Could Penny be Tyrion's daughter?

[Haus Berlin]

Dear friends,

I'm sorry to start this without prove or pomp. Having seen Verdi's Rigoletto just now, all I have is a simple idea. Has it been discussed before?

Thanks for any help.

 

[Curled Finger]

Hello Haus, it's good to see you.  As I understand things Tyrion is 24 to 26 years old.  Little Penny is 18 I believe.  I don't think it's possible.  However, I wonder if you've looked to Lanna the young prostitute in Braavos?  Lots of suspicion around that younger girl.

[Varysblackfyre321]

52 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Hello Haus, it's good to see you.  As I understand things Tyrion is 24 to 26 years old.  Little Penny is 18 I believe.  I don't think it's possible.  However, I wonder if you've looked to Lanna the young prostitute in Braavos?  Lots of suspicion around that younger girl.

You'd be suprised on the power of a dwarfs's cock. Though the thought of Tyrion discovering he may have a child...I honestly don't know if a kid is somthing he needs right now-he's a enough personal baggage as is it is-and he's a sever alcoholic.

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, Haus Berlin said:

Dear friends,

I'm sorry to start this without prove or pomp. Having seen Verdi's Rigoletto just now, all I have is a simple idea. Has it been discussed before?

Thanks for any help.

 

This theory has been presented.  The general consensus is that she is too old by 3 or 4 years (17 or 18 as opposed to 13 or 14).  So unless she is a lot younger than she appears, no, she isn't.

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Hello Haus, it's good to see you.  As I understand things Tyrion is 24 to 26 years old.  Little Penny is 18 I believe.  I don't think it's possible.  However, I wonder if you've looked to Lanna the young prostitute in Braavos?  Lots of suspicion around that younger girl.

My biggest problem with this is that the girl appears to be named after the Lannister family.  I find it hard to believe that Tysha would name her child after the family that treated her so cruelly.  I tend to think she's Gerion's, although I am unsure of the timing.

[Curled Finger]

44 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You'd be suprised on the power of a dwarfs's cock. Though the thought of Tyrion discovering he may have a child...I honestly don't know if a kid is somthing he needs right now-he's a enough personal baggage as is it is-and he's a sever alcoholic.

Pshaw, Varys, a golden haired child would straighten Tyrion right out.  Happens to the best of us.   I reckon a lot of Tyrion's er, self loathing has a lot to do with being disconnected.   @Haus Berlin asks a good question--look at how tender and loving Tyrion can be with Penny.  She's a handfull.  

[Curled Finger]

24 minutes ago, Nevets said:

This theory has been presented.  The general consensus is that she is too old by 3 or 4 years (17 or 18 as opposed to 13 or 14).  So unless she is a lot younger than she appears, no, she isn't.

My biggest problem with this is that the girl appears to be named after the Lannister family.  I find it hard to believe that Tysha would name her child after the family that treated her so cruelly.  I tend to think she's Gerion's, although I am unsure of the timing.

I googled Tyrion's age before posting just to be sure.   It says he's 24 - 26.   He claims he was 13 when he met Tysha so any child of his would be 12 at the very oldest.  Curious he has no golden bastards running around anywhere.   Lanna or is it Lana? may well be Gerion's child, but I was sort of trying to give Haus a fun thing to look at.   

[silverthorndale]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I googled Tyrion's age before posting just to be sure.   It says he's 24 - 26.   He claims he was 13 when he met Tysha so any child of his would be 12 at the very oldest.  Curious he has no golden bastards running around anywhere.   Lanna or is it Lana? may well be Gerion's child, but I was sort of trying to give Haus a fun thing to look at.   

Yep, it is Lanna. The extra N is what separates it from a pretty normal 21st century name and a name that could very well be a "bastardization" of the Lannister surname.

For precedent in this very series, see Robert's [presumably] final bastard who was named Barra. 

I definitely lean towards Lanna being Gerion's bastard - or perhaps Tywin's

 

[Curled Finger]

7 minutes ago, silverthorndale said:

Yep, it is Lanna. The extra L is what separates it from a pretty normal 21st century name and a name that could very well be a "bastardization" of the Lannister surname.

