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Frey Kings

House Frey should be respected (part 2)

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Last thread: 

 

 

They rose from nothing and didn't owe anyone blind allegiance. No legendary or historic roots like some other great houses in Westeros. But they should be proud that a commoner was able to rise to royalty and the the rest of the royalty class didn't accept them and continue to spit on them!!! Sure there are some bad apples but when you are sh_tted on for your entire existence what else would you expect?

 

Here's to House Frey!!! 

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1 hour ago, Frey Kings said:

Last thread: 

They rose from nothing and didn't owe anyone blind allegiance. No legendary or historic roots like some other great houses in Westeros. But they should be proud that a commoner was able to rise to royalty and the the rest of the royalty class didn't accept them and continue to spit on them!!! Sure there are some bad apples but when you are sh_tted on for your entire existence what else would you expect?Here's to House Frey!!! 

Traitors several times over. Ignoring the call of their liege. Entering open rebellion against their rightful king, three times. Violation of the guest right, murder and conspiracy. All because they feel inferior to the older houses that have a true legacy. Sad really. Lord walder will never be the grandfather of a king, and that is his only wish.  

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7 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Also, why does there need to be a second thread? The first one answered any question that could have been raised. 

Yes. What's the idea?

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9 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Also, why does there need to be a second thread? The first one answered any question that could have been raised. 

 

Someone needs to explain why intent to be hospitable is not guest right and then we need someone else to explain why the poison at the PW was meant for Tyrion

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18 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Also, why does there need to be a second thread? The first one answered any question that could have been raised.

But if we didn't take the bait and ignore it, it would eventually die on its own...

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Sure, Walder had every right to turn his back on the Starks after Robb's betrayal. Had he just closed the Twins to him at an inopportune time, and declared for House Lannister(wait, Baratheon) he'd probably he one of the most popular characters from the novels. There is such a thing as going overboard. (Looking at you also, Manderly)

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52 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

But if we didn't take the bait and ignore it, it would eventually die on its own...

and then what else would we do here while we wait several more years for winds?

 

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1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Also, why does there need to be a second thread? The first one answered any question that could have been raised. 

 

Prolly because the first one went over 400 posts and got locked. And someone felt the need to keep the Freys in play.

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1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Someone needs to explain why intent to be hospitable is not guest right and then we need someone else to explain why the poison at the PW was meant for Tyrion

And why dragons are aliens.

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4 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Traitors several times over. Ignoring the call of their liege. Entering open rebellion against their rightful king, three times

Meh. Tullys - they are traitors how many times over? Seven? Eight? Do they have a right to act surprised or indignant when it's finally their back that gets the knife? When their bannermen rebel against them and sell them out in full accordance to the example their liege lords set for them?

It's all the matter of timing. And winning, of course - maesters won't wax much about extinct Houses.

Edited by Myrish Lace

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9 minutes ago, Myrish Lace said:

Meh. Tullys - they are traitors how many times over? Seven? Eight? Do they have a right to act surprised or indignant when it's finally their back that gets the knife? When their bannermen rebel against them and sell them out in full accordance to the example their liege lords set for them?

It's all the matter of timing. And winning, of course - maesters won't wax much about extinct Houses.

Erm, Tully's were traitors exactly twice if my memory serves. Thrice if you count their rebellion against Harren.

During the Blackfyre Rebellions they stayed loyal.

During the Dance they were divided initially but later supported the rightful heir, Rhaenyra, and their candidate ended up on the throne.

During the Greyjoy Rebellion they stayed loyal and supported Daeron during his war against Dorne.

In contrast they rebelled against Aerys when they allied with Arryn and Stark and overthrew a tyrant. They then rebelled against Joffrey after he allowed Tywin's unjust attack on their lands to go unpunished.

