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Do you think Ned knew Old Nan's true identity?


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Do you think Ned knew who Old Nan truly was? If so why did he keep this information secret and who do you think she is? (I'm a firm believer she is Shiera Seastar) If not do you think any of the previous Stark's knew her true identity? And do you think she is still alive and if so where has she been since Theon took/lost Winterfell?

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Oh man this is going to be a fun thread to read, thanks @Ser Insight.  Unfortunately I'm going to be lame and uninteresting and pose that Old Nan really was Hodor's grandmother or great aunt or something and not anyone of any great consequence or hidden identity.  This is partly because I am freaking done with hidden identities - Young Griff and presumably Jon are enough for me - and I think they'll lose their potency if there are too many of them.  So I think Ned just knew she was an old member of the staff, and that unfortunately she was killed in the burning/sacking of Winterfell by Ramsay's folks.

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6 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

Do you think Ned knew who Old Nan truly was?

I think Old Nan was once Young Nan, but is now Old Nan.

6 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

If so why did he keep this information secret and who do you think she is? (I'm a firm believer she is Shiera Seastar) If not do you think any of the previous Stark's knew her true identity? 

I think she is Old Nan and I think the vision Bran had of the slender young lady at Winterfell kissing the really tall man was Old Nan when she was Young Nan making out with Duncan the Tall, thick as a castle wall.

6 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

And do you think she is still alive and if so where has she been since Theon took/lost Winterfell?

Any hostages from Ramsay destroying Winterfell went to the Dreadfort.

There is hope, but only hope:

Q: But my brother points out that everyone from Winterfell is dead - I tell him that's not certain. We don't know what happened with Old Nan, for instance.

GRRM: Most of the women and children from Winterfell are still alive, though they are not in a good place by any means.

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9 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I think Old Nan was once Young Nan, but is now Old Nan.

I think she is Old Nan and I think the vision Bran had of the slender young lady at Winterfell kissing the really tall man was Old Nan when she was Young Nan making out with Duncan the Tall, thick as a castle wall.

Any hostages from Ramsay destroying Winterfell went to the Dreadfort.

There is hope, but only hope:

Q: But my brother points out that everyone from Winterfell is dead - I tell him that's not certain. We don't know what happened with Old Nan, for instance.

GRRM: Most of the women and children from Winterfell are still alive, though they are not in a good place by any means.

Very good catch because the next duncan and egg book will be about the she wolves of winterfell.

However don t you think old nan isn t that old? She would need to be 100? 

argh need to reread bran's series of vision taking this into acount...

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I do not think Ned knows anything about Old Nan's origins. Nothing beyond what he tells his children: that she was already at Winterfell and was already old when he was a child.

One theory I have seen is that she is the unnamed daughter of House Frey whose marriage to Ambrose Butterwell is celebrated at the ill-fated Whitewalls tourney. One hint at a Frey connection is Nan's occasional use of the word "mayhaps" and Hodor's real name, which is Walder.

Her tiny stature leads me to wonder about a CotF origin.

I have suspected that the author wants us to see a parallel between Old Nan and Olenna. 

Arya calls herself Nan, short for Nymeria (she says), during her tenure at Harrenhal. I'm not sure what that might give us in terms of hints about Old Nan, except that Harrenhal seems like a place where a lot of allegory plays out and Old Nan is a storyteller.

Because of the Nymeria / Nan equivalence created by Arya's use of the names, I suspect that Old Nan is somehow surviving in the winter town while Ramsay is in residence at Winterfell. Arya's wolf was driven off and went to live with the wolf equivalent of the "small folk" while Arya pursues her Braavos vocation. Old Nan is probably similarly biding her time (although without eating as much human flesh as Arya's direwolf) outside the castle while waiting for . . . Bran? Hodor? the return of some Starks? the birth of the next Brandon?

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1 minute ago, divica said:

Very good catch because the next duncan and egg book will be about the she wolves of winterfell.

Yup to all of this!

And to be clear, many have this same idea, it did not generate from my wobbly brain alone :P

1 minute ago, divica said:

However don t you think old nan isn t that old? She would need to be 100? 

Probably right around there, yes, but we don't know how long between the books until we see Duncan and Egg again up north in the proposed She-Wolves story.

1 minute ago, divica said:

argh need to reread bran's series of vision taking this into acount...