For precedent in this very series, see Robert's [presumably] final bastard who was named Barra. 

I definitely lean towards Lanna being Gerion's bastard - or perhaps Tywin's

You're a boss, thanks so much for that.   I hate looking stupid right at the 1st post.   I like to wait for page 3 or 4 before having the big reveal.   And by the way, welcome, Ser or Lady.   It's good to be in the company of smart readers.   

[silverthorndale]

9 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You're a boss, thanks so much for that.   I hate looking stupid right at the 1st post.   I like to wait for page 3 or 4 before having the big reveal.   And by the way, welcome, Ser or Lady.   It's good to be in the company of smart readers.   

Oh, no stupidity was observed, so need to feel stupid

And thank you for the welcome and the compliment. Means a lot coming from you (I was pretty sick over the new year period and your Brienne In Pennytree topic gave me hours of thoughtful sick-bed reading.).

As for the topic at hand, it does seem pretty open and shut that Penny isn't Tyrion's, but I like the idea of him having a bastard out there that he eventually meets and has to take care of (say, if he finds where whores go, finds out Tysha died, but her kid is still around).

[Curled Finger]

17 minutes ago, silverthorndale said:

Oh, no stupidity was observed, so need to feel stupid

And thank you for the welcome and the compliment. Means a lot coming from you (I was pretty sick over the new year period and your Brienne In Pennytree topic gave me hours of thoughtful sick-bed reading.).

As for the topic at hand, it does seem pretty open and shut that Penny isn't Tyrion's, but I like the idea of him having a bastard out there that he eventually meets and has to take care of (say, if he finds where whores go, finds out Tysha died, but her kid is still around).

Aw thanks!   If you read through all the pages of Brienne you know our friend @Haus Berlin is quite the eloquent theorist.  I'm very interested in his thoughts about the relationships between Penny and Tyrion.  I'm willing to lay odds (Are we still betting Taco Tuesday around here?) that this thing between Penny and Tyrion is character building.  It is some of my favorite interaction in ADWD.   All joking aside, I would love to see Tyrion find a child, son or daughter, and find that child is a dwarf as well.   I think Tyrion could love this child in a way his dad never loved him.   Yep, sappy romantic, but I would still like to read the the result of Penny's efforts with Tyrion.  Tyrion puts an awful lot into taking care of Penny.   I have always had the feeling their time together is shown to us to prepare us for something much bigger from Tyrion.   

[Ponzi Scheme]

The age does not fit. He's too young.

[Dorian Martell's son]

6 hours ago, Haus Berlin said:

Dear friends,

I'm sorry to start this without prove or pomp. Having seen Verdi's Rigoletto just now, all I have is a simple idea. Has it been discussed before?

Thanks for any help.

It has been discussed before. Considering the major plot between Cersei and Jaime that normalizes it to a degree, this series draws lots of incest loving fans, so many people feel the need to make incest theories about characters whenever possible. Ned/ Lyanna, Brandon/Lyana, Arthur/Ashara, Rhaegar/Rhaella etc. Penny being Tyrion's daughter, while titillating to someone excited by that bent, it serves no purpose in the plot other than to gross out us non-pervert folks who read the series 

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

4 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

It has been discussed before. Considering the major plot between Cersei and Jaime that normalizes it to a degree, this series draws lots of incest loving fans, so many people feel the need to make incest theories about characters whenever possible. Ned/ Lyanna, Brandon/Lyana, Arthur/Ashara, Rhaegar/Rhaella etc. Penny being Tyrion's daughter, while titillating to someone excited by that bent, it serves no purpose in the plot other than to gross out us non-pervert folks who read the series 

What are you talking about? Tyrion and Penny aren't in a romantic relationship, so even should Penny be Tyrion's child, there'd be no incest. Penny showed only the slightest interest in Tyrion romantically, which Tyrion doesn't reciprocate, and it's strongly implied (though, this is from Tyrion's view, of course) that Penny wasn't truly interested anyway. Here:

