup are looking for their angels. If they are afraid, the candles soothe them"

Again we get a His with capital H.

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"The gift of the Many-Faced God takes myriad forms," the kindly man told her, "but here it is always gentle."

It’s clear that every death – gentle or not – is a gift from Him. It doesn’t matter what a person believes in, it doesn’t matter if this person sought the gift for herself in the black waters of temple, or found it in a battlefield, or on a sickbed, or anywhere else. It doesn’t matter if someone payed the price to have another someone killed by a faceless man. In the vision of His servants, all death hails from the Many-Faced God, and they give the gift for those who are marked. But if you pay for something, is it a gift?

I find it striking that Martin, who is a lover of all things grey and nuanced, actualy built a “black and white” institution. In terms of morality the temple of the faceless men is genuinely a House of Orange and Blue for it’s so distant from our standards it’s hard for us to comprehend, perhaps it's even inacessible. Religions in the books work to give characters motivation, frame of mind, raison d’être. They influence the world and hold great power – much more so in a world where magic is real. Where do you think the author wants to get when writing religion? What is conveyed to us through this particularly creepy religion many call “a death cult”? Let’s speculate a little about it?

[The Sunland Lord]

Religion requires a lot of money and people to enforce its beliefs. But it must provide the believer/enforcer with something in return.

If you want to recruit a young prospect such as Arya, you need to persuade her into it. If she sees the people receiving the Gift of mercy in the temple, she might see the good side of it: People want to be put down and be freed of their misery. This society provides them with it.

So this is how you plant the seed of sympathy in the young prospect. Why would she like to join, otherwise? She must learn first and foremost that this has a noble side to it.

Also, the way of recruitment has its scheme. Find someone with the desire and talent of killing, check him out, give him a chance to prove himself. Delete his own-self, becomes no one. So what do you have? A highly trained no-one assassin. If you're no one, then it's a lot of easier. If you have a name and a surname, than it's more difficult. "I am not the man who would do something like this". 

Arya, for example, has problems with killing. She cares what would her mother and brother think of her if they knew about the people she killed. But if she is no-one, there would be no problem. How can a person with no identity have remorse or a bit of hesitation? It's easier.

But with time, the prospect will learn what every adult learns sooner or later: It's mostly about money. Every organized religion needs it. 

This cult of assassins is not that much expensive without a reason. 

 

 

 

[Curled Finger]

Dang, Lady Dacey, Get Down!   Nice.   I always appreciate the valuable history lessons and real world analogies you offer up in your posts.  Here again you address a very serious modern problem that has been a very serious problem for as you say, millennia.   Well done.  Enough gushing, this is a great topic to chew on so let's get to it. 

I find it very interesting which characters seem to wander directly into the path of certain religions, Jon with R'hllor, Theon with the old gods and of course Arya with He of Many Faces.  I have to wonder what lessons are supposed to be learned.  The Many Faced God is, as you note, capitalized to indicate name and personal being.  What does this god do, precisely?  I don't know, but I do expect there are lessons about mercy as well as death in this god, specifically. 

2 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Religion requires a lot of money and people to enforce its beliefs. But it must provide the believer/enforcer with something in return.

But with time, the prospect will learn what every adult learns sooner or later: It's mostly about money. Every organized religion needs it. 

This cult of assassins is not that much expensive without a reason. 

Sunland Lord, it's good to keep running into you in so many places.   I chopped up your post to highlight an area we disagree.    Then again, you surprise me all the time, so perhaps I misunderstand.   I'm not sure what offerings are made to the 7 other than candles.   There are the token weirwood branches the Red God demands for er, saving the Wildlings as well as blood sacrifice.  The Faceless Man ask nothing of their walk in patrons.   The temple is set up pretty normally as far as I can tell, with altars and artistic renderings of many gods.  The Faceless Men are tied to the Iron Bank and have access to lots of money.   I noticed Lady Dacey said "exorbitant price", not a ton of money.   I'm thinking specifically of the Waif here.   She tells how her step mother sought to kill her in order to take her inheritance through her own daughter.   We know the stepmother and daughter are removed from The Waif's life and the Waif has dedicated her life to study and service at the House of Black and White.   She did not end up with her father's wealth nor a life she may have envisioned.   Instead, perhaps she was given a place to serve, which seems to be a theme with the Faceless Men.  I find that really interesting considering they were initially slaves.   For all it's worth Ser.   

Back to He of Many Faces...I'll be honest, Lady, I get the whole death cult idea and can't find anything wrong with it.  However, I only became aware of that idea reading here in the forum, as the Faceless Men seemed to be champions of the underdogs.  Remember the crooked insurance man Arya was supposed to take out?  He rigged his insurance schemes and ripped off his customers.   Is there a hint in the backstory the Kindly Man tells Arya about the captain with a wife and children who was swindled--I think the insurance man didn't pay up or lied about a policy the captain took out.   What says it wasn't the poor wife who asked for the Faceless Men's intercession with He of Many faces?  She's broke--what can she pay for this assassination?   

