Brannis the Mannis Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 This is just a completely stupid decision on his part. The Weeper is shown to have recently killed several of the rangers Jon sent beyond the Wall, and openly mocked their deaths by planting their heads in plain view. Letting in Tormund was smart, because he was willing to have peace and work with Jon. No way is he ever going to work together with the NW, and even if he did agree to it, nobody would feel safe with him around. Not one of Jon's smarter moments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 4 minutes ago, Brannis the Mannis said: This is just a completely stupid decision on his part. The Weeper is shown to have recently killed several of the rangers Jon sent beyond the Wall, and openly mocked their deaths by planting their heads in plain view. Letting in Tormund was smart, because he was willing to have peace and work with Jon. No way is he ever going to work together with the NW, and even if he did agree to it, nobody would feel safe with him around. Not one of Jon's smarter moments. If he doesn t let the weeper pass it would be worse. First jon still can t defend the entire Wall, so if they want a lot of wildlings can climb the Wall and pass. Then if he doesn t let the weeper pass thousands of wildlings will be turned into wights instead of manning the castles of the NW. If you read jon chapters he gives several reasons why he must let the weeper pass even though he doesn t like him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 It's difficult to say you want peace and a general amnesty with the wildlings, then pick and choose which ones to let in. It would hardly build trust amongst the wildlings if Jon let some in, and left the rest to the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 1 hour ago, Brannis the Mannis said: This is just a completely stupid decision on his part. First off, in the scheme of the story at large, the Weeper is a distraction to the reader. The Weeper probably won't last very long in TWOW at all. He will either be killed off by some other brothers in a battle to the east, or he becomes wightified... and that is the point Jon is trying to make; to save everyone. It seems Jon is trying to both give everyone an equal chance to prove themselves a benefit to the society south of the wall, and Jon also does not want to add to the army of the dead. Jon wants the Weeper for his knowledge. One thing we know, in ADWD Jon makes it clear, "I do not require men to kneel, but they do need to obey." If the Weeper does not obey, he gets punished. Just ask that plotting traitor Janos Slynt. A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI "When a man takes the black, his crimes are forgiven," Jon reminded them. "If we want the free folk to fight beside us, we must pardon their past crimes as we would for our own." "The Weeper will not say the words," insisted Yarwyck. "He will not wear the cloak. Even other raiders do not trust him." "You need not trust a man to use him." Else how could I make use of all of you? "We need the Weeper, and others like him. Who knows the wild better than a wildling? Who knows our foes better than a man who has fought them?" Quote The Weeper is shown to have recently killed several of the rangers Jon sent beyond the Wall, and openly mocked their deaths by planting their heads in plain view. Letting in Tormund was smart, because he was willing to have peace and work with Jon. True. I agree very much here. We should remember the words of the wise Val here: A Dance with Dragons - Jon V Not all the fighting men were broken, though. Half a dozen Thenns in bronze scale armor stood clustered round one cellar stair, watching sullenly and making no attempt to join the others. In the ruins of the old village smithy Jon spied a big bald slab of a man he recognized as Halleck, the brother of Harma Dogshead. Harma's pigs were gone, though. Eaten, no doubt. Those two in furs were Hornfoot men, as savage as they were scrawny, barefoot even in the snow. There are wolves amongst these sheep, still. Val had reminded him of that, on his last visit with her. "Free folk and kneelers are more alike than not, Jon Snow. Men are men and women women, no matter which side of the Wall we were born on. Good men and bad, heroes and villains, men of honor, liars, cravens, brutes … we have plenty, as do you." She was not wrong. The trick was telling one from the other, parting the sheep from the goats. Quote No way is he ever going to work together with the NW, and even if he did agree to it, nobody would feel safe with him around. Not one of Jon's smarter moments. As explained above, either the Weeper obeys, or he dies. Maybe the choice between life or death by wight will make the Weeper change... but I seriously doubt it and he ends up punished somehow. I seriously doubt that with all GRRM has planned for TWOW (starting with two huge battles), that this ragtag band of side story a-holes is going to be a large or lasting threat in the story. Could it be a mistake in the end? Maybe, but we readers are moving in to act three of the story and I doubt that author is going to keep rehashing "life lessons" over and over because that will just stunt the plot progression. Question here because I cannot remember: How many, if any beyond his own few cohorts, free folk actually followed the Weeper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 8 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: Could it be a mistake in the end? Maybe, but we readers are moving in to act three of the story and I doubt that author is going to keep rehashing "life lessons" over and over because that will just stunt the plot progression. Question here because I cannot remember: How many, if any beyond his own few cohorts, free folk actually followed the Weeper? From 100K we know that 1000 were captured by stannis, 4K went with tormund, some thousands with mother mole so that leaves a lot of possible followers for the weeper. In adition, while we have no idea what tormund has been doing we know that the weeper is probably planning a new attack on the Wall and he needs men for that. I don t think the weeper is much of a life lesson but more of the last battle between the wildlings and NW before the WW. If the battle will actually happen or if the weeper and the NW reach an agreement is another question... I would say that a lot will happen in the first chapters on the Wall... