House Frey should be respected (part 2)

[Kandrax]

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Biter is worse than Walder Frey.  

 

I must disaggree with this. Biter, unlike Walder, have good Freudian excuse for his actions. He was raised as animal by Rorge, who is definitely worse than Walder.

[Universal Sword Donor]

8 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Goddamned! It is LW not BW.

I get them confused, much like their on-page relatives.

[Universal Sword Donor]

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No. I would say Walder's act is far worse than anything Biter has done, but I would not say that makes Walder a worse person, just a person whose actions, due to his position, carries more weight than a commoner like Biter. 

For me personally, and I realise you are correct as this is a subjective matter and I'm not really trying to change your opinion just explain my own, I say motive and consistency come into it and Biter's motives to his victims or potential victims is worse than Walder's and Biter, as much as we know about him, has been a consistent murderer and rapist while the ancient Walder, up until the Red Wedding, biggest crime was being late for a battle. 

Yeah it's amazing what one horrific massacre can do to a guy's reputation

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'd have to know the crusader and what the crusader had done and what he was willing to do but saying that he'd have to be pretty bad to be worse than the King who could not be bothered to learn his subject's language. Richard 

Which subjects? The ones that spoke (old) English, Welsh, Gaelic, Occitan, Norman French, or French? At one point, I suppose the Cypriots spoke mostly Greek at that point, maybe some Aramaic.

You can condemn him for not spending much time in England, but when he had as much land and more people to defend from the French on the continent, it's kind of hard to condemn him for only speaking Occitan, Latin, and French. English monarchs didn't even learn English as a native language until near the end of the 1300s (Henry IV?). 

[Universal Sword Donor]

11 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yes you did lol. 

Like literaly try to explain how I misunderstood this:

Now I'm going to assume you've simply forgot about this; still I would hope you'd awknowlege it. 

That was a continuation of the point I've been making the entire time: He clearly has the means and motive to murder small groups or individual at will, as the Freys suspect. I either forgot to type that or just wasn't explicit enough. Mea culpa. 

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Yes some he can kill some before he loses his head and likely put his family at risk-he would kill all of them if he could-we know this because he thinks it's a good thing for the world when a 8 year old Frey dies-but he can't so he'll settle on making as many as them(Whether they be innocent or not) suffer for what had happened to his son.

Yeah and the best way to do this is not a massacre, it's to take them in the rear during a battle, which is 100% not the same as what Walder did and won't hurt innocent, unarmed people.

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If he is patient and not an idiot he won't risk his entire plan over raising suspicions just to kill some Freys that should be dead anyway when Manderly is in the position to strike without the cost of his life and possibly the security of his family. No one took out "Freys" little Walder was the only Frey  that has been been murdered thus far at Winterfell; and that resulted in a brawl to which Manderly got his throat slit because the Freys were suspicious of him from the start and they would point to him as the prime culprit. So no he can't likely kill with impunity.

Well yeah he can. There were 4-5 bodies turning up before whichever Walder fingered the Manderly men (falsely) and even then nothing would have happened if Manderly had kept his mouth shut.

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And I imagine it'd be a lot harder to get to them (discreetly)when they're surrounded by their men and constantly watched.

You can imagine quite a bit.

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No he has not had ample opportunity. He could have tried to kill Freys at winterfell and likely just die; his whole quest for revenge ruined because he was an idiot. Yes I'm sure if in the position to wipe them out suddenly he'd feel some compassion towards the innocent Freys that he didn't feel towards Walda(he delighted in her being tricked into canibalism as much her male kin-he will not pity her anymore when/if he has a chance to cleanse the land of Freys) when she ate her kin or little Walder's murdered corpse because he's a Frey the family that hurt him so this is "Justice" . 

Then please explain the 4-5 corpses that have been found in WF.

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Even your defense(which I don't buy) has him placing the cupabilty of other Freys actions on all Freys by extension-they just lost a nephew/cousin and by virtue of having been related to the guys who'd made mocked his son's death; because he holds the same contemp for all Freys.