I'm sorry, you hit on a topic I really enjoy, Lady.  This is a wonderful maiden topic and I look forward to the discussion.    Again, really well done!  

[Lucius Lovejoy]

Hey @Lady Dacey, I had been looking forward to this thread.  The Faceless Men are the most troublesome part of the entire series to me... their methods/magic is a bit too sensational (it also annoys me that their process is both very mechanical and very magical, like it is sort of in between), their message is inconsistent (they bring the "gift" even to those who don't ask for it), and they don't have an obvious enough connection to the war for the iron throne or the war for dawn, while simultaneously taking a major character far far away from the action.  But worst of all, their faith is poorly explained and difficult to understand for the readers (or at least me).  You did a great job summarizing what we think we know about them, and yet I am still confused.  I had often thought that the Many Faced God is a monotheistic religion which believes that all other gods worshipped in planetos are varying interpretations of the same single entity, and thus that entity has dominion over all aspects of life, though for the Faceless Men the aspect they are solely focused on is death.  Reading on a mobile phone at the gym here, so I may have missed something, but it seems you are suggesting the Many Faced God is the god of death, which I imply to mean there are other gods of other things (perhaps even a god of tits and wine for Tyrion).  Do the faceless men recognize them?  Or if I am correct that they are monotheistic, what other purpose besides death and an end to pain does the Many Faced God have and how do the Faceless Men try to honor that purpose?  It just seems a bit... incomplete.  If they worship one god, and their order serves just one particular task for him, I still would expect them to have other religious observances, or for there to be followers outside of the guild of assassins.

As for GRRM's purpose in writing religions into the series, I think it is incredibly important because religion has been a great motivator (whether genuinely believed or used as a cover reason) for the actions of so many individuals influencing major events in the history of the real world, such that it would be noticeable if religion was absent.  I think he just wants the stories to be believable, and that suspension of disbelief would not be possible without the characters (who's thoughts and feelings we intimately get through the POVs) commenting on their motivators, their guilt, their understanding of the answers to "the big questions."  The problem is, and it may be because GRRM himself is not religious though he certainly seems to have a great understanding of religions, that the religions we are presented don't really have their moral teachings and reasons for them spelled out so well.  We understand the traditional observational practices of followers of the Seven, R'hllor, Old Gods, Drownded God, Dothraki Horse God, etc and we even know what most of them believe the after-life entails along with some of their prophecies for this world but we don't have a great understanding of their answers to the questions "why are we here?" and "how will we be judged?" and "what is the reward/punishment pending said judgment?"  We know kinslaying, violation of guest rights, and incest are bad for most people, that is about it.  But any form of punishment isn't really covered outside of a generic sense of "what goes around comes around."  I wish the religions were better spelled out in the series (I will not read the world book) but am satisfied enough with the fact that they exist.

I don't think I really answered any of your questions, but those are my speculative rambling thoughts.  I look forward to reading other posts in the thread.

[Curled Finger]

22 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Hey @Lady Dacey, I had been looking forward to this thread.  The Faceless Men are the most troublesome part of the entire series to me... their methods/magic is a bit too sensational (it also annoys me that their process is both very mechanical and very magical, like it is sort of in between), their message is inconsistent (they bring the "gift" even to those who don't ask for it), and they don't have an obvious enough connection to the war for the iron throne or the war for dawn, while simultaneously taking a major character far far away from the action.  But worst of all, their faith is poorly explained and difficult to understand for the readers (or at least me).  You did a great job summarizing what we think we know about them, and yet I am still confused.  I had often thought that the Many Faced God is a monotheistic religion which believes that all other gods worshipped in planetos are varying interpretations of the same single entity, and thus that entity has dominion over all aspects of life, though for the Faceless Men the aspect they are solely focused on is death.  Reading on a mobile phone at the gym here, so I may have missed something, but it seems you are suggesting the Many Faced God is the god of death, which I imply to mean there are other gods of other things (perhaps even a god of tits and wine for Tyrion).  Do the faceless men recognize them?  Or if I am correct that they are monotheistic, what other purpose besides death and an end to pain does the Many Faced God have and how do the Faceless Men try to honor that purpose?  It just seems a bit... incomplete.  If they worship one god, and their order serves just one particular task for him, I still would expect them to have other religious observances, or for there to be followers outside of the guild of assassins.