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

The rest of his father's words were drowned out by a sudden clatter of wood on wood. Eddard Stark dissolved, like mist in a morning sun. Now two children danced across the godswood, hooting at one another as they dueled with broken branches. The girl was the older and taller of the two. Arya! Bran thought eagerly, as he watched her leap up onto a rock and cut at the boy. But that couldn't be right. If the girl was Arya, the boy was Bran himself, and he had never worn his hair so long. And Arya never beat me playing swords, the way that girl is beating him. She slashed the boy across his thigh, so hard that his leg went out from under him and he fell into the pool and began to splash and shout. "You be quiet, stupid," the girl said, tossing her own branch aside. "It's just water. Do you want Old Nan to hear and run tell Father?" She knelt and pulled her brother from the pool, but before she got him out again, the two of them were gone.
After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows. The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them.
Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.
 
I will say that these northern boys always seem to have a spear-wife around, and most of the time they are love interests who also provide protection... Bran and Meera with her spear, Jon and Val, and Rickon and Osha.

 

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For anyone worried about Nan, the Feast for Crows appendix lists her as a captive at the Dreadfort. So at the very least she survived the sack of Winterfell.

I could see George RR Martin having her die just from the sheer hardship of the ordeal, as all that crap has to take an enormous toll, but we can hope for retribution.

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34 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

Do you think Ned knew who Old Nan truly was? If so why did he keep this information secret and who do you think she is? (I'm a firm believer she is Shiera Seastar) If not do you think any of the previous Stark's knew her true identity?

According to the little kid Bran:

No one really knew how old she was, but his father said she'd been called Old Nan even when he was a boy.

Nan had come to the castle as a wet nurse for a Brandon Stark whose mother had died birthing him. He had been an older brother of Lord Rickard, Bran's grandfather, or perhaps a younger brother, or a brother to Lord Rickard's father. Sometimes Old Nan told it one way and sometimes another.

36 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

 And do you think she is still alive and if so where has she been since Theon took/lost Winterfell?

If the old broad was marched to Dreadfort and confined to the dungeons of the Dreadfort after Ramsey torched WF she is probably dead. Rumor has it that she and Hodor’s back-story will one day eventually be revealed. I’m thinking I will be older than Nan when that happens.


 
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19 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Oh man this is going to be a fun thread to read, thanks @Ser Insight.  Unfortunately I'm going to be lame and uninteresting and pose that Old Nan really was Hodor's grandmother or great aunt or something and not anyone of any great consequence or hidden identity.  This is partly because I am freaking done with hidden identities - Young Griff and presumably Jon are enough for me - and I think they'll lose their potency if there are too many of them.  So I think Ned just knew she was an old member of the staff, and that unfortunately she was killed in the burning/sacking of Winterfell by Ramsay's folks.

I think hidden identities is more built from fans own desires and wants. Obviously with Jon there is a hidden element to his parentage (Who is his mother? Yes I believe N+A=J) as for Aegon there's a lot of secrecy surrounding him. I would love for her to still be alive and have a role in Winds. Being I believe she is Shiera I think its only poetic that after spending time with Bloodraven Bran, pieces together who Old Nan really is and that both lovers had a role in shaping who he is.

 

20 minutes ago, Texas Hold Em said:

Theory has it that Old Nan is Lady Webber.  From the order of the greenhand, if I recall. 

Ned doesn't know about Old Nan's past.  He's what, 34-35 when he died.  Old Nan was already late middle age by the time Ned came along. 

Ive seen there vid on this and their only true hard piece of evidence I like that they gave was her being related to Hodor and through her time with Dunk Hodor inherited some of Dunk in him. Though I find it hard to believe. We do know eventually she marries a Lannister...

 

16 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

There is hope, but only hope:

Q: But my brother points out that everyone from Winterfell is dead - I tell him that's not certain. We don't know what happened with Old Nan, for instance.

GRRM: Most of the women and children from Winterfell are still alive, though they are not in a good place by any means.

 I'm praying to the old gods and the new that she is alive. And for my reasoning as to why she is Shiera:

Old Nan is an ugly old woman who is toothless, shrunken and wrinkled. Almost blind, to weak to climb stairs and has a little amount of hair on her head. Old nan is the oldest person in winterfell and possible westeros and she supposedly came to be a wet nurse for "Brandon Stark" but most people don't know which one. She came as a wet nurse most likely for Brandon Stark son of Willam Stark and Lyanne Glover. Now how do the 2 intertwine...