My defense? How about his f*cking actions and words. I don't need to paint motivation over that. He clearly blames the Freys for the Red Wedding and killing his son. We don't know if he holds the same contempt for all Freys, the ones who perpetrated the acts, or perpetuated the lies about it.

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The man like Walder and Karstark is so vindictive they think whatever they do for buisness gives them a pass. He's a gross spiteful man. A monster.

He is indeed a grossly spiteful man. I have never denied that.

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It is obvious thd reason he hasn't killed them all is because he can't.

Even though the Freys believe he could kill someone them.

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I just don't see the fact he'd inability to do something he would makes him more moral than a person with the ability to do something and did. 

Actually doing something is worse than thinking about doing something. Please point to a moral or legal precedent that I am unaware of that equates the two. Ask the families and men who'd die if they'd prefer to have someone dream about the massacre or conspire to commit the massacre while failing OR actually die in the massacre.

There's your answer

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Ramsey is by no means more moral than Aegon by virtue of having killed less people than him.

Aegon was in open warfare. Ramsey is torturing people because he can in times of peace. Walder was not in open warfare. Pretty simple

[Bernie Mac]

31 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Yeah it's amazing what one horrific massacre can do to a guy's reputation

We are not talking about a guys reputation, we are talking about who we think is a worse person not who has the worst reputation. Walder deserves the worse reputation. but I don't think that automatically makes him worse than people whose reputation's are not as bad just because their crimes are not as well known. 

31 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

snip

You do realise I was being sarcastic, right? I don't really think the worst crime he ever committed was not knowing English?

[Universal Sword Donor]

58 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

We are not talking about a guys reputation, we are talking about who we think is a worse person not who has the worst reputation. Walder deserves the worse reputation. but I don't think that automatically makes him worse than people whose reputation's are not as bad just because their crimes are not as well known. 

Nor do I. I think the scope and results of his actions is what makes him worse.

58 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

You do realise I was being sarcastic, right? I don't really think the worst crime he ever committed was not knowing English?

Actually I didn't. I thought you were castigating him and tossing that in as an aside.

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Yeah and the best way to do this is not a massacre, it's to take them in the rear during a battle, which is 100% not the same as what Walder did and won't hurt innocent, unarmed people.

This is the most he could do at the moment-obviously killing them all would be be the best way to hurt them but he does not have that chance (yet at least). 

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Well yeah he can. There were 4-5 bodies turning up before whichever Walder fingered the Manderly men (falsely) and even then nothing would have happened if Manderly had kept his mouth shut.

No he most likely can't. The risk of actually getting caught is ultimately too great. He would be the prime suspect (after the Freys are on high alert about him for "losing" their cousins), even if the one he sent some how was able to get alone with a Walder and kill him and not get immediately caught. 

The bloodshed was coming either way once the corpse of their little cousin was presented to them; Manderly was the most likely culprit already so they pointed to him. 

And he got his throat slit as result even though he wasn't even the one responsible.

The risk for him was simply too great for him to act against the Freys so soon. 

Hench holding off killing those he'd kill when his plan comes into fruition.

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

You can imagine quite a bit.

Yes. Please explain how I would imagine wrong in this case.

 

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Then please explain the 4-5 corpses that have been found in WF.

Explain what? That Mance and his spear wives were able to murder a few no name soldiers a squire and a personal favorite wretch of Ramsey's without getting caught largely because no one would be looking to them in the first place so they'd have far less risk being caught than any of the prime suspects? 

 

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

My defense? How about his f*cking actions and words. I don't need to paint motivation over that. He clearly blames the Freys for the Red Wedding and killing his son. We don't know if he holds the same contempt for all Freys, the ones who perpetrated the acts, or perpetuated the lies about it.

Yes about his fucking actions and words. Which clearly shows he holds all Freys as being worthy of suffering for what their house had done.

Little Walder deserved to die because he was a Frey. 

He was ecstatic about seeing Fat Walda eat her kin as he was the rest of her male relatives.  

Its unlikely he holds the same level for all Freys; doubtless he'd hate some more than others; what is clear is that he sees that all Freys deserve to die.

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Even though the Freys believe he could kill someone them.

 

The Freys believe him to be a threat.Not a rebuttal to what I said. 