As for GRRM's purpose in writing religions into the series, I think it is incredibly important because religion has been a great motivator (whether genuinely believed or used as a cover reason) for the actions of so many individuals influencing major events in the history of the real world, such that it would be noticeable if religion was absent.  I think he just wants the stories to be believable, and that suspension of disbelief would not be possible without the characters (who's thoughts and feelings we intimately get through the POVs) commenting on their motivators, their guilt, their understanding of the answers to "the big questions."  The problem is, and it may be because GRRM himself is not religious though he certainly seems to have a great understanding of religions, that the religions we are presented don't really have their moral teachings and reasons for them spelled out so well.  We understand the traditional observational practices of followers of the Seven, R'hllor, Old Gods, Drownded God, Dothraki Horse God, etc and we even know what most of them believe the after-life entails along with some of their prophecies for this world but we don't have a great understanding of their answers to the questions "why are we here?" and "how will we be judged?" and "what is the reward/punishment pending said judgment?"  We know kinslaying, violation of guest rights, and incest are bad for most people, that is about it.  But any form of punishment isn't really covered outside of a generic sense of "what goes around comes around."  I wish the religions were better spelled out in the series (I will not read the world book) but am satisfied enough with the fact that they exist.

I don't think I really answered any of your questions, but those are my speculative rambling thoughts.  I look forward to reading other posts in the thread.

I think I had an epiphany when replying to Lady Dacey above.  I think the basic tenet of The Faceless Men or God of Many faces is Valar Dohaeris Valar Morghulis--all men must serve and all men must die.  For all that's worth, too.  

[Lady Dacey]

3 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Religion requires a lot of money and people to enforce its beliefs. But it must provide the believer/enforcer with something in return.

If you want to recruit a young prospect such as Arya, you need to persuade her into it. If she sees the people receiving the Gift of mercy in the temple, she might see the good side of it: People want to be put down and be freed of their misery. This society provides them with it.

So this is how you plant the seed of sympathy in the young prospect. Why would she like to join, otherwise? She must learn first and foremost that this has a noble side to it.

Also, the way of recruitment has its scheme. Find someone with the desire and talent of killing, check him out, give him a chance to prove himself. Delete his own-self, becomes no one. So what do you have? A highly trained no-one assassin. If you're no one, then it's a lot of easier. If you have a name and a surname, than it's more difficult. "I am not the man who would do something like this". 

Arya, for example, has problems with killing. She cares what would her mother and brother think of her if they knew about the people she killed. But if she is no-one, there would be no problem. How can a person with no identity have remorse or a bit of hesitation? It's easier.

But with time, the prospect will learn what every adult learns sooner or later: It's mostly about money. Every organized religion needs it. 

This cult of assassins is not that much expensive without a reason. 

 

 

 

Hey Sunland Lord, thanks for taking an interest in this thread. I'm not sure I understood you correctly... are you saying that their religious beliefs are just a cover up for recruiting assasins, and that they're in it for the money? I don't know. I believe it goes deeper than that. 

I agree that the point of stripping one of their self is very much about permitting a detached atitude towards death and killing. It's sort of taking the NW's vows to the next level: hold no lands, father no children, want to glory... and forget about your sense of self as well, for we serve a higher purpose.

I always enjoy finding people who like me see Arya as very compassionate. She is nowhere near the "psychopath" some people believe her to be. We agree on that. 

[Lady Dacey]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I find it very interesting which characters seem to wander directly into the path of certain religions, Jon with R'hllor, Theon with the old gods and of course Arya with He of Many Faces.  I have to wonder what lessons are supposed to be learned. 

As always, you bring new, exiting things to the table! This is an angle I hadn't thiught about and I believe there are meny parallels to be made. All of this characters refuse the religions they come across at some point, preferring to keep their own original beliefs - Jon sees the Old Gods in Ghost's eyes, Arya believes the Old Gods want her to keep needle, Theon chooses to honor the Drowned God when he goes back to Pyke. At the same time, the refused religion brings something each of them can't deny - for Jon is the ticket South to the wildlings and the possibility of performing a wedding, for Arya a roof above her head and guidance and new skills, and for Theon, well, his identity back. Amazing. 

 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Back to He of Many Faces...I'll be honest, Lady, I get the whole death cult idea and can't find anything wrong with it.  However, I only became aware of that idea reading here in the forum, as the Faceless Men seemed to be champions of the underdogs.  Remember the crooked insurance man Arya was supposed to take out?  He rigged his insurance schemes and ripped off his customers.   Is there a hint in the backstory the Kindly Man tells Arya about the captain with a wife and children who was swindled--I think the insurance man didn't pay up or lied about a policy the captain took out.   What says it wasn't the poor wife who asked for the Faceless Men's intercession with He of Many faces?  She's broke--what can she pay for this assassination?   

Uh, champions of the underdogs, it's a fine idea. But if they are indeed championing the poor and helpless, why insist on the whole "it's not our place to judge"? I'm sure we've been shown on page that it's not only money that can pay for the gift - other types of sacrifices are asked of the people who pray for death, as we see with the second faceless man for exemple. 