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This are not my words: "New topic, new post.So a number of people in this thread and all over the Internet are convinced that the Boltons and the Freys were always going to betray Robb Stark the moment the opportunity arose. It's a position I don't necessarily hold. Anyway, I got some of my books shipped up from home this week, including ASOIAF and I've been going through them, and my opinion has only hardened. Anyway, I thought I'd provide my counterargument here.Before I go into detail, though, let me make this clear—I do not like the Boltons or the Freys, either as people or as characters. I have a degree of respect for Roose as a conspirator, but that's as far as it goes. The Freys are just a thoroughly miserable bunch, and Ramsay Snow is repellent both as a person and for what he brings to the story. I don't think that either family was ever genuinely loyal to Robb—they were in it for whatever they could grab and did everything in their power to keep their options open as the war progressed. What I don't accept is that there was a genuine conspiracy to get rid of Robb from day one. Taking a look at the evidence:Battle of the Green ForkI've seen a lot of people claim that Roose deliberately threw this battle. To which I can only say, do you know how hard that would be? To successfully lose the battle, yet maintain enough men to get out alive, would require that Roose know a whole lot more about the enemy's disposition than he can have, and probably that he already be in contact with Tywin—and if Tywin knew that Roose was going to try and lose the battle you'd think he'd inform some of his commanders about it. Instead Tywin's plan and his entire meeting with Tyrion and the others makes it fairly apparent that he knew nothing of what Roose was going to try and do.This is without getting into the fact that throwing a battle is a very difficult proposition, not least because once combat begins there's not much for the overall commander to do to effect the outcome. Sure, you can make sure that you don't give useful advice or orders when the unexpected happens, but planning on the unexpected happening is an iffy proposition. About all Roose could have done is make sure that the initial plan of attack was as bad as he possibly could—but doing that would see him running a chance of simply getting annihilated, losing his own command, and quite possibly ending up dead or captured. It'd make a risky operation—fighting a battle—even riskier. That's not to mention the distinct possibility that if he loses the battle that Robb will never give him another independent command again, which would make any advancement for House Bolton a pretty chancy subject.On top of that, for Roose to be deliberately losing the battle would require that he be prepared to move on his own, since there's no way that he could as of yet be in cahoots with Walder Frey or Tywin Lannister. Given Roose's inherent caution, that seems pretty unlikely.Deliberately losing at the Green Fork requires that Roose act alone, on a ridiculously chancy operation, on the murky hope that losing the battle will somehow be to his future benefit.HarrenhalI've also seen a lot of people point out that the presence of so many of the Freys at Harrenhal indicates that Roose and they are already plotting together against Robb. There's a problem with this to though—namely that if Roose is already trying to work out a deal with Tywin and Walder to remove Robb, then taking Harrenhal is pretty damn stupid.Roose got the Brave Companions to change sides, then used them to kill Tywin's castellan, Amory Lorch and the rest of the garrison that he left behind. If he's already in the midst of negotiations with Tywin, this is a pretty good way to sink them. Even if he were to assure Tywin that taking Harrenhal was something he had to do to show loyalty to Robb, there's a better than fair chance that it ends any conversation that he or Walder might be having with Tywin about an alliance. Roose's seizure of Harrenhal comes off like a significant victory for Robb, and it's a fairly embarrassing defeat for the Lannisters. Given how touchy Tywin is about appearances (and his deep reluctance to lose capable henchmen like Gregor Clegane or Amory Lorch) this would be a pretty idiotic thing for Roose to do.Now does that mean the presence of so many Freys at Harrenhal, and Roose's decision to marry one of the Freys is coincidental? Not at all. Both Roose Bolton and Walder Frey are men with an eye for the main chance, and I've no doubt that they would have seen the advantage of having a connection with one another in the event that things went poorly for Robb, or opportunities to advance their houses presented themselves. They are the second most powerful house in the north and the second most powerful house in the Riverlands after all, and an alliance is beneficial to both of them. I doubt, however, that there had been any talk of actually turning on Robb until after he broke the marriage promise. Both Walder and Roose are again, very cautious men, and feeling each other out on the issue would be something they'd be very careful about doing, especially when all things still appear to be going well for Robb. After the mutual catastrophes of Robb marrying Jeyne and the burning of Winterfell is probably the first time that either of them could have felt secure approaching the other about turning an alliance to advance their houses into an alliance for treachery.The sack of WinterfellThis happens after Robb breaks the marriage promise and so it's a lot more reasonable to think that Roose ordered it. Supporters of the notion that he did often point to the fact that Ramsay tells his men to spare the Freys when torching the place, something that seems out of character for him to do otherwise. However, there's still some problems with that scenario. First off, as far as Roose knows, Ramsay is dead and has been for quite some time. His death was widely reported, and nobody, including Roose, has any way to know about Ramsay and Reek's clothing swap, or the fact that the "Reek" in Winterfell's dungeon is actually Ramsay Snow. There is really no way for Roose and Ramsay to have planned the attack on Winterfell between them.Now, Roose could have sent a message to the Dreadfort to tell whatever men he left there to get ready to attack Winterfell, and Ramsay could have then arrived in time to intercept it after Theon released him, but even then, that's ignoring that Roose does not have any information on how many men Theon has inside Winterfell. There's no way for him to know how many troops Theon has brought with him, or, for that matter, how many Ser Roderick Cassel has available to fight Theon with. Jumping into that situation without all the information at hand would be risky at best, insane at worst. For all Roose knowns, Ser Roderick has roused almost all the remaining northern garrisons, and Theon has half the Greyjoy fleet with him—in which case there'd be very little that 600 men from the Dreadfort could do.It's Ramsay who knows how many men are holding Winterfell and how many are besieging it, and who is in a position to gamble that a sneak attack on Ser Roderick's forces by the Bolton garrison will enable him to break the siege and then take Winterfell himself. It's Ramsay, not Roose, who has all the information, and it's well within Ramsay's character to take that sort of chance (the whole Reek impersonation is a similar sort of gamble if you think about it), banking on his father being impressed after the fact. As for sparing the Freys, one thing Ramsay absolutely would have heard about after returning to the Dreadfort is about his father's new marriage, and while he's a savage little bastard, he's not Joffrey—he'd understand that if he wants to avoid complicating his father's life farther, and thus losing the very respect he's trying to gain, that he'd better not ruin the alliance his father is building with Walder Frey.Personally, I think taking Winterfell was Ramsay's idea, not Roose's, and that his intention was to take the castle and present his father with a fait accompli. The Boltons have a long history of wanting to usurp the Stark's position in the North, and Ramsay may well have expected that by striking at the Stark capital he could accomplish a longtime Bolton goal, while putting his father in a position to have strike out against Robb.Long version short, I don't see evidence of a longstanding Bolton/Frey conspiracy. In fact, I often can't help but think that those who do see such a longstanding conspiracy are trying to absolve Robb of any blame for destroying his own political alliance. I think that, whatever Roose Bolton and Walder Frey might have thought about, or said to one another, that until Robb married Jeyne he had a chance to keep them loyal. His decision to insult the Freys will be what turned Walder against him, and that in turn will have given Roose the opportunity for betrayal himself—an opportunity he's then forced to seize when Ramsay goes offscript and takes Winterfell.""

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