 

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Actually doing something is worse than thinking about doing something. Please point to a moral or legal precedent that I am unaware of that equates the two. Ask the families and men who'd die if they'd prefer to have someone dream about the massacre or conspire to commit the massacre while failing OR actually die in the massacre.

Ask the victims of run of the mill psychopaths like Biter if he's a better person than a person who actually has the ability of killing more and did.

The fact Biter cannot/has not killed as many as Tywin doesn't make him "better" morally.

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Aegon was in open warfare. Ramsey is torturing people because he can in times of peace. Walder was not in open warfare. Pretty simple

Aegon started wars that killed thousands and wiped out entire families because he  wanted an ego boost for his family.  But yes for his context however that stuff is socially acceptable; what Ramsey did not much so as well Walder. 

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

42 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

This is the most he could do at the moment-obviously killing them all would be be the best way to hurt them but he does not have that chance (yet at least). 

No he most likely can't. The risk of actually getting caught is ultimately too great. He would be the prime suspect (after the Freys are on high alert about him for "losing" their cousins), even if the one he sent some how was able to get alone with a Walder and kill him and not get immediately caught. 

Other than the 4-5 people who died. The Freys already highlighted him as the prime suspect and yet the killings continued.

42 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The bloodshed was coming either way once the corpse of their little cousin was presented to them; Manderly was the most likely culprit already so they pointed to him. 

Maybe. I don't see Hosteen drawing his sword before that. In fact no one had!

42 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And he got his throat slit as result even though he wasn't even the one responsible.

The risk for him was simply too great for him to act against the Freys so soon. 

Hench holding off killing those he'd kill when his plan comes into fruition.

It's not. 4-5 people died before Walder, he was declared a suspect by the intelligent Aenys and subsequently rejected.

42 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yes. Please explain how I would imagine wrong in this case.

Head canon? I don't really know how to explain why it would be hard to murder some people walking around with no company. It's not as if the Freys didn't suffer a murder either. Aenys' squire was killed in addition to two Bolton men, who are going to be the most numerous men there. So clearly someone can get away with killing them and a dismissal from the majority of the allies about him or his men doing it occurs. 

42 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Explain what? That Mance and his spear wives were able to murder a few no name soldiers a squire and a personal favorite wretch of Ramsey's without getting caught largely because no one would be looking to them in the first place so they'd have far less risk being caught than any of the prime suspects? 

If no one was paying attention to them, that means no one was paying attention to the people they killed. Do you think everyone is following every single Manderly knight or soldier at all hours of the day?

42 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yes about his fucking actions and words. Which clearly shows he holds all Freys as being worthy of suffering for what their house had done.

Little Walder deserved to die because he was a Frey. 

Well no, that's not what he says:

“So young,” said Wyman Manderly. “Though mayhaps this was a blessing. Had he lived, he would have grown up to be a Frey.”

Maybe you'll take umbrage with him using "mayhaps" though, since that is a particularly Frey word of choice. Either way his words clearly show he doesn't consider him to be a Frey, so why would he want them dead?

42 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He was ecstatic about seeing Fat Walda eat her kin as he was the rest of her male relatives.  

 

42 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Its unlikely he holds the same level for all Freys; doubtless he'd hate some more than others; what is clear is that he sees that all Freys deserve to die.

You still haven't cited or explained how mocking a child's death or hidden, unknown alleged cannibalism makes it clear he wants to see all Freys die, let alone that he would do it:

“The fat man would like to kill us all, I do not doubt, but he does not have the belly for it, for all his girth. ”

42 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The Freys believe him to be a threat.Not a rebuttal to what I said. 

They believe him to be a threat. Everyone else poopoos it and tells the Freys they are idiots. That's the rebuttal

42 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Ask the victims of run of the mill psychopaths like Biter if he's a better person than a person who actually has the ability of killing more and did.

That's irrelevant to the question. We were talking about Wyman and Walder. Action and death versus imagined violence

[Kandrax]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Ask the victims of run of the mill psychopaths like Biter if he's a better person than a person who actually has the ability of killing more and did.