Around the time King Maekar came into the throne Shiera felt afraid, Maekar felt spurned that his brother King Aerys chose Bloodraven as his hand and not himself. Maekar didn't trust Bloodraven making Shiera feel uneasy and not safe in Kings Landing. Nothing is known of what became of Shiera in the period between Maekar's reign and today, just like little is known of what happened to Bloodraven after he became Lord Commander. It is interesting, however, that these two lovers are both unaccounted for and seemingly disappeared for nearly a century, it is possible that Bloodraven and Shiera with nowhere else to go, came back to one another. Shiera could have spent time with Bloodraven after he became the last greenseer, it would explain why her stories seem to hold so much truth about the Others and the last hero. In ADWD Bran notes how similar one of her stories is to Bloodraven's:

“It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin.” Old Nan had told him the same story once, Bran remembered, but when he asked Robb if it was true, his brother laughed and asked him if he believed in grumkins too."

Shiera was a young adult around the time of the Blackfyre Rebellion; she was half sister to both Daemon Blackfyre and Bloodraven (her lover). If she were alive today she would indeed be extremely old at least 120. It's not impossible, Bloodraven is still alive and they're roughly the same age and both "used" magic so its definitely possible she is still alive. Remember shiera was rumored to use magic to keep her youth and beauty. Old Nan as bran describes her, 

"She was the oldest person in Winterfell for certain, maybe the oldest person in the Seven Kingdoms. Nan had come to the castle as a wet nurse for a Brandon Stark whose mother had died birthing him." Lyanne Glover died birthing her son Brandon Stark... To move forward we have to ask ourself why would Shiera come to Winterfell as a wet nurse in the first place? 

Bloodraven had knowledge that a Brandon Stark would be born with the power of the last greeneer. Bloodraven implies he's been watching Winterfell for a long time, 

“I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late.”

This confirms Bloodraven was waiting for a Brandon to be born at Winterfell. The fact he watched Neds's brith implies he didn't know when this Brandon Stark would be born. His only information could have been a general "Brandon Stark" "now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark,though the hour is late" This is why Bloodraven sent Shiera to wet-nurse hoping it was Lord Rickard's or his uncle in which this Brandon would be born from. He never expected the true Brandon to come 3-4 generations later. 

Shiera was left to wait for the true Brandon to come and became Old Nan over the years. Never expecting to be gone for so long she grew resentment for Bloodraven for abandoning her thinking she would be gone for 3-4 years. When Bran tells her the first time about his dreams of the 3 eyed crows she responds, "Crows are all liars." This could have double the meaning, it means that crows in general are liars which they are known for; and that Bloodraven who is currently a member of the Nights Watch (though he's thought to be dead) who are commonly referred to as crows lied to her telling her that she would only be gone for a few years. 

Shiera and Bloodraven were in the cave after "disappearing " and waited for Brandon to be born. Theres a very small chance that Dark Sister can be hidden in the crypts of Winterfell. She could have taken it back with her when she left the cave as Bloodraven has no need of a sword. This holds weight as Bran never makes any remark of a sword being in the cave. 

Old Nan also most likely has a form of cataracts. "Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, “So, child. This is the sort of story you like?” Bran has described her as being "almost blind"

 

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1 hour ago, divica said:

Very good catch because the next duncan and egg book will be about the she wolves of winterfell.

However don t you think old nan isn t that old? She would need to be 100? 

argh need to reread bran's series of vision taking this into acount...

Walder and Aemon. Really rare in this society but it can happen.

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14 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yup to all of this!

And to be clear, many have this same idea, it did not generate from my wobbly brain alone :P

Probably right around there, yes, but we don't know how long between the books until we see Duncan and Egg again up north in the proposed She-Wolves story.