[Lady Dacey]

Lucius, I hope the thread doesn't disappoint! 

1 hour ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

But worst of all, their faith is poorly explained and difficult to understand for the readers (or at least me).  You did a great job summarizing what we think we know about them, and yet I am still confused.

Well, that's what we are here for. I don't think we have all the answers yet so we'll have to wait and see for the unraveling of their intentions and how the my connect with the rest of the plots, but I'm sure they are going to influence Westeros somehow, even if only through Arya (though I think it can go beyond that). 

 

1 hour ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

.  I had often thought that the Many Faced God is a monotheistic religion which believes that all other gods worshipped in planetos are varying interpretations of the same single entity, and thus that entity has dominion over all aspects of life, though for the Faceless Men the aspect they are solely focused on is death.  Reading on a mobile phone at the gym here, so I may have missed something, but it seems you are suggesting the Many Faced God is the god of death, which I imply to mean there are other gods of other things (perhaps even a god of tits and wine for Tyrion).  Do the faceless men recognize them? 

You are correct about my assumptions. I actually have a lot of material to back this up and it was originally going to be in the OP, but I decided against it in the end. I'll summarize: they worship death. I think we can safely say they are monotheistic for they don't worship any other god but the MFG - but the MFG is the god of death and death only, it's not a God from which life and death both hail, it's definetely not a god that has domain of all aspects of life. People go to the temple to die or to pray for death. To make it clear: what you propose is akin to the Seven Who Are One, right? Well, the Many Faced God embodies only the Stranger. The mother, maiden, crone, smith, warrior and father, these aspects of what the Faith of the Seven considers their one God are not part of Him of many faces. The Stranger is, because he is a representation of death. I think the faceless men recognize that other gods/deities might exist, but it's no concern of them: 

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The kindly man chuckled. "He is a man like any other, with light in him and darkness. It is not for you to judge him."

That gave her pause. "Have the gods judged him?" 

"Some gods, mayhaps. What are gods for if not to sit in judgment over men? The Many-Faced God does not weigh men's souls, however. He gives his gift to the best of men as he gives it to the worst. Elsewise the good would live forever."

 

[Lady Dacey]

1 hour ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

If they worship one god, and their order serves just one particular task for him, I still would expect them to have other religious observances, or for there to be followers outside of the guild of assassins.

Oh, but there are other observances! They pray daily

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They prayed at dawn before they broke their fast, kneeling around the still, black pool. Some days the kindly man led the prayer. Other days it was the waif. Arya only knew a few words of Braavosi, the ones that were the same in High Valyrian.

And there are people who go to the temple to pray (and not only to die):

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Worshipers came to the House of Black and White every day. Most came alone and sat alone; they lit candles at one altar or another, prayed beside the pool, and sometimes wept. A few drank from the black cup and went to sleep; more did not drink. There were no services, no songs, no paeans of praise to please the god. The temple was never full. From time to time, a worshiper would ask to see a priest, and the kindly man or the waif would take him down into the sanctum, but that did not happen often.

We don't know what the people who ask to see the priests want, but probably they want to ask for someone to be given the gift. Otherwise, it seems very appropriate that there are no services or songs, because each person that goes in the House of Black and White will whorship one His faces. A westerosi will pray in te common tongue for the Stranger, a qohoric will pray for the black goat, a lyseni will pray for the weeping woman - they are all praying for death though, each its own way. How could one service appease them all? I hope I have given you reasonable explanations about how I see them... 

I must add that we share an interest in learning more about the philosophy behind the belief systems we've been presented with. I don't want everything spelled out, it's just not GRRM's style, but I do believe we'll be getting some more information to piece together the puzzle. Metaphorically speaking, it's an old puzzle passed down for generations, so there are bound to be missing pieces, and maybe a few odd ones that don't fit anywhere, but I'm certain we will be able to tell the picture that's on it. 

[Curled Finger]

18 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

As always, you bring new, exiting things to the table! This is an angle I hadn't thiught about and I believe there are meny parallels to be made. All of this characters refuse the religions they come across at some point, preferring to keep their own original beliefs - Jon sees the Old Gods in Ghost's eyes, Arya believes the Old Gods want her to keep needle, Theon chooses to honor the Drowned God when he goes back to Pyke. At the same time, the refused religion brings something each of them can't deny - for Jon is the ticket South to the wildlings and the possibility of performing a wedding, for Arya a roof above her head and guidance and new skills, and for Theon, well, his identity back. Amazing. 

 

Uh, champions of the underdogs, it's a fine idea. But if they are indeed championing the poor and helpless, why insist on the whole "it's not our place to judge"? I'm sure we've been shown on page that it's not only money that can pay for the gift - other types of sacrifices are asked of the people who pray for death, as we see with the second faceless man for exemple. 

