Jump to content

The Three Queens


The South Forgets

Recommended Posts

Welcome @The South Forgets! Great username btw. Petyr's knowledge of Daenerys would be limited, if nonexistent. I can't recall Littlefinger once mentioning Stannis' cause, so I would discount Selyse. It's most likely Myrcella. Littlefinger may have agents in the Planky Town/Sunspear that may have discovered Arianne's plans. However, it is possible that he is referring to Sansa herself. If a Stark returns to Winterfell, it is possible that the newly independent kingdom could continue, with Sansa at its head. This could be Littlefinger's plan. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, The South Forgets said:

I assume that the first two queens are Cersei and Margaery. But who's the third queen? Is it Myrcella, Dany, or Selyse/Mel? Or maybe someone else?

I'd go with Selyse. The crowning of Myrcella never took place ("someone talked"). There seems to be a general discounting of events in Essos by the King's Landing folks, so not Daenerys. It's widely known that Stannis has named himself king, and even attacked King's Landing, we should recall. So "Selyse" it is. I don't think Melisandre and her role are yet generally known.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First instinct is that it’s referring to Cersei, Margaery and Daenerys, though I agree with @Pride of Driftmark that it is unclear just how much Petyr truly counts Daenerys as a threat. Even if he were aware of her actions she is no immediate threat as of yet. Unless he is aware of the Quentyn plot to bring Dany back. Still, if he knows about any of the other plots to call those ladies queens then seems he must be aware of the potential threat of Dany.

That said, there are a surprisingly long list of alternatives.

I could see him referring to Sansa as de facto Queen in the North, as he will not know about Robb’s will (which essentially skipped her and Arya completely in favour of Jon) or Bran and Rickon’s survival and possible retrieval in the case of the latter. Though he hasn’t really openly referred to Sansa as such, it might be in the back of his mind that if he could wed Sansa and Harold then that would be giving Sansa essentially queenship over the North, Trident and the Vale if they then declare independence. So, yeah, might be a hint to his future plans for her.

Another possibility is that he is thinking of Arianne, either her plot to make Myrcella queen or even thinking of Arianne herself as a queen. Same reason he might be thinking of Selyse or even Shireen as the third queen (depending on whether news gets out about Stannis’s deal with the Iron Bank has got out). A slightly less likely option is he is thinking of the Iron Born and Asha, who he might have been predicting would win the kingsmoot... though, let’s face it, who in this series has ever really taken a genuine interest in Iron Born politics? So, I’ll put that out there even though I doubt it.

Finally, and a slightly out there suggestion, he could be jokingly referring to Olenna Tyrell, the “Queen of Thorns”. We know that she and Littlefinger conspired to kill Joffrey, which means the pair must have put stock in each other. So, she might even be feeding him information when and where he can about what the Tyrells are planning. Either way, she is sort of his “in” to the Tyrell machinations - they are probably planning something massive if Margaery is found guilty by the Faith.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Welcome @The South Forgets

My first instinct when reading it was that it was Dany. Selyse is not exactly running things in the Stannis camp, so it could hardly be called "her" war. The other candidates suggested could all be referred to as queens but aren't actually queens. That doesn't rule them out entirely, but I think LF was being literal. 

I think it's very worthwhile to consider the implications of LF actually knowing a lot about what Dany is up to, which I think his comment implies. LF is not the kind of guy to not incorporate such information into his plots, so he must have a plan ready for when Dany arrives. That's going to be very interesting. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Welcome @The South Forgets

My first instinct when reading it was that it was Dany. Selyse is not exactly running things in the Stannis camp, so it could hardly be called "her" war. The other candidates suggested could all be referred to as queens but aren't actually queens. That doesn't rule them out entirely, but I think LF was being literal. 

I think it's very worthwhile to consider the implications of LF actually knowing a lot about what Dany is up to, which I think his comment implies. LF is not the kind of guy to not incorporate such information into his plots, so he must have a plan ready for when Dany arrives. That's going to be very interesting. 

I mentioned once on Small Questions if Littlefinger is aware of Dany's goal because if so, then his plans for Sansa should take into account her eventual return, although that doesn't seem to be the case. However, if he does know a lot about Daenerys, which that quote may imply, then yes it would be interesting to see what he does on the eventuality of Dany's arrival.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I always thought it was Cersei, Margaery and Dany, but I wouldn't discount Sansa since crowning her seems to be part of Littlefinger's long game. It's been a while since I've read A Feast for Crows, but I vaguely recall Dany being discussed at a Small Council meeting. Whatever they know about Dany, it's safe to assume LF knows, too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Lady Anna said:

Also I think it's interesting that he says 'the three queens' and not just 'three queens', which sort of implies he's talking about three who are already queens. Maybe?

Possibly. I think it's just a play on "War of the Five Kings", but an interesting thought. 

7 minutes ago, sarah.jenice said:

I vaguely recall Dany being discussed at a Small Council meeting.

