House Frey should be respected (part 2)

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, Agent Orange said:

Making an alliance with Robb will only be safe if the Lannisters are completely wiped out.  The Freys had little choice because Robb arrived at their doorsteps with thousands of armed northmen.  If Walder had refused and the Tullys are still standing when the war ended, there would be hell coming their way for staying neutral, which could be seen from Tully side as the equivalent of siding with the Lannisters.  So when Robb announced his plans to retake the north, those who supported him must have started to panic because Tywin is still alive and hell is coming their way.  It was for the best interest of their families that the Freys and the Westerlings jumped sides.  Robb may have been a good general but he was inadequate as a leader.  

“For a moment her anger flared. “If you were strong enough to climb your own battlements, Lord Frey, you would see that my son has twenty thousand men outside your walls.”
“They’ll be twenty thousand fresh corpses when Lord Tywin gets here,” the old man shot back. “Don’t you try and frighten me, my lady. ”

------

“One glance was sufficient to tell Catelyn that the castle would not be taken by storm.”

“The Greatjon began to curse and swear as soon as he saw what awaited them. Lord Rickard Karstark glowered in silence. “That cannot be assaulted, my lords,” Roose Bolton announced.”

“Nor can we take it by siege, without an army on the far bank to invest the other castle, even if we had the time. Which, to be sure, we do not.”

“I must have that crossing!” Robb declared, fuming. “Oh, our horses might be able to swim the river, I suppose, but not with armored men on their backs. We’d need to build rafts to pole our steel across, helms and mail and lances, and we don’t have the trees for that. Or the time. Lord Tywin is marching north …”

----------------

Walder was quite safe at this point. More beyond this, we know that the Mallisters are also still at home. They are the two farthest bannerman away from RR, and Mallisters are hardly out of favor. At this point Jaime has alreadyd taken RR as we know from Brynden, with Edmure and Hoster as hostages. Walder could easily have not let Robb pass and just let Tywin take care of them. He gambled (because he knew he was going to get a pardon either way).

2 hours ago, Agent Orange said:

It boils down to this.  The Freys had only one good option after Robb betrayed them and started making stupid decisions.  That was to change sides to ensure their safety and continued wealth.  No sense in risking it all and losing it all for the Starks, who clearly had no respect for the Frey family.   

They also could have remained neutral and approached Tywin for peace like the Pipers and Vances did.

2 hours ago, Agent Orange said:

To some eyes, the Freys will look like they have no honor.   But that's not enough to keep people from doing business with them.  Everybody has to cross the river and the Freys have the only bridge around.  It will be business as usual.  If anything, people will be sure to honor their deals with the Freys from this point forward.  

With most everyone still hating them. Imagine if they had refused Robb safe passage and he had to cross down by the Ruby Ford in between Gregor and Tywin/Tarly. That would have sent the same message and not sullied the name.

 

[Kandrax]

8 hours ago, Agent Orange said:

Walder and the Freys would have stuck with Robb if the Starks had honored their oaths and married one of the Frey girls. 

Martin said that they would still betray Robb, but less bloodier. My guess is that Robb, would be imprisoned.

[Darth Sidious]

On 2/20/2018 at 6:21 PM, Kandrax said:

Martin said that they would still betray Robb, but less bloodier. My guess is that Robb, would be imprisoned.

Can you provide a link to that?  I keep track of George Martin.  I do not recall him ever saying anything like that.  Please, provide a link.   I would appreciate it.   

 I do not believe the Freys would have betrayed Robb if that little dickhead had not broken his promise to marry one of Walder's daughters.  

[Darth Sidious]

On 2/20/2018 at 0:33 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

“For a moment her anger flared. “If you were strong enough to climb your own battlements, Lord Frey, you would see that my son has twenty thousand men outside your walls.”
“They’ll be twenty thousand fresh corpses when Lord Tywin gets here,” the old man shot back. “Don’t you try and frighten me, my lady. ”

------

“One glance was sufficient to tell Catelyn that the castle would not be taken by storm.”

“The Greatjon began to curse and swear as soon as he saw what awaited them. Lord Rickard Karstark glowered in silence. “That cannot be assaulted, my lords,” Roose Bolton announced.”

“Nor can we take it by siege, without an army on the far bank to invest the other castle, even if we had the time. Which, to be sure, we do not.”

