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Sorcerers and Swords


Curled Finger

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11 hours ago, Faera said:

Slightly OT but if Hodor is a descendant of Dunk, and perhaps Brienne is too, they could be third cousins or something! I dunno I just really like that for some reason.

Martin has confirmed that Brienne is indeed Dunk's descendant. And I am sold on Hodor being another one, especially after Bran's visions in ADwD. :)

 

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14 hours ago, Faera said:

I think you both make a good point here. Brynden was legitimised and was going to the Wall. They weren't to have known that he would go missing on a ranging and never be seen again, so the Crown might well have expected to get the sword back once he died.

Of course, I am bias as I really want Dark Sister to a.) Appear in the story and b.) Be used by Bran-Hodor at some point (before ideally being gifted to Meera, the antithesis to a 'Dark Sister'), in case my long post didn't make that clear. ;)

Slightly OT but if Hodor is a descendant of Dunk, and perhaps Brienne is too, they could be third cousins or something! I dunno I just really like that for some reason.

Ah, what you need m'dear is a tier system. I hate quantifying but when you work in a university as I do, you do or cry! Don't treat it like an exact science because this is book club but it might be a fun thought experiment, like people who do tiers to work out who the best fighters are. You can make your clauses however you want based on what you think is important to consider. I would narrow the list down based on certain criteria like (off the top of my head):

- Logistics: is the character close to the last known or probable locations for Dark Sister or is there a reasonable way they could obtain the sword from someone who has likely access to the sword?

- Viability: can this character fight or are they trained in arms or has used a sword/has need of a sword and could use it?

- Need: this refers to situational and personal need. How likely is this character to require a weapon like Dark Sister? (i.e. If dragonsteel = Valyrian steel, are they front line in the war with the Others). Does Dark Sister have attributes that are benefiting this character? (i.e. It is smaller and lighter,  made for a woman's build).

- Theme: this is where your wizard stuff comes in! Does it make thematic sense for this character to wield Dark Sister?

...aaaaaaaaand so on.

So, in my list, someone like Daenerys might fit the thematic sense of a female Targaryen queen who rides a dragon and plans to conquer Westeros, as a "second Visenya" but it breaks down after that. She's unlikely to come across DS in an organic sense, she is not trained in arms, and she doesn't need a sword because she rides Drogon now. I would rank Dany very, very low.

Compare to another wild card, Sarella. She is unlikely to come across the sword if BR has it but she might gain access to a reinforged/renamed DS if the Martells somehow got it after Summerhall. She used a long-range weapon so she has knowledge of arms - though I would argue one of her sisters - Obara, Nymeria or even Elia - feel more suited to a sword like Dark Sister simply due to her being more studious while they are more active warrior-like women. Sarella is unlikely to have a direct need while she has her bow... though if she comes face to face with some Iron Born... a Valyrian steel sword would be handy. Thematically, all you say is true. I would argue that we could also make the same case for a character like Theon Greyjoy.

In fact, now I think about it...

Theon is in the North with Stannis and not too far from the Wall. While unlikely to come across DS himself it is not beyond the realms of possibility that a character such as Bran or Meera to give him the sword if they returned. What did he pray to the Heart Tree (i.e. Bran) for? A sword and the chance to die as Theon. He was better known for his archery skills but Theon is undoubtedly trained in arms. He does have a need for a sword because, as we know, Ramsay took some of his fingers meaning that he might no longer be able to shot an arrow. Thematically, he is more in tune to the magic of the weirwood than some, he is a "crippled" archer, and he is a dark figure who committed terrible crimes against his foster family. He's not a sister but he is a "Dark Brother" in a way.

Wow, this is weirdly fun!

To me it isn't just about cool people swinging a famous sword but about a story but about what a sword might mean for them. Longclaw is a huge part of Jon's story, Oathkeeper is a huge part of Jaime/Brienne's story, and I've before it was reforged as Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, Ice was a huge part of Ned's character with his habit of cleaning it at the Godswood. 

I would agree that Meera is the frontrunner but I really, really like this weird idea I have of Bran-Hodor getting to use it first. Plus, after @kissdbyfire pointed out the possible Dunk connection... Yep, want it even more. Or ideally both in the long term.

