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Marvel Cinematic Universe General Discussion No H8 M8 Just Gr8


The Anti-Targ

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40 minutes ago, The BlackBear said:

Being hated and feared, it's at the start of every X-Men story. People are scared of Mutants replacing them, they're increasing in number, and they're clearly more powerful. Homo Sapiens replaced the Neanderthal, and in turn Mutants will replace humans, if they aren't kept in check. This isn't helped by folk like Magneto going around telling people that mutants are superior to humans.

Mutants are stranger than most heroes as well, who by and large look primarily human. Then just plain old bigotry, and a fair bit of religious intolerance. There's the gay parallel for instance, suddenly and without warning around puberty the child you raised isn't, just the child you raised. It's something different, and to some people that's scary.

The X-Men, are there to protect mutants, and to prove to humans that they aren't a threat, they're fighting for all people. Plus the X lends itself to team names and costumes.

Yup, but all of that is applicable to Inhumans. The way the worlds population is portrayed in the MCU, they wouldn’t give a shit how one group of mutants is technically different from this other group. I can’t see how you can use the hated/feared dynamic in the MCU as it currently is (I’m well aware that the obvious answer here is to ignore AoS, but it still doesn’t quite fit with a post Sokovia accords movie-verse either).

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13 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

1 Yup, but all of that is applicable to Inhumans.

The way the worlds population is portrayed in the MCU, they wouldn’t give a shit how one group of mutants is technically different from this other group. 2 I can’t see how you can use the hated/feared dynamic in the MCU as it currently is (I’m well aware that the obvious answer here is to ignore AoS, but it still doesn’t quite fit with a post Sokovia accords movie-verse either).

1 It was always stupid to treat Inhumans like Mutants, they aren't the same. Inhumans have inhuman blood in them before Terrigenesis, Mutation can happen to anyone. That's part of why everyone hates them.

2 As it currently is sure, but mutants aren't in the MCU yet. As soon as they are, just chuck in a bunch of people discovering the 'mutant menace,' all the public panic, and how they're scared of it and you're off to the races. Chuck in a couple of violent lethal power manifestations for bonus points.

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The Sokovia Accords were a step toward the Mutant Registration Act. First the Avengers, then the general population.

Civil War II coming to a theater near you...

Or X-Men Vs Avengers.

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The Sokovia Accords could be what sends Magneto over the edge. If mutants are a secret, he could view the Accords as too close to home. Also, you can introduce Genosha. Make it similar to Wakanda, in that nobody really knows much about it, but it's a place with an economy based in mutant trafficking and slave labor. Magneto leveling it could be the inciting incident in outing mutants to the world and turning everyone against mutants, specifically.

I think Magneto's ties to the Holocaust are too crucial to the character to do away with, but you could create an origin where, while in the Nazi camps, he was experimented on and frozen for a couple decades. Maybe Prof. X is the one who freed him during the 80s or something.

Overall, I think a creative writer can find a way to get mutants involved and overcome the logistical problems.

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14 hours ago, Which Tyler said:

Bare in mind that I've never read the comics.

Why does Magneto's backstory have to specifically be the Nazi Holocaust? There have been plenty of more recent genocides after all, just not as famous or long lasting. Isn't here anything about his character growth that couldn't apply to a Rwandan Tutsi? Bosnian Muslims? Cambodian victim of the Khmer Rouge? East Timorian under Indonesian rule? Etc etc.

You could pretty much pick the attrocity based on how old you want him, and could definitely use it to add some much-needed diversity.

Not sure the world is quite ready for a European Muslim Magneto. A lot of the world doesn't really know or want to know that there are "native" European Muslims. The other thing about the Bosnia genocide is that genocidal denialism (or justification) is pretty widespread among Serbians, and those strongly allied with them. I have several Serbian friends who immigrated around that time or soon after, they are great people except when it comes to the Bosnia situation, where they become very nationalistic, and aggressively defensive about it. There is probably too much backlash and conflict for a company like Disney to be willing to take on in it's cash cow franchise if Magneto became a Bosnian Muslim. Possibly in the 2050 reboot of the X-Men it may not longer be too soon for Magneto to switch to the Bosnian genocide. And of course replacing a Jewish character with a Muslim character also brings in the political sensitivities re the Israel / Palestine situation.

As for the other genocides, making a shift from a European genocide to Asian or African would also wake up the anti-race bending crowd, as well as still piss off those who see the Jewish and Nazi Holocaust connection as significant. And there's still the Hydra connection to Nazis and WWII, so symmetry with Captain America.

In terms of age of the character, being alive in WWII, I don't think it's too much of a suspension of disbelief to think that a lot of mutants have longer than average lifespans, so Magneto can be 80 and still look late 50-60-ish.