Ah well said, Lady.  It is really interesting to see these diverse and even spiritually opposed religions affect change in the most unlikely characters.   

I know it sounds weird.   The Faceless Men are a death cult.   Your opening post illustrates that beautifully.  The point I was trying to make is that idea never crossed my mind until I read it here in the forums.  I perceived them as always slaves, beholden to the idea of freedom while never experiencing its actualization.   All Men Must Serve.  Do you see any justice in this god's servant's actions?   I did.  I also saw kindness and shelter along with the final mercy of death to end suffering.  Kindly Man repeatedly chastises Arya for imposing her ideals, morals and feelings about people and their deeds.   It speaks to me that this god's priests and servants believe that this is a gift and that Arya needs to seek not revenge, but mercy toward the people she kills or wants to kill.   If she learns that lesson she may change.

The killing machines the Faceless Men turn out are not automatons.  We see they are permitted to pass on assignments due to association.  Granted that may be because the glamour of a new face or persona may not work so well on a person the hit man knows.  Still, it may be simple humanity and mercy for the hit man?   I don't think it's a precaution against being caught.  

Is that the message of the Faceless Men or their God of Many Faces?  Judgement is god's exclusively?   

[Varysblackfyre321]

I kinda feel (and I'm sure have touched upon this before), the many faced God to which the FM adhere is the great other being referenced repeatedly by the red-priests. Every god but Rh'lor is merely another pawn or mask. Though honestly it seems if there is a higher power it transcends beyond one religion. And I actually do wonder if the FM are simply putting an act of them being holy? Like, we know they charge a fortune for their services. Why not give the gift cheaply?

[Lady Dacey]

3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I kinda feel (and I'm sure have touched upon this before), the many faced God to which the FM adhere is the great other being referenced repeatedly by the red-priests. Every god but Rh'lor is merely another pawn or mask. Though honestly it seems if there is a higher power it transcends beyond one religion.

The red priests most definitely see Him of Many Faces and the great Other as one and the same. But alas, they see every god or deity that isn't R'hllor as a way for the great Other to sway people from the "path of light an de life and fire" they preach. Should we believe the red priests? Have they been enlightened and know the true truth? I'm not sure. I wouldn't... 

[Lady Dacey]

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

All Men Must Serve.  Do you see any justice in this god's servant's actions?   I did.

 It speaks to me that this god's priests and servants believe that this is a gift and that Arya needs to seek not revenge, but mercy toward the people she kills or wants to kill. 

Oh, I agree, I wholeheartedly agree. That's why I brought up banzo, and how regarding it changed my mind about "giving the gift" as a truly good thing as opposed to an unfair condemnation. Death as protest, death as a way out, death as defiance, death as punishment, death as mercy... the mercy angle is a theme through the books, and it deserves to be discussed seriously. 

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Judgement is god's exclusively?   

Isn't that the million dollar question? Of course we are always making judgment calls and choosing how to act based on what we perceive to be right or wrong. In real life I'm absolutely and completely against the notion of death penalty - to me the idea that one person (or even a group of people) could ever be able to decide if someone should live or die based on their past actions is just unreasonable. But well, I'm very anti-punitivism and pro-rehabilitation... I'm getting side tracked. The point is: Planetos is in a very different moment than the one we live in. Killing is very, very often justifiable and lawful. Ned Stark does it (poor Gared), Robb Stark does it, Ilyn Payne does it, Randyll Tarly does it (poor poxy whore, I wanted to strangle Tarly for sentancing her to die). What makes me uneasy is not knowing what goes into being marked to receive the gift by th FM. I hope you're right and they are trying to bring some sort of justice pr balance into the world - like killing the evil stepmother and the insurance man. I'm not yet convinced, though. I want to wait for the next book(s) before coming to a conclusion.

[PrettyPig]

4 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

Every life ends sooner or later. All religions deal with that in one way or another. Initially, I was struck that it was deeply unfair that "the first faceless man" killed a slave who wished for "an end to pain".  Young as Arya's life is, an end to pain could mean many other things (but let's not get started on ideas of revolution). Rereading and maturing my thoughts, as well as taking into account a historical perspective, I've come to different conclusions. Suicide has been a form of non-violent protestation against enslavement for millennia.

 

4 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

This is a deeply disturbing notion, killing another human being as an act of faith, a godly murder if you will. This is the service faceless men believe themselves to be providing.

 

19 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Back to He of Many Faces...I'll be honest, Lady, I get the whole death cult idea and can't find anything wrong with it.  However, I only became aware of that idea reading here in the forum, as the Faceless Men seemed to be champions of the underdogs.