If it is, then it would have to be Hodor's. The other swords are very new in comparison. It would be interesting if the reason that rusty old sword is so tough is because it was made to really, really last.

There is no way any of them were Dark Sister. The only way I could see that working is if it was somehow in Lyanna's tomb or something but seeing as Rhaegar never used Dark Sister, that is probably a piece of circumstantial proof that Bloodraven took it with him when he went to the Wall - since there is no evidence Aerys or Rhaegar ever used it.

I just think those swords are going to break. Perhaps, ironically, Hodor's old rusty blade will be the one to hold out the longest. The other swords all belonged to Rickard, Brandon and then the one Osha took was meant for Eddard's tomb.

My love for OLC is eternal, and is my love for his daughter who is one of my favourite characters.

Hey, you can read my Bran-Hodor theory post any time and tell me your thoughts. I might even want to expand it at some point... 

Faera, that was a lovely offering of thought organization.   We have many of the tiers you suggest thought out.    I was doing great before I joined the forum and became infected with so many people's excellent ideas and rationale.   Yep, before I began foraging here for likely suspects I didn't even have 10 hero companions.   It's a good predicament to be in.   And it is weirdly fun.  We've got spreadsheets and timelines.   We've got names and possible histories and backstories and this little chat here is a new twist in the road for me--the swords actually "belonging" to a certain type.   Oh, add all sorts of new intel about character classes from some D&D and WoW players.  So Dark Sister is a sorcerer's sword, for lack of a better, cooler way to say it.  On to Lady Forlorn!  I've no doubt made this thing far more difficult than needs be, but it sure is fun.   However, I really like the way you laid out the tiers.   May I use this suggestion for my notes to be referenced for future topics?  I will of course quote and be sure you are given due thanks.   I'm very interested in your Bran/Hodor ideas and sure hope you took the hint and made a link available!   If you ever want to join in behind the scenes in our quest for the perfect line up just drop Cridfea or me a PM.   

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2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Martin has confirmed that Brienne is indeed Dunk's descendant. And I am sold on Hodor being another one, especially after Bran's visions in ADwD. :)

 

Aren't there 4 characters who could be related to Dunc or is that a forum legend?    

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10 hours ago, Faera said:

Oh, it’s just my initial post to this thread so I might be using “theory” lightly at this point...^_^

It is only the seedling of a theory I have yet to develop properly on how Hodor fully becomes one of Bran’s skins and how they could change each other as a result. This post sort of touches on that but it mainly focuses on the thematic qualifiers for Bran-Hodor short becoming like a single person and how they could end up using Dark Sister.

Well, I thought that was great the 1st time, so blow it up, finish these thoughts so we can go on for weeks about it!   It's good stuff Faera.  

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9 hours ago, LynnS said:

 OK,  I see.  You don't have to have a fully development theory to start another thread.  You can explore an idea this way.  Lot's of people open threads for that purpose.

Make our smart friend understand, Lady! 

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7 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

For sure, I can totally see one of those COTF that were plugged into the weirwood as Brynden's own dream messenger.

As for Mormont, it really looks like he knew something in regards to the Long Night, perhaps some knowledge from his time under Qorgyle, who may have served with BR - his parlay with Tyrion just has this ominous tone hanging through it - note how this passage starts with Tyrion mentioning Jeor's dreams

"In your dreams," Tyrion echoed, thinking how badly he needed another strong drink.
 Mormont was deaf to the edge in his voice. "The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore."
This time Tyrion could not hold his tongue. "The fisherfolk of Lannisport often glimpse merlings."
"Denys Mallister writes that the mountain people are moving south, slipping past the Shadow Tower in numbers greater than ever before. They are running, my lord … but running from what?" Lord Mormont moved to the window and stared out into the night. "These are old bones, Lannister, but they have never felt a chill like this. Tell the king what I say, I pray you. Winter is coming, and when the Long Night falls, only the Night's Watch will stand between the realm and the darkness that sweeps from the north. The gods help us all if we are not ready."
"The gods help me if I do not get some sleep tonight. Yoren is determined to ride at first light." Tyrion got to his feet, sleepy from wine and tired of doom. "I thank you for all the courtesies you have done me, Lord Mormont."
"Tell them, Tyrion. Tell them and make them believe. That is all the thanks I need." He whistled, and his raven flew to him and perched on his shoulder. Mormont smiled and gave the bird some corn from his pocket, and that was how Tyrion left him.
 