The fact Biter cannot/has not killed as many as Tywin doesn't make him "better" morally.

Biter's mind was screwed by his upbringing. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

3 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Biter's mind was screwed by his upbringing. 

WHOA WHOA WHOA just because a man was muted and brought up as a fighter of feral dogs and bears doesn't mean he's not well-adjusted.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Other than the 4-5 people who died. The Freys already highlighted him as the prime suspect and yet the killings continued

Yes they did. Which did him no favors.

 

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Maybe.I didn't 't see Hosteen drawing his sword before that. In fact no one had!

No one had yey. Any reason Manderly would give wouldn't have cooled them down.

 

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

It's not. 4-5 people died before Walder, he was declared a suspect by the intelligent Aenys and subsequently rejected.

4-5 underlings with no real import to the Freys died before their little cousin was murdered to which the outrage of which had resulted in a heated brawl to which ended  in Manderly getting his throat slit. Killing Freys at this point would be a needless risk that could jepordarize everything that has been planned.

 

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Head canon? I don't really know how to explain why it would be hard to murder some people walking around with no company. It's not as if the Freys didn't suffer a murder either. Aenys' squire was killed in addition to two Bolton men, who are going to be the most numerous men there. So clearly someone can get away with killing them and a dismissal from the majority of the allies about him or his men doing it occurs. 

They're not walking around with no company. Doubtless they're with some of the men at arms they brought and they would have a notable presence-considerably more risk than murderering a squire or two random soldiers working under house Bolton. Mance and the spear wives chose them specifically because they'd be easier to kill than a direct family member of the Freys or Boltons 

Much easier to kill their underlings.

 

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

If no one was paying attention to them, that means no one was paying attention to the people they killed. Do you think everyone is following every single Manderly knight or soldier at all hours of the day.

 Manderly is under suspicion. He has attention. Do you think Manderly goes anywhere without his guards? Do you think Manderly would be so stupid too not realize he being the one to have "lost" two Freys on his way to Winterfell could get a lot of scrutiny for the murders. People point out Manderly isn't the only suspect in regards to the murders of winterfell-if one or two actual Freys are found to be murdered fingers are going to point to him-which happened. 

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

no, that's not what he says:

“So young,” said Wyman Manderly. “Though mayhaps this was a blessing. Had he lived, he would have grown up to be a Frey.”

Maybe you'll take umbrage with him using "mayhaps" though, since that is a particularly Frey word of choice. Either way his words clearly show he doesn't consider him to be a Frey, so why would he want them dead?

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

what he says:

“So young,” said Wyman Manderly. “Though mayhaps this was a blessing. Had he lived, he would have grown up to be a Frey.”

Maybe you'll take umbrage with him using "mayhaps" though, since that is a particularly Frey word of choice. Either way his words clearly show he doesn't consider him to be a Frey, so why would he want them dead?

This seems to be playing semantics. His words show he considers even the children of the Freys should be destroyed-he views them a sickness that is better to taken care of at the earliest stages before it progresses-the only medicine is death.

 

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

You still haven't cited or explained how mocking a child's death or hidden, unknown alleged cannibalism makes it clear he wants to see all Freys die, let alone that he would do it:

Proclaiming it is blessing that 8 year old boy was murdered on account of his blood shows he sees every Frey-whether they be a child or a woman needs to die. Please don't quibble about this little detail of him not seeing Little Walder as a "real" Frey. 

 

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

That's irrelevant to the question. We were talking about Wyman and Walder. Action and death versus imagined violence

We're taking about whether what a person would do something if given the means to do it is as immoral a person a person who did have the means and do it. That the most serious of the persons crimes or they're quantity gives credence to this idea of a man being more intrinsically immoral than another.

Is biter truly better as person  than Tywin in your mind for the fact he hasn't been able to be responsible for  thousands of deaths as Tywin has?

[AlaskanSandman]

On 2/4/2018 at 11:19 AM, Frey Kings said:

Last thread: 

 

 

They rose from nothing and didn't owe anyone blind allegiance. No legendary or historic roots like some other great houses in Westeros. But they should be proud that a commoner was able to rise to royalty and the the rest of the royalty class didn't accept them and continue to spit on them!!! Sure there are some bad apples but when you are sh_tted on for your entire existence what else would you expect?