“I must have that crossing!” Robb declared, fuming. “Oh, our horses might be able to swim the river, I suppose, but not with armored men on their backs. We’d need to build rafts to pole our steel across, helms and mail and lances, and we don’t have the trees for that. Or the time. Lord Tywin is marching north …”

----------------

Walder was quite safe at this point. More beyond this, we know that the Mallisters are also still at home. They are the two farthest bannerman away from RR, and Mallisters are hardly out of favor. At this point Jaime has alreadyd taken RR as we know from Brynden, with Edmure and Hoster as hostages. Walder could easily have not let Robb pass and just let Tywin take care of them. He gambled (because he knew he was going to get a pardon either way).

They also could have remained neutral and approached Tywin for peace like the Pipers and Vances did.

With most everyone still hating them. Imagine if they had refused Robb safe passage and he had to cross down by the Ruby Ford in between Gregor and Tywin/Tarly. That would have sent the same message and not sullied the name.

 

The Freys have more to lose than the Pipers and the Vances.  Many Riverland lords covet their lucrative strategic position.  Hell, I bet even the Tullys covet the Twins and the bridge.  I would not risk losing any of that just to remain loyal to Robb.  The Starks are not worth it.  The bridge and any of those assets are worth a lot more than the Starks.  

[Bernie Mac]

51 minutes ago, Agent Orange said:

Can you provide a link to that?  I keep track of George Martin.  I do not recall him ever saying anything like that.  Please, provide a link.   I would appreciate it.   

 I do not believe the Freys would have betrayed Robb if that little dickhead had not broken his promise to marry one of Walder's daughters.  

Sure they would have betrayed Robb, the majority of his vassals would have given how the situation was turning. This is what GRRM has to say on the subject of the Freys

"What if" questions are impossible to answer with any certainty... knowing old Lord Walder's character, it is likely he would have searched for some way to disentangle himself from a losing cause sooner or later, but his desertion would likely have taken a less savage form. The Red Wedding was motivated by his desire to wash out the dishonor that was done him...

To put this into perspective here is how GRRM explains why the Reach were talked down at the Siege of Storm's End in Robert's Rebellion

The modern concept of "total war" really didn't exist in the medieval period. Armies were personal, as were loyalties. The leader who wanted to fight on till the last drop of blood might well have found himself fighting on alone, since his vassals were likely to have better sense, and their levies were more likely to follow their own lord than the "general." Tyrell's surrender was pretty much warfare as usual. If he had =tried= to give battle to Ned in a lost cause, he might well have found his more opportunistic bannermen deserting to the other side.

The Blackwater was the death knell for Robb's campaign. Had Robb married a Frey he would still have began to see, at first, some Riverlords distancing themselves from him, the Frey's telling him that they would not be sending their troops North with him and maybe some Northern lords refusing to send troops back South should they have been successful in retaking the North. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

6 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sure they would have betrayed Robb, the majority of his vassals would have given how the situation was turning. This is what GRRM has to say on the subject of the Freys

"What if" questions are impossible to answer with any certainty... knowing old Lord Walder's character, it is likely he would have searched for some way to disentangle himself from a losing cause sooner or later, but his desertion would likely have taken a less savage form. The Red Wedding was motivated by his desire to wash out the dishonor that was done him...

To put this into perspective here is how GRRM explains why the Reach were talked down at the Siege of Storm's End in Robert's Rebellion

The modern concept of "total war" really didn't exist in the medieval period. Armies were personal, as were loyalties. The leader who wanted to fight on till the last drop of blood might well have found himself fighting on alone, since his vassals were likely to have better sense, and their levies were more likely to follow their own lord than the "general." Tyrell's surrender was pretty much warfare as usual. If he had =tried= to give battle to Ned in a lost cause, he might well have found his more opportunistic bannermen deserting to the other side.

The Blackwater was the death knell for Robb's campaign. Had Robb married a Frey he would still have began to see, at first, some Riverlords distancing themselves from him, the Frey's telling him that they would not be sending their troops North with him and maybe some Northern lords refusing to send troops back South should they have been successful in retaking the North. 

What exactly do you think is the likelihood of Robb even doing that? You know retaking the north?

[Bernie Mac]

Just now, Varysblackfyre321 said:

What exactly do you think is the likelihood of Robb even doing that? You know retaking the north?

With the majority of the Ironborn having left I think it was quite likely, but it would also have severely weakened him. Robb's plan of launching thousands at Moat Cailin in a bid to distract them would have cost him deeply and I have a feeling that Roose would have made sure that he, once again, would take as few casualties as possible. 

But there is also the chance that Roose would have tried to finish Robb either on the causeway (Robb wanted him to command the rear, giving him a decent chance of attacking Robb's force and trapping him between the Boltons and Ironborn) or after they had finished off the Ironborn and then attacked by Roose's force with Robb and the force with Ramsay still in the North. 