So, we have mentions of The Old Bear's dreams and sleep, both of which make me think of our beloved Lord Rivers. Note the "edge" in Jeor's voice, as well as mentioning both the Long Night and the Gods - it certainly sounds like he believes in the Others. 
 
What is even more odd is how Mormont ends this exchange in which he was clearly feeling fear - he smiles and feeds the raven corn.
Strange, that the ever gruff Lord Commander would show rare weakness and fragility to a stranger like Tyrion, who he was also technically trying to haggle with for political/financial help, only to end the scene by smiling at that "god forsaken" bird. 
I think there's a strong chance Mormont was visited in his dreams by Bloodraven, judging by The Old Bear's somewhat erratic behaviour during this parlay, aswell as the mentions of sleep and dreams.
 
CF, in regards to Bloodraven taking Dark Sister North with him, might it be possible that Egg - another sorcerer -  allowed it because Brynden had somehow made him a believer in the Long Night? If BR's greensight had developed by this point then me night have known much about the wars to come. With BR telling Egg about the wars to come (and maybe even taking him to the Godswood for proof) we could have a decent reason for why Aegon V sent his insanely useful cousin to The Wall - beyond "punishing" him for the Blackfyre murder.
 
Another reason Egg might have allowed Dark Sister to go North is that he might have been aware of Dragon Steel's power against the White Walkers - if Rivers knew he was going to need to go beyond the Wall then a sword like DS would be invaluable.
It might explain why Egg was so obsessed with hatching Dragons too.
 
One more thing my friend, what is your opinion on that Valyrian Arakh? Who might have made it? The Dothraki first rode out of the wastes after Valyria's Doom, so I wonder if this sword was the first ever to be shaped in the fashion most associated with the Horse Lords? Or perhaps the blade was of Qohorik origin, an old VS sword reforged to impress some Dothraki  maybe?
 
 

So much juicy stuff, Leo.  Let's start with your take on the conversation between Tyrion and Mormont.  You realize you've read this the way it's meant to be read, right?  And yet I understand!  Yes, it's odd and far more strained a conversation than should be.  There is a haggardness to Mormont here.  This is not a run of the mill Bloodraven did it scenario.  The raven, the mention of dreams.   Yes, I totally see this Leo.  Further, I think you may be spot on here.  Mormont was not an eloquent man and I can see his struggle to impress the dire need upon Tyrion without giving up his actual intel.   He talks around the threat while addressing the need.  Nice.   Wish I could just keep you with me when I reread ACOK so you could show me how to pick the important things out.   I get glimmers, but I don't read this for fantasy nor literary value.   I read for the mysteries.  While finding mysteries is easy, you've made finding supporting text look so easy.   Tell me, did you always read this passage with this insight?   This enlightenment makes it more terrible that Mormont knew of Craster's sacrifices.   Hard men for hard times.   I feel Jon's indignation anew.   

Of course we are familiar with Aegon V's opinions about prophecy and magic.   Still, reminders are very useful in discussions about swords as Bloodraven is frequently said to be a sorcerer, it's so easy to forget Egg's own similar knowledge and study.  The story we have for BR being sent North is pat--completely viable--but is sending a most trusted adviser who shares that knowledge and study really so viable?  I don't know if another punishment could be made that would allow Bloordraven to continue in Egg's brave new world, but it is awfully suspect nothing else was offered that we are aware of.   The word convenient comes to mind.   I think if anyone actually understood that they had a magic sword it would be a Targ who studied prophecy or sorcery. I don't want to open the dragon steel can of worms.   I long ago accepted that I don't know what it is.  However, as a sword geek, I know there is a reason the 10 families in Westeros who were able to obtain VS to get it as well as for the newest settlers, Valyrians, to bring their own swords making a perfect 12 available to match the dozen companions. 