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

The rest of his father's words were drowned out by a sudden clatter of wood on wood. Eddard Stark dissolved, like mist in a morning sun. Now two children danced across the godswood, hooting at one another as they dueled with broken branches. The girl was the older and taller of the two. Arya! Bran thought eagerly, as he watched her leap up onto a rock and cut at the boy. But that couldn't be right. If the girl was Arya, the boy was Bran himself, and he had never worn his hair so long. And Arya never beat me playing swords, the way that girl is beating him. She slashed the boy across his thigh, so hard that his leg went out from under him and he fell into the pool and began to splash and shout. "You be quiet, stupid," the girl said, tossing her own branch aside. "It's just water. Do you want Old Nan to hear and run tell Father?" She knelt and pulled her brother from the pool, but before she got him out again, the two of them were gone.
After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows. The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them.
Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.
 
I will say that these northern boys always seem to have a spear-wife around, and most of the time they are love interests who also provide protection... Bran and Meera with her spear, Jon and Val, and Rickon and Osha.

 

Rohanne Webber is describes as having strawberry-blond hair. Obviously she could have dyed it but...

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13 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yup to all of this!

And to be clear, many have this same idea, it did not generate from my wobbly brain alone :P

Probably right around there, yes, but we don't know how long between the books until we see Duncan and Egg again up north in the proposed She-Wolves story.

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

The rest of his father's words were drowned out by a sudden clatter of wood on wood. Eddard Stark dissolved, like mist in a morning sun. Now two children danced across the godswood, hooting at one another as they dueled with broken branches. The girl was the older and taller of the two. Arya! Bran thought eagerly, as he watched her leap up onto a rock and cut at the boy. But that couldn't be right. If the girl was Arya, the boy was Bran himself, and he had never worn his hair so long. And Arya never beat me playing swords, the way that girl is beating him. She slashed the boy across his thigh, so hard that his leg went out from under him and he fell into the pool and began to splash and shout. "You be quiet, stupid," the girl said, tossing her own branch aside. "It's just water. Do you want Old Nan to hear and run tell Father?" She knelt and pulled her brother from the pool, but before she got him out again, the two of them were gone.
After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows. The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them.
Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.
 
I will say that these northern boys always seem to have a spear-wife around, and most of the time they are love interests who also provide protection... Bran and Meera with her spear, Jon and Val, and Rickon and Osha.

 

I was really interested in seeing when 

Quote

a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her.

happened with this new information.

So we know it may happen between when Lyanna was a children and duncan payed a visit to winterfell. It is a rather narrow time interval. At most 70 years? So something like 3 to 4 generations of starks or important people at winterfell...

Who are the candidates?

And if old nan got to 100 then she may very well have something magical in her. I don t imagine it is easy for a person in medieval times to get to 100 in a place like winterfell where is always cold.

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There's a theory out there claiming she is dornish and that she is Tanselle Too-Tall. Yes, I know Old Nan is short, but that was because of her extreme old age. If she was the woman in Bran's vision, the one kissing the tall knight, we can see Bran describing her as a spear, spear are often used to describe tall or very slim people. Maybe Dunk met Tanselle after a time? I mean, look at the size of Hodor and we also know Nan had two sons and a grandson, and many daughters as well, it would be nice to know if her sons and grandson were also tall.

Old Nan is a real mystery though, some people claim she is Shiera Seastar, other claims she is another dornishwoman, because Nan can be short for Nymeria, some say Tanselle was not the real name of the girl Dunk met in Ashford, that she was a noble in disguise. Some say she is Rohanne Webber. Take your pick lol.

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25 minutes ago, divica said:

 

And if old nan got to 100 then she may very well have something magical in her. I don t imagine it is easy for a person in medieval times to get to 100 in a place like winterfell where is always cold.

Lord Walder is in his 90s, Aemon was 102.  Neither are really magical no?  

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11 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

Rohanne Webber is describes as having strawberry-blond hair. Obviously she could have dyed it but...

Yeah, I don't see a connection or the long term point to having a Webber up in Winterfell.

Your Shiera theory is interesting. I will have to read through it again a little more closely when I have more than thirty seconds to respond.

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15 minutes ago, divica said:

I was really interested in seeing when 

happened with this new information.

So we know it may happen between when Lyanna was a children and duncan payed a visit to winterfell. It is a rather narrow time interval. At most 70 years? So something like 3 to 4 generations of starks or important people at winterfell...

Who are the candidates?

And if old nan got to 100 then she may very well have something magical in her. I don t imagine it is easy for a person in medieval times to get to 100 in a place like winterfell where is always cold.