 

Here's to House Frey!!! 

Pointed this out else where and may interest you into House Frey, there purpose maybe, and their allegiance as it was supposed to be.

400BC-  Arlan III conquers Riverlands                                       Osric Stark brother or son of King in North made L.C. of Watch.

340BC-                                                                                       Osric dies.

300Bc-                                                                                       Hardhome 

                                                                                                   Valyria takes dragonstone

                                                                                                   Freys installed at Neck, choke hold on River passage.

100BC- Arrec vs Harwyn takes Riverlands                               Doom of Valyria

42BC-   Death of Halleck, Rule of Harren

Year Zero -   Harren at God's Eye, Bro at BlackGate.               Aegon I conquers Westeros.

Faith uprising in years between.

62ac- Bael the Bard         Gael the Winter Child born to Alysanne at Queen's Crown.

92ac- war with Bael and his son.  Jaehaerys and Alysanne fight at Wall. Close Nightfort.

          Succession crisis of 92ac.  Rhaenys passed over

101- Succession crisis of 101- Laenor passed over for Viserys.

130- Dance of Dragons when Viserys dies after choosing Rhaenyra as heir despite council of 101. Rhaenyra vs Aegon III.

With the Iron born taking the Riverlands after, House Frey may have cut most of the Iron born forces from being able to cut up river via boat and invade the North. 

Iron Born still manage to conquer alot of Westeros though before Aegon arrives and breaks them. 

[Kandrax]

10 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

WHOA WHOA WHOA just because a man was muted and brought up as a fighter of feral dogs and bears doesn't mean he's not well-adjusted.

Well-adjusted? He was forced to fight dogs and bears cubs until he went insane.

[Blackfish Tully]

On 2/12/2018 at 6:39 PM, Bernie Mac said:

That is why I did specify in my post "from what we have seen". His actions and demeanour since Cat's death in ASOS, AFFC and TWOW sample chapters do not seem like the actions of someone who is heartbroken or even that concerned with her passing.

It would be one thing if Cat had simply died from some disease or an accident but for her to be brutally murdered has to have some affect on Littlefinger . She was the love of his life and for him to just ignore the fact she was murdered by Freys just seems hard to believe. 

 

On 2/12/2018 at 6:39 PM, Bernie Mac said:

 He has shown zero inclination in controlling the Riverlands, accepting the Crown's decision to appoint whoever they want to rule Harrenhal (and as a result the Riverlands itself) while we have seen him concerned with what the other Vale lords do with their resources and we have seen him actively courting and bribing a great deal of them. 

 

. Letting the Lannister's do the hard work of getting the Riverlands under control and watching them burn up their resources in doing it  while he stays in the Vale and conserves his resources and bides his time is exactly what you would expect Littlefinger to do . Littlefinger will wait till the Lannisters army is out of the Riverlands and the Riverlords have had enough of the Freys "ruling" them before he makes his move , i would bet that he has plenty of sources in the Riverlands feeding him information so he can exploit the ongoing situation to his advantage when he is good and ready .  

[Universal Sword Donor]

5 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Well-adjusted? He was forced to fight dogs and bears cubs until he went insane.

Assuming that anyone brought up feral and in a bear fight club is not well adjusted, ser, is just plain out discrimination. Rorge might be maladjsuted but we need a maester and septon to confirm it.

[Kandrax]

6 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Rorge might be maladjsuted but we need a maester and septon to confirm it.

Rorge? I was talking about Biter.

[Universal Sword Donor]

4 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Rorge? I was talking about Biter.

Him too

[Kandrax]

1 minute ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Him too

Now, i'm confused what you want  to say.

[Universal Sword Donor]

11 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Now, i'm confused what you want  to say.

Assuming that anyone brought up feral and in a bear fight club is not well adjusted, ser, is just plain out discrimination. Rorge or Biter might be maladjusted but we must needs get a maester and septon to confirm it.

[Kandrax]

7 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Rorge

Rorge wasn't brought to fight dogs.