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Frey Kings

House Frey should be respected (part 2)

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On 2/5/2018 at 5:12 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The man is genuinely unhinged and as bitter and gross as Lord Frey. With all that hate where he could make time for fear? Not to say they should fear the Freys; so long as they don't go to a wedding hosted by them.

When did he slaughter 3500 men under the guise of hospitality? Did I miss that? I don't remember him extorting Robb for men or Catelyn and Brynden for passageway when they debarked at White Harbor.

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31 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

When did he slaughter 3500 men under the guise of hospitality? Did I miss that? I don't remember him extorting Robb for men or Catelyn and Brynden for passageway when they debarked at White Harbor.

Do you not think he would if given the opportunity? Slaughter every Frey and man involved in his son's death in anyway possible?

IMHO the Wyman we see in Dance is all about vengeance, killing, through whatever means, the people responsible for his son's death. The Frey's have no one to blame but themselves and have it coming, but I don't think that changes the fact that Wyman is unhinged, bitter and gross. 

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2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

When did he slaughter 3500 men under the guise of hospitality? Did I miss that? I don't remember him extorting Robb for men or Catelyn and Brynden for passageway when they debarked at White Harbor.

A.) Expecting payment to the use of their bridge isn't something the Freys should be faulted for-they've no obligation to assist Robb's rebellion in anyway by virtue of him having been related to their lord paramount. B.) Manderly literally fed a pregnant woman and her kin the murdered remains of their relatives just to get off on the sight; and he's made perfectly clear on his comments of Little Walder he doesn't discriminate when it comes to Freys; they all deserve to die.

The guy isn't a hero, or particularly benighn. He like lord Walder is a gross and vengenful man.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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I doubt that Wyman would have so much supporters, had he baked some Frey child who would make Tommen look like complete monster into pie.

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11 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

They don't preoccupy themselves with battle glories.  They avoid wars whenever they could but their less-competent and prideful liege lord Hoster keep dragging them into it

Steveon's proposal towards what sttrategy Robb's rebellion wasnt as glorious as Greatjon true but it was the most pragmatic. 

Hoster is ambitious. I wouldn't say he's less competent than the Freys however.

11 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

t's not Walder's fault that Lyanna ran off to break her oaths to Robert.  It's even less his fault that Hoster agreed to join the rebellion to get rid of a soiled daughter.  I hope you can see why Walder would have little respect for Hoster Tully.

Walder had owed Aerys more loyalty than he did Hoster; to chastize the man for not immediately getting along with what is clearly treason is woefully unfair true.

 

11 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Fast forward to the future and Tully's daughter makes trouble with the Lannisters.  Tully's son-in-law commits and admits to treason.  Tully's grandson starts a rebellion.  Tully's grandson starts knocking on his doorstep and tells him to cooperate in his rebellion or he'll attack.  

And Tully's grandson would die in the attempt-Lord Frey knows this so I say him using to the vantage point to coax a marriage between the Freys and the Starks isn't out of desperation. I will not chastize him for not immediately getting along with Robb's rebellion and I roll my eyes at Robb and his mother acting as if the Freys owe them anything at this point-but the Freys weren't that dire a threat. Robb could've  launch a siege but he'd fail miserably and Lord Frey knew this.  Frey made a conscious choice to commit treason to garner a marriage. Still, lord Frey was implicitly face-face  with the wrath of Robb's men should they refuse by Catelyn.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

A.) Expecting payment to the use of their bridge isn't something the Freys should be faulted for-they've no obligation to assist Robb's rebellion in anyway by virtue of him having been related to their lord paramount. B.) Manderly literally fed a pregnant woman and her kin the murdered remains of their relatives just to get off on the sight; and he's made perfectly clear on his comments of Little Walder he doesn't discriminate when it comes to Freys; they all deserve to die.

The guy isn't a hero, or particularly benighn. He like lord Walder is a gross and vengenful man.

I never said he was a hero. Your attempted equivocation is truly wonderful to behold

Edited by Universal Sword Donor

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6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Do you not think he would if given the opportunity? Slaughter every Frey and man involved in his son's death in anyway possible?

IMHO the Wyman we see in Dance is all about vengeance, killing, through whatever means, the people responsible for his son's death. The Frey's have no one to blame but themselves and have it coming, but I don't think that changes the fact that Wyman is unhinged, bitter and gross. 

Did he? I don’t see him doing so because he didn’t and isn’t. He certainly hasn’t tried to kill any of the Frey soldiers though he’s had the chance, the motive and the means.

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On February 7, 2018 at 8:10 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

I never said he was a hero. Your attempted equivocation is truly wonderful to behold

Or benighn. Apologies if you feel I misconstrued your arguments; I'm sure you'd your own disgust to what Manderly did and perhaps he is higher in the totem poll in terms of morality than Lord Walder in your mind; I simply don't see the level of difference between the horrendous of the two to be that good if there is any at all. They're both gross, vengeancful, old men that  think the slights against their family are so unique that it of itself somehow morally justifies whatever they do for vengeance. Manderly fed a pregnant woman her own kin and took pleasure  at the sight of an 8 year old boy having been murdered because they are Freys; the man is a monster.

Say what you will about Robb Stark zeal in getting revenge for the execution of his father; but at the very least he discrimates between hating house lanisters and hating everyone in it; like if the murdered corpse of Tommen was presented to him he wouldn't  go "it's actually a good thing-the boy won't grow up to be a lion", 

Men like Frey, Karstark and Manderly don't really make such distinctions.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Did he?