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 2 minutes ago, divica said: From 100K we know that 1000 were captured by stannis, 4K went with tormund, some thousands with mother mole so that leaves a lot of possible followers for the weeper. In adition, while we have no idea what tormund has been doing we know that the weeper is probably planning a new attack on the Wall and he needs men for that. Thanks. Yeah, I remembered the numbers that were a little more "concrete" (Stannis, Tormund, Mother Mole), but I couldn't remember if ther was anything actually given to the Weeper besides his merry band of crybabies 2 minutes ago, divica said: I don t think the weeper is much of a life lesson but more of the last battle between the wildlings and NW before the WW. If the battle will actually happen or if the weeper and the NW reach an agreement is another question... yeah, I'm not counting on anything big to happen. The Weeper is not the big enemy, just a small distraction. 2 minutes ago, divica said: I would say that a lot will happen in the first chapters on the Wall... No doubt, and I cannot wait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Back door hodor Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 I have to say I kinda agree with the OP on this one, and I am no Jon hater really. The simple reality is that though the watch does need more men to man the wall, They clearly do not have the resources to take in every wildling north of the wall, even with the Iron banks loan. They can barely afford to feed Stannis and his men. Jon could have afforded to be a little more selective in who he let through the wall and still accomplished his objective of manning the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Jon has the right of it, even if he has to later separate the sheep from the goats. Jon is looking at the bigger picture than just resources at Castle Black. He intends on having the free folk rework the lands to start providing for themselves, but in the meantime, no such future plans can happen if quadruple the amount of wights vs Nights Watch come through and kill everyone. A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII Thousands of people, Jon thought. Men, women, children. Anger rose inside him, but when he spoke his voice was quiet and cold. "Are you so blind, or is it that you do not wish to see? What do you think will happen when all these enemies are dead?" Above the door the raven muttered, "Dead, dead, dead." "Let me tell you what will happen," Jon said. "The dead will rise again, in their hundreds and their thousands. They will rise as wights, with black hands and pale blue eyes, and they will come for us." He pushed himself to his feet, the fingers of his sword hand opening and closing. "You have my leave to go." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 4 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: It's difficult to say you want peace and a general amnesty with the wildlings, then pick and choose which ones to let in. It would hardly build trust amongst the wildlings if Jon let some in, and left the rest to the Others. Is it? Like, you could be in favor of taking in some refugees from Syria, and letting in known jihadists. And Weeper doesn't even have trust generally among the wildling leaders. I don't think there'd be much outcry of having not sent him an invitation. Like, they already see Mance's inner circle and its followers having been granted sanctuary; they'd know Jon's offer is genuine. But, really what's the actual risk in letting him in? How hard would it be to put down the wolf if they get in the house? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Is it? Like, you could be in favor of taking in some refugees from Syria, and letting in known jihadists. And Weeper doesn't even have trust generally among the wildling leaders. I don't think there'd be much outcry of having not sent him an invitation. Like, they already see Mance's inner circle and its followers having been granted sanctuary; they'd know Jon's offer is genuine. He's not just letting in refugees though, he's actively trying to recruit people and make an alliance with them - the wildlings need as much convincing as the Nights Watch do. When people are desperately trying to gain access to your country, you can be selective. When you are trying really hard to convince them, less so. The Weeper is the leader of one of the main factions of the wildlings that remains, Jon needs to win him to win his followers. He's negotiating an alliance with the leaders of a whole people, he doesn't get to choose who those leaders are, the Free Folk do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 6 hours ago, Brannis the Mannis said: This is just a completely stupid decision on his part. The Weeper is shown to have recently killed several of the rangers Jon sent beyond the Wall, and openly mocked their deaths by planting their heads in plain view. Letting in Tormund was smart, because he was willing to have peace and work with Jon. No way is he ever going to work together with the NW, and even if he did agree to it, nobody would feel safe with him around. Not one of Jon's smarter moments. No, it isn't. It's actually the only way to do it if it's going to work. And Jon explains why. “Jon did not deny it. “Tormund says the Weeper means to try the Bridge of Skulls again.” The Old Pomegranate touched his scar. He had gotten it defending the Bridge of Skulls the last time the Weeping Man had tried to cut his way across the Gorge. “Surely the lord commander cannot mean to allow that … that demon through as well?” “Not gladly.” Jon had not forgotten the heads the Weeping Man had left him, with bloody holes where their eyes had been. Black Jack Bulwer, Hairy Hal, Garth Greyfeather. I cannot avenge them, but I will not forget their names. “But yes, my lord, him as well. We cannot pick and choose amongst the free folk, saying this one may pass, this one may not. Peace means peace for all." If the Weeper doesn't want to compromise, he can stay north of the Wall. And if he comes south and doesn't stick to the agreement he's a dead man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 3 hours ago, Back door hodor said: I have to say I kinda agree with the OP on this one, and I am no Jon hater really. The