This is fascinating, and if you'll pardon me from veering off the path of piety and onto that of psychology for a moment, my mind immediately goes to "angels of mercy"  - something that the KM alludes to in his comment about the Dark Angel walking beside us.   Now in the benevolent sense, this term applies to religious figures:  nuns, nurses, "God's messengers" and the like.   They tend the wounded, heal the sick, give care and compassion, and are often the last face a person sees before dying.  However, this moniker has shifted over into the world of criminal psychopathology and can also be applied to stone-cold serial killers who murder people under the guise of "compassion" - to relieve pain or suffering for that person - but I say 'guise' because at root there is no compassion to this whatsoever...it's an exercise in POWER over life and death, usually for the sadistic pleasure or satisfaction of the one delivering the "mercy".  It's telling that Arya will take on the persona of "Mercy" at some point during her tenure at the House of Black and White, because so far with Arya we have seen most of her kills be highly personal/for her own satisfaction or gain - and in fact, the one time she is ASKED to show compassion and deliver mercy (as the Hound lays dying near Saltpans), she refuses to give it, saying Sandor doesn't deserve her "mercy".

I'm also reminded in a way of Jim Jones - Jones set out to establish sort of an alternate anti-religion religion, and the goal of his People's Temple was to accept people from all walks of life, all colors and creeds, promote racial integration, etc.   Very much the same principle as the Faceless Men recognizing that the slaves of Valyria prayed to the same god, a god with a hundred faces; Jones referred to his mixed-race congregation as his "rainbow family".     Jones dreamed of creating his socialist Eden where he and his followers could hang out and fly their (mainly Jones') Marxist flag without repercussion, so eventually they all landed in Guyana at what we now know as Jonestown; the communist mantra of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" practiced there also seems to be fairly in line with the Faceless men's payment policies.   Jonestown was hardly a socialist Eden though, and was more like a prison - beatings, psychological abuse, midnight suicide drills, etc.   You know, like the Waif or the KM jumping on Arya and whaling her with sticks at random?  It also shouldn't be a surprise that Jones was grifting his followers as well, taking their offerings (read: life savings) and fattening up his own bank accounts - his followers were expected to give up all their "former life" possessions, be it millions in cash or passports, or maybe even a special sword named Needle if that was a thing.

What's most intriguing with Jones, though, is of course how he managed to persuade nearly a thousand people to give up their own lives, and what he told them as they did so.  Posting from Wikipedia to keep it brief:

Jones and several members argued that the group should commit "revolutionary suicide" by drinking cyanide-laced grape-flavored Flavor Aid. ...empty packets of grape Flavor Aid found on the scene show that this is what was used to mix the solution, along with a sedative.

When members apparently cried, Jones counseled, "Stop these hysterics. This is not the way for people who are socialists or communists to die. No way for us to die. We must die with some dignity."  Jones can be heard saying, "Don't be afraid to die", that death is "just stepping over into another plane" and that it's "a friend".   At the end of the tape, Jones concludes: "We didn't commit suicide; we committed an act of revolutionary suicide protesting the conditions of an inhumane world."

According to escaping Temple members, children were given the drink first and families were told to lie down together.    Mass suicide had been previously discussed in simulated events called "White Nights" on a regular basis.    During at least one such prior White Night, members drank liquid that Jones falsely told them was poison.

 

So we have Jones acting as God's Instrument telling his followers to drink from the grape pool (literally - Guyanese troops found a huge tub of the dark purple sacrament by the bodies, from which each member had dipped a cup), to embrace this "gift" that he is imparting on to them, to accept this gift and end their suffering....which some of them did willingly, but those who didn't?  Well, he had armed guards in place to force the "gift" upon them.   Ironically, God's Instrument didn't even drink his own Kool-Aid...he either shot himself or had a surviving member do it for him.     

In a nutshell, I think what GRRM is trying to tell us about the Faceless Men as a death cult religion is that it isn't really a religion at all - it's an organized sociopathic power trip masquerading as a religion.     They put forth these sacred and altruistic motives, but it really boils down to a bunch of people who get off on watching/making other people die.  They claim to worship the God of Many Faces (or family of Many Colors) but in reality they only worship the faceless Stranger known as the Self.

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

The red priests most definitely see Him of Many Faces and the great Other as one and the same. But alas, they see every god or deity that isn't R'hllor as a way for the great Other to sway people from the "path of light an de life and fire" they preach. Should we believe the red priests? Have they been enlightened and know the true truth? I'm not sure. I wouldn't... 

Meh, so far their priests have shown more validity to their religion than almost all others;at least their is proof there is an entity that they're worshipping.  But when compared to other groups such as warlocks, witches ect they don't seem that impressive.  Perhaps they're right? You knows but I doubt Martin would have the human-sacrificing religion be one the one to be proved right.