Very much so. He was part of the plot to assassinate her, and heard dragons in Meeeen mentioned in Tywin's small council, I think. 

18 minutes ago, Lady Anna said:

I mentioned once on Small Questions if Littlefinger is aware of Dany's goal because if so, then his plans for Sansa should take into account her eventual return, although that doesn't seem to be the case. However, if he does know a lot about Daenerys, which that quote may imply, then yes it would be interesting to see what he does on the eventuality of Dany's arrival.

I think it would be shocking if a man as connected as LF would be completely unaware of Dany. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it was Ravenous Reader who pointed out that three queens was a chess analogy and GRRM is a big chess player. The third queen is a pawn that advances all the way across the board, and that would be Sansa. I like the idea. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Makk said:

The third queen is a pawn that advances all the way across the board, and that would be Sansa.

I think Cersei would be much more likely. Littlefinger has spoken at least once about his use of her for misruling the 7 kingdoms and bringing down the iron throne. Cersei is the fairly stupid, self-centered, easily manipulated piece on the board at this time. Sansa is in no sense a "queen." Probably, Littlefinger lusts after Sansa as his consort, but she isn't there yet (he still has uses for her "marriageability") and he isn't king of anything but Chaos.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, Makk said:

I think it was Ravenous Reader who pointed out that three queens was a chess analogy and GRRM is a big chess player. The third queen is a pawn that advances all the way across the board, and that would be Sansa. I like the idea. 

It's a great analogy, though one could argue that Daenerys, who began her story being literally sold to someone, to become increasingly powerful in each move she makes, from kahleesi to queen of Meereen, also fits the image very well. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Welcome @The South Forgets!

While I can't say for sure, I always took it to mean Cersei, Marg and Dany.

Through his Kettleblack spies, Petyr would have known Cersei was plotting against Marg, making some form of open feud likely.

Through his probable connections in Braavos and Lys (where whores go/where money is found) he might know all to well of this Dragon Queen and her army of killers.

A Feast for Crows - Alayne II

"He did not hold her kiss against her. "You would not believe half of what is happening in King's Landing, sweetling. Cersei stumbles from one idiocy to the next, helped along by her council of the deaf, the dim, and the blind. I always anticipated that she would beggar the realm and destroy herself, but I never expected she would do it quite so fast. It is quite vexing. I had hoped to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds and allow some fruits to ripen, but now . . . it is a good thing that I thrive on chaos. What little peace and order the five kings left us will not long survive the three queens, I fear."
"Three queens?" She did not understand.
Nor did Petyr choose to explain. Instead, he smiled and said, "I have brought my sweet girl back a gift."
 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I think it would be shocking if a man as connected as LF would be completely unaware of Dany. 

Oh yes absolutely. But how he thinks his plans for himself and Sansa will still be viable upon Dany's eventual return (if she does return ofc, and with dragons) is a mystery. But the story is so far from that point, and it depends on so many variables, that maybe he'll be successful at first, before Dany even sets foot in Westeros. Or he never succeeds at all. So many things can happen!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Welcome @The South Forgets!

While I can't say for sure, I always took it to mean Cersei, Marg and Dany.

Through his Kettleblack spies, Petyr would have known Cersei was plotting against Marg, making some form of open feud likely.

Through his probable connections in Braavos and Lys (where whores go/where money is found) he might know all to well of this Dragon Queen and her army of killers.

A Feast for Crows - Alayne II

"He did not hold her kiss against her. "You would not believe half of what is happening in King's Landing, sweetling. Cersei stumbles from one idiocy to the next, helped along by her council of the deaf, the dim, and the blind. I always anticipated that she would beggar the realm and destroy herself, but I never expected she would do it quite so fast. It is quite vexing. I had hoped to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds and allow some fruits to ripen, but now . . . it is a good thing that I thrive on chaos. What little peace and order the five kings left us will not long survive the three queens, I fear."
"Three queens?" She did not understand.
Nor did Petyr choose to explain. Instead, he smiled and said, "I have brought my sweet girl back a gift."
 

Danaerys is so far content sitting on the ebony bench, with no apparent move for the iron throne. The third queen can't be her.

My candidates would be

Olenna; her return to Highgarden immediately after the wedding and leaving her granddaughter without her guidance surely must have a reason

Myrcella/Arianne, if Littlefinger is aware of the happenings in Dorne and timeline fits.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hard to say if it's Dany to whom he's referring given her rather unpredictable movements. If LF knows about Quentyn or Aegon trying to marry her and head straight to Westeros, then it's more likely that he's referring to Dany. Aegon/Quentyn may be king in this situation, but Dany has the dragons, thus the conflict would be about 3 queens. No guarantee that Aegon/Quentyn could ride especially if LF doubts Aegon's authenticity. If LF doesn't know about Aegon/Quentyn getting Dany to Westeros, it's harder to say because the timeline is difficult to discern. Is he talking about sooner or later? 