Either way, I don't see Robb having the strength to return South. His war against the Crown was finished. 

[Quoth the raven,]

34 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sure they would have betrayed Robb, the majority of his vassals would have given how the situation was turning. This is what GRRM has to say on the subject of the Freys

"What if" questions are impossible to answer with any certainty... knowing old Lord Walder's character, it is likely he would have searched for some way to disentangle himself from a losing cause sooner or later, but his desertion would likely have taken a less savage form. The Red Wedding was motivated by his desire to wash out the dishonor that was done him...

To put this into perspective here is how GRRM explains why the Reach were talked down at the Siege of Storm's End in Robert's Rebellion

The modern concept of "total war" really didn't exist in the medieval period. Armies were personal, as were loyalties. The leader who wanted to fight on till the last drop of blood might well have found himself fighting on alone, since his vassals were likely to have better sense, and their levies were more likely to follow their own lord than the "general." Tyrell's surrender was pretty much warfare as usual. If he had =tried= to give battle to Ned in a lost cause, he might well have found his more opportunistic bannermen deserting to the other side.

The Blackwater was the death knell for Robb's campaign. Had Robb married a Frey he would still have began to see, at first, some Riverlords distancing themselves from him, the Frey's telling him that they would not be sending their troops North with him and maybe some Northern lords refusing to send troops back South should they have been successful in retaking the North. 

What you're saying is basically, the Freys are no different from the other vassal lords in that they have more common sense than to die fighting for a lost cause and even much less reason to do so for the young shit who broke his sworn oath to them after the family bled for his cause.  You're saying anybody else in the same situation would have done as the Freys did.  I can agree in most cases.  But this is a complex story where the plot driver is emotion rather than cold logic.  There are exceptions.  Ofcourse, there is also what the Martells did.  They gave every outward appearance of loyalty to Robert but they were secretly working to take him down behind his back. 

 

[Bullrout]

On 2/5/2018 at 6:09 PM, Nowy Tends said:

What a pile of BS. Wrong on each point. I smell a troll…

The Frey are doomed. Do you think Manderly fears them when he insults them in Winterfell (Little Walder incident)?

I smell a Stark sympathizer who can't or won't see the truth.  The Freys are better off for killing Robb than they could have been if they had stayed loyal to that pretender.  i dare say Westeros as a whole is better off now that Robb is dead.  The Freys avoided having to pay war damages to the Lannisters, avoid the risk of losing lands, and got rewarded with valuable property in return.  And the Stark are dispossessed and scattered.  The fat seal in the north won't remain alive for much longer because Roose is already suspicious of him. 

[Nowy Tends]

4 hours ago, Bullrout said:

I smell a Stark sympathizer who can't or won't see the truth. 

I don't "sympathize" with fantasy fiction characters. I read to be disoriented, captivated, disturbed, interrogated, etc. and certainly not to become a fan of a character. Choosing sides in this kind of novel seems childish to me...

That some adult people can admit to being a fan of fantasy fictional characters (with magic, dragons, etc) is new to me, but that these people defend tooth and nail their favorites in total contradiction with the text seems to me so ridiculous and vain that to be frank I doubt their sincerity.

[Universal Sword Donor]

11 hours ago, Bullrout said:

I smell a Stark sympathizer who can't or won't see the truth.  The Freys are better off for killing Robb than they could have been if they had stayed loyal to that pretender.  i dare say Westeros as a whole is better off now that Robb is dead.  The Freys avoided having to pay war damages to the Lannisters, avoid the risk of losing lands, and got rewarded with valuable property in return.  And the Stark are dispossessed and scattered.  The fat seal in the north won't remain alive for much longer because Roose is already suspicious of him. 

They didn't have to kill him and totally destroy guest right in the process.

[Bernie Mac]

7 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

They didn't have to kill him

Obviously you are right, but they wanted to kill him and this was the best way for them to do so while minimising the casualties they would take. 

In this regard Walder and the Freys are similar to Robb, they choose a course of action to get revenge when they could have looked for a more peaceful situation.

7 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

and totally destroy guest right in the process.

Clearly they have not done this as AFFC shows Littlefinger using Guest Rights to keep himself in power from the Lords Declarant. 

Walder Frey has destroyed his reputation, the reputation of his entire House for the near future, possibly even forever, but he has not destroyed guest rights. This was not the first ever time guest rights had been broken, but it was likely the most high profile example of it.