simple reality is that though the watch does need more men to man the wall, They clearly do not have the resources to take in every wildling north of the wall, even with the Iron banks loan. They can barely afford to feed Stannis and his men. The reality is, the NW doesn't have the resources to take in 10 people at the moment, let alone thousands. But it doesn't matter, because not only they have to man the Wall and defend the realms of men, it is the right thing to do. To leave all those people north of the Wall under the current circumstances is wrong, immoral, and cowardly. Also, the argument that the NW would still be unable to feed and clothe everyone is a fallacy. We don't know how much Jon borrowed, we are not privy to the details. Jon thinks about how much this loan will cost the NW: “A long hard winter will leave the Watch so deep in debt that we will never climb out, Jon reminded himself, but when the choice is debt or death, best borrow.” Note that he thinks the longer winter lasts, the more indebted the Watch will be. So, it's not like he borrowed a fixed sum, but rather a sort of line of credit w/ the IB, and that should mean that they will have the resources they need. 3 hours ago, Back door hodor said: Jon could have afforded to be a little more selective in who he let through the wall and still accomplished his objective of manning the wall. Maybe. If his sole purpose was to man the Wall. But Jon is doing his job, he is defending the realms of men. To be honest, I find the idea of a selective cherry-picking amnesty rather repulsive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 2 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: He's not just letting in refugees though, he's actively trying to recruit people and make an alliance with them - the wildlings need as much convincing as the Nights Watch do. When people are desperately trying to gain access to your country, you can be selective. When you are trying really hard to convince them, less so. The Weeper is the leader of one of the main factions of the wildlings that remains, Jon needs to win him to win his followers. He's negotiating an alliance with the leaders of a whole people, he doesn't get to choose who those leaders are, the Free Folk do. But, what is the risk of if Weeper simply renegades once inside? The man does not seem to be interested in ceasing his raider lifestyle nor do the other wildling leaders Jon has talked to about him really think it's a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: But, what is the risk of if Weeper simply renegades once inside? The man does not seem to be interested in ceasing his raider lifestyle nor do the other wildling leaders Jon has talked to about him don't really think it's a good idea. No wildling has ever said that jon shouldn t let the weeper through. If the weeper doesn t keep his word then jon can either kill the hostages he will demand the weeper or simply kill the man... And jon might want more garanties from the weeper than tormund... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 4 minutes ago, divica said: No wildling has ever said that jon shouldn t let the weeper through. If the weeper doesn t keep his word then jon can either kill the hostages he will demand the weeper or simply kill the man... And jon might want more garanties from the weeper than tormund... Good point. If the man is serious, he'd concede to the demands of some hostages(perhaps of his own close kin). If worse comes to worse I don't think Jon has it in him to massacre women and children but, the threat of doing so alone if Weeper acts up could make the Weepers' men rebel against him to save their loved ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 12 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: But, what is the risk of if Weeper simply renegades once inside? The man does not seem to be interested in ceasing his raider lifestyle nor do the other wildling leaders Jon has talked to about him really think it's a good idea. There's a risk involved, of course. There are plenty of other wildlings about whom this could be said as well, but Jon's not in a position to start separating different individuals off and picking and choosing between them. A large number of wildlings have decided to follow the Weeper. Along with Tormund the he is the most significant wildling leader remaining, and if Jon wants to do a deal with the wildlings he has to reach out to the Weeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 26 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: There's a risk involved, of course. There are plenty of other wildlings about whom this could be said as well, but Jon's not in a position to start separating different individuals off and picking and choosing between them. A large number of wildlings have decided to follow the Weeper. Along with Tormund the he is the most significant wildling leader remaining, and if Jon wants to do a deal with the wildlings he has to reach out to the Weeper. Completely reasonable. But, further talks cannot proceed if the stipulation of hostages of a significant percentage of the women(maybe just girls)/and children/elderly are first supplied in good faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandrax Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 44 minutes ago, divica said: If the weeper doesn t keep his word then jon can either kill the hostages he will demand the weeper or simply kill the man... I doubt that the Weeper have anyone he care about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 12 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Completely reasonable. But, further talks cannot proceed if the stipulation of hostages of a significant percentage of the women(maybe just girls)/and children/elderly are first supplied in good faith. Jon took hostages from Tormand so the Weeper could expect a similar one. However, I think events have overtaken this part of Jon's plan, and I think it's pretty clear that the Weeper wasn't interested in playing anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 7 minutes ago, Kandrax said: I doubt that the Weeper have anyone he care about. But his followers likely might not be so blasie about their sons and daughters and father's being butchered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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