The arakh is hard for me to read.   You've actually given me the very 1st really good idea about why the Dothraki have VS.  With 5 swords possibly lost forever it's not so curious that the arakh and axe are mentioned so often.   There are plenty of daggers as well.   I do believe Dark Sister and Blackfyre will return to the story just as I believe Brightroar and Lamentation will not.   And yes, it's also occurred to me that there may not even be 12 companions--but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be prepared for all of them and whatever VS calls to them.  It's only recently entered my orbit that Dany could have a part to play in The Last Hero's quest and for that I thank you for your vigilant memory and call out to it.   Yes, as the first people to emerge from the Doom I imagine there is a place among those who will take up the final fight in the North.  Would someone need to impress the Dothraki with the shape of blade?   Sure, but I tend to think that arakh is as it was made.  To play its part in fulfilling prophecy.   That's the long way of saying I completely agree with all of your assertions.  Something is dragon steel and it suits me fine to have Valyrian Steel in its absence.  

A great deal in our particular fantasy is written to obscure facts.  Our author does a wonderful job downplaying magic.  However, there is magic and prophecy and we must use both sparingly but wisely to make it all make sense.   You've made some wonderful rare sense to me in this and I thank you.  

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17 hours ago, Faera said:

I guess I'm a bit shy...:blush:

Though I guess I'll take the plunge in the next few days and actually post it.

It is nerve wracking to put yourself out there the first time.  Hodor is an interesting subject, so you won't lack for participation if that's what you're worried about.  I won't leave you hanging and I'm sure Curled Finger and Kissedbyfire will join in.  I enjoy reading your commentary.  Of course, I don't want to push you if you're not ready.  So, it's fine, whenever you're ready.  

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7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

It's Faera's orginal post in this thread.   I feel utterly pregnant!   This is right up your alley.   I think you will enjoy this in it's dawn stages.   

Ah ok, tks. I read that but thought maybe @Faera had expanded on that excellent post. 

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm good with the 2 we have.   

Ditto. Other characters have been put forth over the yrs as possibilities as well, like the Clegane brothers and even the Kettleblacks. Meh, I don't really see it, as there are no hints to either whatsoever apart from the fact that they're tall. :dunno:

 

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Sorry it has taken so long to reply, but here I am.

On 7/2/2018 at 4:24 AM, Curled Finger said:

Oh Sister that is a great question.  What are you thinking here?  Is there anything to the numerology of the possessors of Dark Sister or should we focus in on Visenya?  If Dark Sister was acquired through the Velaryons all sorts of possibilities become apparent.  After all, Alyssa, Aenys' wife, returned to Driftmark with DS when she stole it!  Intrigue...

I am inclined to agree with you that Dark Sister is with Bloodraven and that there was some destiny to his possessing and disappearing with her.  Perhaps he was protecting her?  

You probably don't realize you gave me chills when I read that last bit.   My head is screaming MORMONT!!!  

I think he took her where she was supposed to be... a sort of destiny yes. Maybe it won't be an official handover, but more a sword in the right place at the right time...

I'm very intrigued by @Faera's idea about Bran-Hodor, I think there is a good chance she's right.  I really hope she starts a new thread soon.
OT: We have only have 5 ancestral swords, for me: Ice, Heartsbane, Blackfyre, Longclaw and Brigthroar, maybe Lady Forlorn too. The other ones, we don't know for sure.

As for DS history, it's very intriguing. I would love to know something more about Valyrians.... And why Dark Sister wasn't with Maegor at  the time of Visenya's death?  Concerning possessors after Visenya, I'm interested in Jaehaerys/Daemon in particular....I would like to understand some things better, but I think it will have to wait right now. 

 

On 9/2/2018 at 2:09 AM, Curled Finger said:

If you ever want to join in behind the scenes in our quest for the perfect line up just drop Cridfea or me a PM.   

yes @Faera, I would like to know you ideas!

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  • 2 weeks later...
On February 5, 2018 at 1:08 PM, Lady Dacey said:

I don't really understand swords at all, and I haven't read any of the novellas, so I'm not rellay qualified to talk about Darksister. I learned a lot with your OP though - thanks for that! It's very well written and organized :) 

One thing a know for certain though... I'm pretty sure Arya qualifies as a "sorcerer" in the same way Lord Bloodraven did. I mean she is a warg and a capable skinchanger, she's very connecetd to the Old Gods and she is very knowledgeable - she understands poisons, speaks many languages and she can pull mummery tricks. Those are her current skills, and she might yet learn to work glamours and even how to change her face FM-style. I can't see another character in the books that has that many "magical qualities". What does it take for a person to be called a sorcerer in Westeros, circa 300 A.C.? In fact she's such a good candidate for the sword I think GRRM might not give it to her just to mess with us. 