[Lady Dacey]

8 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

However, this moniker has shifted over into the world of criminal psychopathology and can also be applied to stone-cold serial killers who murder people under the guise of "compassion" - to relieve pain or suffering for that person - but I say 'guise' because at root there is no compassion to this whatsoever...it's an exercise in POWER over life and death, usually for the sadistic pleasure or satisfaction of the one delivering the "mercy". 

Oh, Pretty, thanks for bringing this up! I personally felt very similar to you about the faceless men - who are they to decide who deserves the death's mercy??? Why do they feel so entitled? In real life people who take matters of life and death in their own hands are convicted muderers - and those who consider themselves "angels" are seen as specially psychologically unsound. 

While the faceless men give me the creeps, I tried to take a rational approach when writing the OP. Personally, I feel really close to you about them. They make me uneasy and I want Arya to get away from them as soon as possible... but that's just a hunch. As I said before, I believe we have to wait for the next books to draw conclusions. One of the things that really has me thinking is the idea of being "marked": how does one get marked? How do they decide who lives and who dies? How do they communicate with their god? 

I do think the are pious, that they have deep religious beliefs that steer their actions. That doesn't mean they are excusable though. 

The thing is, in Planetos, killing is often acceptable. Ned killed Gared - that was more moving to me than the insurance man, for exemple. I fundamentally disagree with killing people who committed crimes - but I understand it is the norm in Westeros, so I don't judge Ned harshly for doing it, on the contrary, I admire him for how he acts about having to take a man's life in the context he's in. The difference, I think, is that we are privy to Ned's motives, so we feel we can judge his actions by his own standards, while we are still in the dark about the faceless men's code of ethics. We have tô clues though: we know how they feel about killing anyone but their target - why would they have such reserve if death is a gift that brings all men peace? It always comes back to the "marked" bit. Who marks men? Who is truly making the decisions? Is it just about paying the price they want? I don't know. 

[Lady Dacey]

8 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

the one time she is ASKED to show compassion and deliver mercy (as the Hound lays dying near Saltpans), she refuses to give it, saying Sandor doesn't deserve her "mercy".

Oh, I don't know if she made that judgment. We aren't shown her inner monologue when she doesn't kill Sandor. Some people believe she didn't do it to make him suffer, others take the stand that she couldn't bring herself to kill a man who she had come to sort of take as a father figure. I'm with the second group - when she looked in his eyes she didn't think he deserved to die, à la Ned, she couldn't swing the sword for him. Later, when she remembers him, she tells herself she should have given him the gift of mercy because she feels bad for his suffering. And we learn later that he survived the festered wound (right? right? the gravedigger is Sandor, I'm convinced).

This could bring us back to the discussion about people ever being able to take matters of life and death in their own hands: Sandor thought he was as good as dead, but he wasn't. He asked for Arya to kill him, yet he couldn't do it himself, even if he had the means to. And he survived. What's the lesson? The gods weren't done with him? 

Inside the House of Black and White the faceless men don't kill, they simply allow a peaceful environment for suicide. That is more of a parallel to euthanasia than to the "death angel" angle (provoked death made to look natural, without the knowledge of the sick patients or their families), because people make their own choice to go there willingly. 

[Lady Dacey]

5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

at least their is proof there is an entity that they're worshipping.

Is there? I haven't seen it. I mean they have power, but how do we know it comes from R'hllor? 

5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Perhaps they're right? You knows but I doubt Martin would have the human-sacrificing religion be one the one to be proved right.

It looks like the Old Gods also take human sacrifices. And they've been showed to have power in the books as well (Arya's conversation with the weirwood in Harrenhal comes to mind, and of course Bran's green dreams and visions). I don't think any religion will be "proven right" at all, at any point in the story. They all play a part though, both in the game of thrones (because organized religion holds political power, as its obvious in the dispute between the Faith and R'hllorism, or in Cersei insisting Tommen must be anointed and blessed by the High Septon) and in the great conflict against winter and de the Others (because they are an instrument men use to manipulate magic, a necessary resource against magical creatures).

[The Sunland Lord]

12 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Sunland Lord, it's good to keep running into you in so many places.   I chopped up your post to highlight an area we disagree.    Then again, you surprise me all the time, so perhaps I misunderstand.   I'm not sure what offerings are made to the 7 other than candles.   There are the token weirwood branches the Red God demands for er, saving the Wildlings as well as blood sacrifice.  The Faceless Man ask nothing of their walk in patrons.   The temple is set up pretty normally as far as I can tell, with altars and artistic renderings of many gods.  The Faceless Men are tied to the Iron Bank and have access to lots of money.   I noticed Lady Dacey said "exorbitant price", not a ton of money.   I'm thinking specifically of the Waif here.   She tells how her step mother sought to kill her in order to take her inheritance through her own daughter.   We know the stepmother and daughter are removed from The Waif's life and the Waif has dedicated her life to study and service at the House of Black and White.   She did not end up with her father's wealth nor a life she may have envisioned.   Instead, perhaps she was given a place to serve, which seems to be a theme with the Faceless Men.  I find that really interesting considering they were initially slaves.   For all it's worth Ser.   