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You can fairly easily handwave Magneto's powers allowing him to put less strain on his body, giving him a sort of longevity.

2 hours ago, Bastard of Boston said:

Genosha. Make it similar to Wakanda, in that nobody really knows much about it, but it's a place with an economy based in mutant trafficking and slave labor. Magneto leveling it could be the inciting incident in outing mutants to the world and turning everyone against mutants, specifically.

This would work really well, as Magneto would be getting older and potentially more desperate. We've seen Magneto done on film a lot recently, it might be nice to see the emerging power vacuum in the wake of his death.

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I think I was part of a discussion about updating magneto in the X-Men fox threads a few months back. 

I agree that he doesn't have to forever remain attached to the Holocaust much like other characters slide along wars etc. 

He could also remain Jewish without having to have lived through the Holocaust. I think it would be just as understandable for a Jewish person to have this stance although I guess  from a storytelling point it's good to have at least a connection to holocaust survivors.

Regarding the Inhumans discussion. Have the movies ever acknowledged the Inhumans? Because I could see this being a scenario where the MCU may be better served completely ignoring the TV continuity. They don't necessarily have to contradict the TV shows but I wouldn't screw up mutants by being burdened by inhuman TV continuity. I think this will be the case . 

It's a shame they squandered the original Inhumans concept on the TV show. 

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57 minutes ago, red snow said:

Regarding the Inhumans discussion. Have the movies ever acknowledged the Inhumans? Because I could see this being a scenario where the MCU may be better served completely ignoring the TV continuity. They don't necessarily have to contradict the TV shows but I wouldn't screw up mutants by being burdened by inhuman TV continuity. I think this will be the case . 

It's a shame they squandered the original Inhumans concept on the TV show. 

Not really. There was some confusion as to what Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch were, I think from the point of view of AoS, HYDRA stumbled on a way to awaken Inhumans, but they never actually use the term in Age of Ultron. I’d have to agree, cutting loose the tv side of things would free things up. Annoyingly, we all know they’ll never officially decanonise AoS (why piss the fans off?), and instead roll out an X-Men film where everyone’s all “goodness, mutants! We’ve never dealt with anything like this before!” and AoS fans will just have to suck it up. It’s a shame.

Really, better integration with a tv show is the only way the MCU has to top itself. They can’t do a bigger film with more characters than Infinity War surely, but if they had a show on the upcoming Disney streaming service that was truly under Feige’s control like all the movies, that’d be something to behold.

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4 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

 

Really, better integration with a tv show is the only way the MCU has to top itself. They can’t do a bigger film with more characters than Infinity War surely, but if they had a show on the upcoming Disney streaming service that was truly under Feige’s control like all the movies, that’d be something to behold.

It's a shame Favreau is doing the Star Wars show as he'd seem the natural choice for a "parity with the movies" TV show. Good for star wars though.

I wonder whether Fantastic Four is more likely to become a high-budget tv show or film franchise?

I'm out of the loop with Inhumans in SHIELD. Were they really that prevalent? I thought in SHIELD at least the point was that they were a secret society. If the Inhumans are just something SHIELD had to deal with rather than the public at large knowing about them I guess there's still a chance the movies can treat mutants as something "new".

I guess the nuclear option is to do a reverse comics storyline and kill off all the Inhumans except for the Royal Family ones? Which would be funny as the inverse only happened in the comics because they had to have the Inhumans take the role of mutants so that they'd match the film.

Then again we still don't know for sure whether the X-men will wind up in the MCU. Seems unlikely they'd keep them separate but who knows.

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1 hour ago, red snow said:

I'm out of the loop with Inhumans in SHIELD. Were they really that prevalent? I thought in SHIELD at least the point was that they were a secret society. If the Inhumans are just something SHIELD had to deal with rather than the public at large knowing about them I guess there's still a chance the movies can treat mutants as something "new".

Afraid not, it was a global thing. They started out secret, but then the substance that triggers the transition got into the sea and a bunch of fish products. They played on all the exact dynamics of X-Men, (probably as they assumed they’d never get the rights and Inhumans basically were the MCU’s mutants) where anyone might turn into an Inhuman and everyone was afraid of them. The director of SHIELD (they’re back and public, don’t you know ... I’m not sure if Cap knows yet) was intentionally given to an Inhuman to try and demonstrate trust in them to win hearts and minds. Inhumans and HYDRA (they’re back, in various forms, don’t you know ... I’m not sure if Cap knows yet) have pretty much been the backbone of all 5 seasons of AoS.

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3 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Here's one: make Magneto a survivor of the Rwandan genocide of the Tutsis. 