Thank you for killing that Arya mini-bio. I have her pegged as both sorcerer and the future owner of DS. But again very nice my lady. On top of all that she also has that "6th sense" or maybe a kind of "super" self awareness. IMHO

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I am actually thinking Jon is destined for a certain white sword and idk why except destiny.

Nightfall.... I don't think I wanna know about that one lol sounds morbid 

Widow's wail? Loras via Tommen? Why even put that in there GRRM? Lol

Heartsbane will find a good home thanks to Samwell

My wildest guess is lady forlorn to Sandor via Sansa after she outwits some of the vale

Red Rain is absolutely changing hands. (Tyrell's again maybe? Euron? Not sure we've heard from house drumm much but Andrik the unsmiling stood for them at the kings moot and was named a shield island lord so... Euron could be scheming (go figure)

I have one more crazy one.... And please realize I realize I'm 100% wrong most likely but I haven't heard this theory.........Darkstar with Orphan-Maker ("he was sword of the morning, I am of the night, the dornish mans blade was made of black steel and it's kiss was a terrible thing) 

And bc of his prowess he already be the sword of the morning but seems a bit bitter with the "he had a good sword" comment regarding Arthur but it's still possible.

I have an even bigger crackpot for orphan maker I've discussed with @Curled Finger but I don't wanna get too loony lol

And I also see Euron getting a VS sword bc 

Spoiler

Of his forsaken chapter reveal with the armor

 

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On 09/02/2018 at 1:09 AM, Curled Finger said:

Faera, that was a lovely offering of thought organization.   We have many of the tiers you suggest thought out.    I was doing great before I joined the forum and became infected with so many people's excellent ideas and rationale.   Yep, before I began foraging here for likely suspects I didn't even have 10 hero companions.   It's a good predicament to be in.   And it is weirdly fun.  We've got spreadsheets and timelines.   We've got names and possible histories and backstories and this little chat here is a new twist in the road for me--the swords actually "belonging" to a certain type.   Oh, add all sorts of new intel about character classes from some D&D and WoW players.  So Dark Sister is a sorcerer's sword, for lack of a better, cooler way to say it.  On to Lady Forlorn!  I've no doubt made this thing far more difficult than needs be, but it sure is fun.   However, I really like the way you laid out the tiers.   May I use this suggestion for my notes to be referenced for future topics?  I will of course quote and be sure you are given due thanks.   I'm very interested in your Bran/Hodor ideas and sure hope you took the hint and made a link available!

That sounds so interesting! :D  Sure, I don't mind you adapting my tierd. It's why I suggested it. I have to admit I found them a hellalota fun. That brainstorm I randomly had about Theon really opened my eyes to how he might get to wield DS at some point. Tied into @kissdbyfire suggestion in my Bran-Hodor thread of an idea of hers she linked me to that Bran might also skin-change Theon, it makes me wonder if Dark Sister might be Bran's sword, out in the hands of his various human skins he acquires.

While obviously most of you have already seen it, I'll link the thread I made here for the extended Bran-Hodor idea here as promised:

 

On 09/02/2018 at 1:09 AM, Curled Finger said:

 If you ever want to join in behind the scenes in our quest for the perfect line up just drop Cridfea or me a PM.   

 

On 10/02/2018 at 2:12 PM, Cridefea said:

yes @Faera, I would like to know you ideas!

I'm happy to share those ideas if you ever want to hear them. 

 

On 19/02/2018 at 6:49 PM, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

I am actually thinking Jon is destined for a certain white sword and idk why except destiny.