Every religion which is organized, and must have people to enforce it, needs money for it. The Old Gods don't need money. They don't have priests, nor do they need buildings to be built or people they need to feed and clothe in those temples/septs. 

But the Many Faced God needs it. He has a temple, priests, enforcers (killers), and beds and food for these enforcers. It can't be self-sustained without money. So that's why I emphasized the "organized religion" thing. The story about how noble their work is, is a story as a means to an end. The story of its origins and meaning may be interesting, I'm not saying otherwise. But those serve the purpose to lure the prospects such is Arya. They can even invent a story. What they can't "invent" is money.

It must be earned.

10 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

Hey Sunland Lord, thanks for taking an interest in this thread. I'm not sure I understood you correctly... are you saying that their religious beliefs are just a cover up for recruiting assasins, and that they're in it for the money? I don't know. I believe it goes deeper than that. 

And thank you for opening an interesting thread to discuss.

I think that my answer to @Curled Fingerwould be a good answer to your question as well.

Quote

I agree that the point of stripping one of their self is very much about permitting a detached atitude towards death and killing. It's sort of taking the NW's vows to the next level: hold no lands, father no children, want to glory... and forget about your sense of self as well, for we serve a higher purpose.

I always enjoy finding people who like me see Arya as very compassionate. She is nowhere near the "psychopath" some people believe her to be. We agree on that. 

Indeed we agree. Arya has limited empathy and remorse, but not completely erased from her. And we learn multiple reasons for it as well. 

15 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

The Kindly Man tells Arya about the slaves of Valyria who would pray for “an end to pain”: 

One interpretation of the explanation offered to Arya is that priests at the House of Black and White worship what they consider to be the god responsible for bringing death.  Although the slaves thought they were praying to different gods, the Kindly Man knows better.   The faceless men believe that death itself is a god, or the gift of an specific god, one and the same for all people independent of their belief.  This is a god seen differently by each culture or belief system; some see it as a deity, some see it as an aspect of one god, while by others it remains unacknowledged. Death doesn’t depend on faith though, as every life comes to an end. The faceless men rest assured the god of death is real. They believe He of Many Faces does exist. This is further confirmed by the Kindly Man:

The Kindly Man frequently says that the servents at the House of Black and White are instruments of the Many-Faced God, but here he states they are instruments of death, equating the two. This, together with the use of the pronoun “himself” following “death” make a clear image of what exactly the god the faceless men believe in and work for.  

His Gift

Every life ends sooner or later. All religions deal with that in one way or another. Initially, I was struck that it was deeply unfair that "the first faceless man" killed a slave who wished for "an end to pain".  Young as Arya's life is, an end to pain could mean many other things (but let's not get started on ideas of revolution).

I'd say that for him the meaning of "an end of pain" is equal to death as a concept. No one can prove otherwise. Death will put the slave out of his misery. Maybe freedom is not a good enough an "end of pain" for the Faceless Men. Instead they would preach that freedom and liberty is the Gift. In fact, for them, it might be that Death is the real Freedom and Liberty. 

In addition of this, I can relate to this post:

5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

so far their priests have shown more validity to their religion than almost all others;at least their is proof there is an entity that they're worshipping.  

No one can deny that their God exists. If he indeed "frees you of your burden and sins", because, you won't have to wear them anymore, then you can't be proven to be wrong.

[Curled Finger]

Ah Lady D, this is a truly exciting discussion.   I will be brief as the working day beckons...

@PrettyPig, I was also thinking of the criminal term, "angels of mercy" as I typed.   However, your expose' on Jim Jones was better argument than I could have hoped for.   You know me, I'm not opposed to disagreement so I won't take anything from your lovely reply.  Every word is true and moreover, important to this discussion.   

As I stated early on, I'm trying to figure out why Arya is with the Faceless Men.   Was this group always something GRRM had on his mind, or did he summon them up for Arya?   Assuming nothing, they are with Arya.   Mercy is the thing that screams loudest at me.   This child is so damaged and still utterly fearless--yet I have not thought her psychopathic in the least.   Just broken.   When Bran dreams of the 3 knights over Ned, Sansa and Arya he mentions that Arya holds her secrets hard in her heart.   I think that may be a critical clue to Arya's story.  

I beg all pardons here as I have a question for @The Fattest Leech--Are there other groups akin to the Faceless Men in any of Martin's other writing?   

@Lady Dacey, @PrettyPig and @Varysblackfyre321--what do we make of the Faceless Men as a religious group involving themselves in Balon's death?   This is the murder of a king, after all.   Was this for money or an urgent desire to get Euron in power?   Paid for by a dragon egg?