Yeah - that could also lead to him being an interesting antagonist for Black Panther down the road. He'd probably be even more pissed off with Wakanda than Killmonger and a hell of a lot harder to put down. Mix in the Genosha idea (which I think was an island off Africa?) mentioned above and we probably don't need the X-men (or at least can have the X-men and Black Panther together).

2 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

Afraid not, it was a global thing. They started out secret, but then the substance that triggers the transition got into the sea and a bunch of fish products. They played on all the exact dynamics of X-Men, (probably as they assumed they’d never get the rights and Inhumans basically were the MCU’s mutants) where anyone might turn into an Inhuman and everyone was afraid of them. The director of SHIELD (they’re back and public, don’t you know ... I’m not sure if Cap knows yet) was intentionally given to an Inhuman to try and demonstrate trust in them to win hearts and minds. Inhumans and HYDRA (they’re back, in various forms, don’t you know ... I’m not sure if Cap knows yet) have pretty much been the backbone of all 5 seasons of AoS.

I like the "I'm not sure if Cap knows" :)

This seems a lot harder to ignore. The kind of thing where you'd wish someone had a gauntlet of infinite power and said "no more inhumans" or Spider-man making a deal with the devil. Or Scarlet Witch having a breakdown and wishing her (inhuman) species into non-existence...

 

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Not sure how reliable this is but seeing as we're already on the topic:

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/04/19/kevin-feige-hoovering-up-deadpool-fantastic-four-and-x-men-for-marvels-phase-4-dark-phoenix-the-last-fox-x-men-movie/

Quote

This includes the information that X-Men: Dark Phoenix will be the last proper Fox Marvel movie, presumably the last in that specific continuity. And that the regular X-Men crew will be off the projects as everything will move to Disney for future chapters.

Confirming that the X-Men being integrated into the Marvel Cinematic Universe is a done deal, and merely awaiting the approval of the merger.

And that Marvel Studio head Kevin Feige is “hoovering up” all of the Fox-Marvel characters, and is already planning for them all to go into Phase 4. This includes the X-Men, Deadpool, and Fantastic Four.

He also learned that all manner of issues regarding Fox are very much up in the air about their future with the company and what will happen, again pending the merger’s approval in mid-2019. Projects are not so much being put on hold, but that the crew going forward on franchises is undecided, as Disney may take over.

I think they could just leave Deadpool alone. 

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While the Inhuman outbreak, I think, might have been portrayed as rampant in AoS, I'd argue -- due to the lack of new Inhumans we've met -- that they can portray it as a much more contained outbreak than we originally thought. If they truly wanted to cop-out, they could just as easily write in that the Inhuman outbreak wasn't a lasting change, and due to the Inhuman gene diluting with each subsequent birth, the Inhumans who were created only had powers for a short period...similar to the MGH (mutant growth hormone) trend in the comics, which had random people developing temporary powers.

The actual Inhumans series hasn't been referenced on AoS or the movies. They can easily pretend that never happened. Sure, AoS was referenced within Inhumans, but if the show doesn't count, the refernece doesn't count.

Wanda and Pietro were never Inhumans in the MCU. It was a popular theory, but they've never been referenced as Inhuman or even hinted at being Inhuman. And now, with mutants being included in the MCU, they can retcon it all by saying the mind stone unlocked their x-gene.

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Yeah, the Inhumans outbreak was made out to be a pretty big deal in AoS.  They brought in the guy who's played the U.S. president in the movies to reprise his role for an episode 2.  It's one of those things that made the so-called connection between the TV show and the movies very tenuous - in that it was made out to be such a big deal, you would think the Avengers would have been very interested in the whole thing.

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4 hours ago, WarGalley said:

I think they could just leave Deadpool alone. 

It’d be very easy out of all the properties to just shoehorn Deadpool into the MCU with a fourth wall breaking quip or two.

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54 minutes ago, Rhom said:

It’d be very easy out of all the properties to just shoehorn Deadpool into the MCU with a fourth wall breaking quip or two.

I guess I don't see it necessary right now or at least I don't need to see Deadpool in the MCU. His standalone movies rely on raunchy R-rated Ryan Reynolds humor which Marvel can probably successfully water down to PG-13 material if they attempt a crossover. But I don't feel so strongly one way or another. 

Actually now that I think about it, the better potential is having MCU characters show up in R-rated Deadpool movies. Hopefully we can get Wolverine from the X-Men movies showing up with Omega Red in R-rated Deadpool 3.

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Maybe it’d be funnier to put everyone except Deadpool into the MCU, and have Deadpool totally aware of this snub. Besides, Deadpool is one of the few Marvel properties that I don’t think Marvel Studios would necessarily be better at, Fox seem to be doing fine with him. 

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