Did he what?

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

I don’t see him doing so because he didn’t and isn’t.

He didn't and isn't what? 

He certainly is bitter, unhinged and gross. You may disagree, and that is your prerogative, but someone who murders, cannibalises and then feeds makes other people cannibals certainly falls under all three in my opinion. Feel free to disagree, but I'm not seeing much of an argument from you on this. 

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

He certainly hasn’t tried to kill any of the Frey soldiers though he’s had the chance, the motive and the means.

When has he had the chance? He was scared to act at White Harbor and has been greatly outnumbered at Winterfell. 

When has he had the chance and the means?

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While definitely wrong for doing so the way they did the Freys took down the Starks if the Lannisters win that's what history will remember. That's quite a accomplishment if it holds up if anyone but Lannisters win Freys are in trouble could lose the Twins then.

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8 minutes ago, TPTWP Timett said:

While definitely wrong for doing so the way they did the Freys took down the Starks if the Lannisters win that's what history will remember. That's quite a accomplishment if it holds up if anyone but Lannisters win Freys are in trouble could lose the Twins then.

Why would Dany or Aegon take away their castle or the entirety of their lands? I don't think they'd approve of their actions but I also don't think they are going to be judging all the Houses of the realm on what they have been up to in the 20 years the Targaryens have been out of power or the actions, as terrible as they are, carried out during a civil war. Walder is likely to be dead before either secure the Throne. 

The Freys broke a custom made by the Gods, their souls will face punishment, their peers will be less likely to deal with them, their marriage dowries will become more expensive and only with Houses lower than them and should a Northern host be strong enough to attack they will face little support from other neutral Houses to help them. But I have seen no one in the South, not amongst the Faith or the other Riverland Houses, who have suggested they lose everything. 

There seems to be this train of thought that no matter who becomes the next monarch, that they will go out of their way to punish all the Stark enemies. The only likelihood of that happening is if a Stark becomes King and has both the influence and support to wipe out Houses on that level. I just don't see that happening. The realm, should it even survive intact this coming Winter, is not really going to be a position for these kind of actions. It is going to be too busy recovering. 

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5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Did he what?

He didn't and isn't what? 

He certainly is bitter, unhinged and gross. You may disagree, and that is your prerogative, but someone who murders, cannibalises and then feeds makes other people cannibals certainly falls under all three in my opinion. Feel free to disagree, but I'm not seeing much of an argument from you on this. 

When has he had the chance? He was scared to act at White Harbor and has been greatly outnumbered at Winterfell. 

When has he had the chance and the means?

When he’s been in winterfell with 300 Manderly men at arms. The Freys suspect him and his knights for a reason, mostly because they’re idiots but because he has the means, opportunity and motive.

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8 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Or benighn. Apologies if you feel I misconstrued your arguments; I'm sure you'd your own disgust to what Manderly did and perhaps he is higher in the totem poll in terms of morality than Lord Walder in your mind; I simply don't see the level of difference between the horrendous of the two to be that good if there is any at all. They're both gross, vengeancful, old men that  think the slights against their family are so unique that it of itself somehow morally justifies whatever they do for vengeance. Manderly fed a pregnant woman her own kin and took pleasure  at the sight of an 8 year old boy having been murdered because they are Freys; the man is a monster.

Say what you will about Robb Stark zeal in getting revenge for the execution of his father; but at the very least he discrimates between hating house lanisters and hating everyone in it; like if the murdered corpse of Tommen was presented to him he would go "it's actually a good thing-the boy won't grow up to be a lion", 

Men like Frey, Karstark and Manderly don't really make such distinctions.

Then why hasn’t Manderly set up or ordered the mass murder of the Frey men, or even a small subset of them 

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17 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Then why hasn’t Manderly set up or ordered the mass murder of the Frey men, or even a small subset of them 

He is simply not in a position to. His 300 are hugely outnumbered. 

19 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

When he’s been in winterfell with 300 Manderly men at arms.

And the Freys and Bolton's greatly outnumber them. I imagine Wyman has a strategy that will kill far more of his enemies so, logically, he is not going to risk it all on targeting one

19 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

The Freys suspect him and his knights for a reason, mostly because they’re idiots but because he has the means, opportunity and motive.

eh? How does that make them idiots? You claim they have both motive and means. Why would suspecting Wyman make them idiots?

 

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4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Why would Dany or Aegon take away their castle or the entirety of their lands? I don't think they'd approve of their actions but I also don't think they are going to be judging all the Houses of the realm on what they have been up to in the 20 years the Targaryens have been out of power or the actions, as terrible as they are, carried out during a civil war. Walder is likely to be dead before either secure the Throne. 

The Freys broke a custom made by the Gods, their souls will face punishment, their peers will be less likely to deal with them, their marriage dowries will become more expensive and only with Houses lower than them and should a Northern host be strong enough to attack they will face little support from other neutral Houses to help them. But I have seen no one in the South, not amongst the Faith or the other Riverland Houses, who have suggested they lose everything. 

There seems to be this train of thought that no matter who becomes the next monarch, that they will go out of their way to punish all the Stark enemies. The only likelihood of that happening is if a Stark becomes King and has both the influence and support to wipe out Houses on that level. I just don't see that happening. The realm, should it even survive intact this coming Winter, is not really going to be a position for these kind of actions. It is going to be too busy recovering. 

I doubt that Starks would wipe out any House.

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