It seems it may have been this Brandon Stark that Nan came to Winterfell for... if this was reported as true. This Brandon is four generations back from our current Bran boy. It seems that this Brandon, son of Artos Stark, was also born around the same time (or close enough) to the first mentioned Brandon, and maybe this is one of the reasons why Old Nan gets "confused" about different Brandon's.

Dunk escorted Maester Aemon to the wall in 233, so I am assuming that Dunk could have been in Winterfell a year or two one way or t'other in this case.

Old Nan was taken to Dreadfort in 299, so that was roughly about 66 years after this presumed Dunk and Nan kissing moment. If Nan was 20??? at the kissing moment, then she would be roughly 86 years old when we see her on page.

All speculative, though.

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1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I think Old Nan was once Young Nan, but is now Old Nan.

I think she is Old Nan and I think the vision Bran had of the slender young lady at Winterfell kissing the really tall man was Old Nan when she was Young Nan making out with Duncan the Tall, thick as a castle wall.

Any hostages from Ramsay destroying Winterfell went to the Dreadfort.

There is hope, but only hope:

Q: But my brother points out that everyone from Winterfell is dead - I tell him that's not certain. We don't know what happened with Old Nan, for instance.

GRRM: Most of the women and children from Winterfell are still alive, though they are not in a good place by any means.

 

Damn I pity any woman who'd the "privellage" of staying in the Boltons home. Did Theon ever mention her after the whole WF ordeal like maybe give a hint on whether or not she along with the rest of the hostages were being treated? I kinda have to say if  I hope anything regarding this I hope she and the rest had met their ends relatively quickly; instead of being the captives of two sadists such as Ramsey and Roose.I mean what exactly was the point in bringing them along? The walders I get they can be valueble hostages but the peasants? Why? No one cares about them and they're all witnesses to the act. 

 

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Old Nan was wet nurse of Brandon Stark, son of Willam Stark and Lyanne Glover. Lyanne died in childbirth, thus Starks hired Nan as wet nurse for the baby. If the mother died then it's a good explanation why they hired a wet nurse. Because usually Starks women were breastfeeding their children themselves, and didn't used wet nurses.

After Lyanne's death Willem married second time, with Melantha Blackwood. They had two children - Jocelyn and Edwyle. Edwyle married with Marna Locke, and they were parents of Rickard Stark, and grandparents of Brandon, Eddard, Lyanna and Benjen. Thus Old Nan was from the same generation as Melantha Blackwood, Eddard's great grandmother.

Eddard and Robert Baratheon are aproximately of the same age, same generation. Robert's great grandparents on Targaryen side were Aegon V and Betha Blackwood. So probably Betha and Melantha were either sisters or cousins. And thus maybe Winterfell is where Aegon V met his future wife. Aegon was born in a year 200 AC. So his wife and Melantha, and Old Nan are from the same generation, and thus in ADWD Old Nan is aproximately 100 years old +- a few years. So she can't be Shiera Seastar.

Shiera was born between 178 and 184. If Willem Stark and his two wives Lyanne and Melantha, and Aegon and Betha were from the same generation, then little Brandon was born at about the same time +- a few years as Duncan the Small (born between 220 and 224). So at that time Shiera was 36-46 years old - too old to be a wet nurse. And by year 300 she would have been 116-122 years old.

In 300 Brynden Rivers is 125 years old, maester Aemon was 102 years old when he died (also in 300). Bran said that Old Nan is supposedly one of the oldest people (or probably the oldest person) in Westeros. But it's unlikely that Bran or other people knew about age of maester Aemon. So probably he was comparing Old Nan to people like Hoster Tully (Bran's grandfather, that was 59-61 when he died), Barristan Selmy (63-64 in 300 AC), Walder Frey (92), Jon Arryn (was 78-80 at the time of his death), Pycelle (84 at time of his death), Olenna Tyrell (72 in 300). So Bran was comparing Old Nan with age of those people, even if she is 100+- a few years, then she is still the oldest person that Bran knew about (prior he met Bloodraven).

So even based on her age, it's unlikely that Old Nan is old enough to be Shiera Seastar. Hodor is her great granson. He is younger than Eddard, thus Old Nan can't be much older than Eddard's great grandmother Melantha Blackwood. Thus she's closer to 100, not 115+ like Shiera (if she was still alive).

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