 

But no way LF isn't paying close attention to Dany and her dragons, though.

He has Braavosi roots and is still deeply tied to the IB and they're quite preoccupied with dragons in principle and tradition. He's been listening to Robert's paranoia on the Counsel for years and years regarding Viserys and Dany. He's entrenched in a lot of (shady) business deals and I highly doubt they're just in Westeros meaning he's paying attention to a lot of places and hearing a lot of things. And there's reason to believe he takes the Others' threat seriously and if so, he's also paying attention to dragons. 

Note Littlefinger here. He’s taking Alliser’s report seriously. If LF has his eye on the Others, then he’s watching Dany and her dragons closely. Alliser's telling begins with Varys, LF and Pycelle, and ends with Varys, LF and Pycelle. LF goes from feigning boredom to stirring, to "watching it all start to finish".

ACOK Tyrion VI

At the council table Varys smiled knowingly, Littlefinger sat feigning boredom, and Pycelle gaped like a fish, pale and confused. A herald stepped forward. "If any man has other matters to set before the King's Hand, let him speak now or go forth and hold his silence."

"I will be heard." A slender man all in black pushed his way between the Redwyne twins.

"Ser Alliser!" Tyrion exclaimed. "Why, I had no notion that you'd come to court. You should have sent me word."

"They were dead the first time," Ser Alliser snapped. "Pale and cold, with black hands and feet. I brought Jared's hand, torn from his corpse by the bastard's wolf."

Littlefinger stirred. "And where is this charming token?"

"And to hold it you need men, which I've given you . . . as you might have noted, if your ears heard anything but insults. Take them, thank me, and begone before I'm forced to take a crab fork to you again. Give my warm regards to Lord Mormont . . . and to Jon Snow as well." Bronn seized Ser Alliser by the elbow and marched him forcefully from the hall.

Grand Maester Pycelle had already scuttled off, but Varys and Littlefinger had watched it all, start to finish. "I grow ever more admiring of you, my lord," confessed the eunuch. "You appease the Stark boy with his father's bones and strip your sister of her protectors in one swift stroke. You give that black brother the men he seeks, rid the city of some hungry mouths, yet make it all seem mockery so none may say that the dwarf fears snarks and grumkins. Oh, deftly done."

 

By process of elimination though, Dany's in the lead for me. No way is LF putting Sansa into harm's way (or himself for that matter). As for Arianne/Selyse/Myrcella, it's a patriarchal society so for a Queen to register at the level of LF's War of Three Queens, she has to either be single and a powerhouse in herself or she has to outshine and outpower her king in some way (Cersei). I don't see Arianne/Selyse/Myrcella being any of these nor do I see LF putting any of them anywhere near this level.  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Danaerys is so far content sitting on the ebony bench, with no apparent move for the iron throne. The third queen can't be her.

My candidates would be

Olenna; her return to Highgarden immediately after the wedding and leaving her granddaughter without her guidance surely must have a reason

Myrcella/Arianne, if Littlefinger is aware of the happenings in Dorne and timeline fits.

You might be right about Dany, I just feel Petyr would have known about the brewing turmoil in Slaver's Bay and figured Dany would soon be on her way.  

Olenna is a good shout too, considering her and LF's alleged history. One wonders how much of the Kettleblack's  info on Cersei's anti Margaery agenda has been passed on to the Queen of Thorns by Petyr.

That's an interesting point about the timeline and Dorne, I'd even say it was possible that Petyr has had recent contact with the Martells.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, The South Forgets said:

In AFFC, Littlefinger makes a reference to the "three queens" 

I assume that the first two queens are Cersei and Margaery. But who's the third queen? Is it Myrcella, Dany, or Selyse/Mel? Or maybe someone else?

As you suggest, two would appear to be Cersei and Margaery: Obara to Ellaria in The Watcher of Dance...

"The two queens are squabbling over Tommen like bitches with a juicy bone."

And from The Griffin Reborn in Dance...

"Queen Cersei and Queen Margaery are fighting over the little king like two bitches with a chicken bone."

The third is most likely Daenerys since Petyr obtains information from abroad, which is not disclosed, shortly before he makes the remark to Sansa...

Quote

The three knights bowed and withdrew, though the tall one with the blond hair kissed her hand before taking his leave. 

"Hedge knights?" said Alayne, when the door had closed. 

"Hungry knights. I thought it best that we have a few more swords about us. The times grow ever more interesting, my sweet, and when the times are interesting you can never have too many swords. The Merling King's returned to Gulltown, and old Oswell had some tales to tell." 

She knew better than to ask what sort of tales. If Petyr had wanted her to know, he would have told her.

Alayne II, Feast 41

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd quite forgotten that line. But yes, my first instinct is to go with Cersei. Margaery and Dany. Despite the Westerosi tunnel vision, it'd be hard for someone as informed as Littlefinger to completely overlook the growing threat in Slavers Bay. Especially with whispers of dragons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...