Nightfall.... I don't think I wanna know about that one lol sounds morbid 

Widow's wail? Loras via Tommen? Why even put that in there GRRM? Lol

Heartsbane will find a good home thanks to Samwell

My wildest guess is lady forlorn to Sandor via Sansa after she outwits some of the vale

Red Rain is absolutely changing hands. (Tyrell's again maybe? Euron? Not sure we've heard from house drumm much but Andrik the unsmiling stood for them at the kings moot and was named a shield island lord so... Euron could be scheming (go figure)

I have one more crazy one.... And please realize I realize I'm 100% wrong most likely but I haven't heard this theory.........Darkstar with Orphan-Maker ("he was sword of the morning, I am of the night, the dornish mans blade was made of black steel and it's kiss was a terrible thing) 

And bc of his prowess he already be the sword of the morning but seems a bit bitter with the "he had a good sword" comment regarding Arthur but it's still possible.

I have an even bigger crackpot for orphan maker I've discussed with @Curled Finger but I don't wanna get too loony lol

And I also see Euron getting a VS sword bc 

  Reveal hidden contents

Of his forsaken chapter reveal with the armor

 

Spoiler

I know this almost sounds like King Arthur-y but what if an iconic "hero's" sword ended up in Euron's hands after being stolen? I'm not married to the idea but if Euron does turn out to be the big, big bad of the series it seems he's benefit from a VS weapon...

(Plus, it occurred to me briefly that the existence of two Targaryen VS blades semi parallels Arthuriana with Excalibur and Clarent).

Oh my! What if it is revealed that Aegon has Blackfyre and that gets stolen, ending up in Euron's hands?! He'd have VS armour, a VS sword and possibly one of Dany's dragons to ride around on.

OT: I actually wonder if Darkstar or little Edric Dayne (if there is some sort of time jump or acceleration) will wield Dawn. It almost feels that Darkstar could be the best candidate at the moment to use it but is denied it due to him being a cadet branch Dayne or simply because he's a loose cannon and thus too dangerous.

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29 minutes ago, Faera said:

That sounds so interesting! :D  Sure, I don't mind you adapting my tierd. It's why I suggested it. I have to admit I found them a hellalota fun. That brainstorm I randomly had about Theon really opened my eyes to how he might get to wield DS at some point. Tied into @kissdbyfire suggestion in my Bran-Hodor thread of an idea of hers she linked me to that Bran might also skin-change Theon, it makes me wonder if Dark Sister might be Bran's sword, out in the hands of his various human skins he acquires.

While obviously most of you have already seen it, I'll link the thread I made here for the extended Bran-Hodor idea here as promised:

 

 

I'm happy to share those ideas if you ever want to hear them. 

 

  Hide contents

I know this almost sounds like King Arthur-y but what if an iconic "hero's" sword ended up in Euron's hands after being stolen? I'm not married to the idea but if Euron does turn out to be the big, big bad of the series it seems he's benefit from a VS weapon...

(Plus, it occurred to me briefly that the existence of two Targaryen VS blades semi parallels Arthuriana with Excalibur and Clarent).

Oh my! What if it is revealed that Aegon has Blackfyre and that gets stolen, ending up in Euron's hands?! He'd have VS armour, a VS sword and possibly one of Dany's dragons to ride around on.

OT: I actually wonder if Darkstar or little Edric Dayne (if there is some sort of time jump or acceleration) will wield Dawn. It almost feels that Darkstar could be the best candidate at the moment to use it but is denied it due to him being a cadet branch Dayne or simply because he's a loose cannon and thus too dangerous.

 I'm actually  not sure you have to be a member of the main branch of house Dayne to be sword of the morning

 The way I read it it seems you simply have to be a knight of house Dayne

 

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8 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

 I'm actually  not sure you have to be a member of the main branch of house Dayne to be sword of the morning

 The way I read it it seems you simply have to be a knight of house Dayne

 

There isn't enough said about it for us to make a judgement either way but that's why I also think his actions and personality might have denied him the sword despite his skill.

Though I am wondering if he intends to somehow get hold of it anyway. I wouldn't put it past him to steal it tbh. :o

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38 minutes ago, Faera said:

There isn't enough said about it for us to make a judgement either way but that's why I also think his actions and personality might have denied him the sword despite his skill.

Though I am wondering if he intends to somehow get hold of it anyway. I wouldn't put it past him to steal it tbh. :o

I also think that's very possible and the lack of chivalry certainly could keep him from ever getting the sword legally if dawn could even pass to him 

I think we are on the same page lol

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