It was an awkward kiss, rushed, clumsy. But it took him utterly by surprise. His hands jerked up and grabbed hold of her shoulders to shove her away. Instead he hesitated, then pulled her closer, gave her a squeeze. Her lips were dry, hard, closed up tighter than a miser's purse. A small mercy, thought Tyrion. This was nothing he had wanted. He liked Penny, he pitied Penny, he even admired Penny in a way, but he did not desire her. He had no wish to hurt her, though; the gods and his sweet sister had given her enough pain. So he let the kiss go on, holding her gently by the shoulders. His own lips stayed firmly shut. 

Finally she pulled back an inch or two. Tyrion could see his own reflection shining in her eyes. Pretty eyes, he thought, but he saw other things as well. A lot of fear, a little hope … but not a bit of lust. She does not want me, no more than I want her.

I'm not seeing where any incest would come in.

I don't think she is his daughter, though.

[Bernie Mac]

11 hours ago, Haus Berlin said:

Dear friends,

I'm sorry to start this without prove or pomp. Having seen Verdi's Rigoletto just now, all I have is a simple idea. Has it been discussed before?

Thanks for any help.

 

It is possible, but hugely unlikely. As well as the age difference that has already been covered it should be remembered that Penny has an older brother, Oppo, and actually knew her father, both of whom were dwarfs. 

"… a little person? No, but our father was. His own father sold him to a slaver when he was three, but he grew up to be such a famous mummer that he bought his freedom. He traveled to all the Free Cities, and Westeros as well. In Oldtown they used to call him Hop-Bean."

So even if Penny was much younger than Tyrion thinks she is the existence of her older brother and father work against her being Tyrion's daughter, if he even has one. 

 

And from a writing perspective it is just awful. Tyrion mentions how he has had no rea interaction with other dwarfs until he meets Penny. If the only other dwarf in the series, one who is from Essos, happens to be Tyrion's secret daughter it would be lazy writing. A twist for the sake of a twist. 

[Haus Berlin]

Thank you for every one of your thoughts.

 

@cyberdirectorfreedom cited the exact moment I had to think about, when Verdi’s opera revealed that the fool’s alleged lover was truly his daughter. Verdi obviously amused himself by composing the most and the most touching love duets for Rigoletto and his daughter, in stark contrast to the Duke’s fickle courtship or the harmonious but homicidal plotting of a sister and brother against both of them. Everyone looks for a place at court, but for love one has to look in the family. Romantic.

@Curled Finger, I have to thank you for turning my simple question into a pleasant discussion. There has to be something romantic in me too, as I held on to my idea even after I checked the timeline. GRRM makes a too strong point that this relationship evolves and explicitly nothing of it is sexual. Because he keeps the kiss chaste and has a long hug instead, Tyrion has opportunity to literally “see his own reflection shining in her eyes”.  “All dwarfs are bastards in their father’s eyes,” happens to be Tyrion’s earliest moment of reflection when he is around bastard Jon. Not unlike Tysha, Penny has dark hair and a certain beauty, all very plain. But in order to pay Tyrion’s gold coin back with a Penny, there is need of a big misunderstanding concerning the girl’s age. Of course, our POV’s already erred in so many things (So why not another person’s age?), but then these mistakes are part of a bigger problem.

So yes, dear @Bernie Mac, there should really be something more to it than just a twist in the Tyrion-Penny relation. But, concerning your quote, a mummer Tyrion is.

[Varysblackfyre321]

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Pshaw, Varys, a golden haired child would straighten Tyrion right out.  Happens to the best of us.   I reckon a lot of Tyrion's er, self loathing has a lot to do with being disconnected.   @Haus Berlin asks a good question--look at how tender and loving Tyrion can be with Penny.  She's a handfull.  

Meh, getting child has been the proposed to the fix for an individual(or individuals), emotional problems.

And it often could prove as a mistake. 

Though perhaps Tyrion needs one-he has to live for something after he when/if he gets his vengeance.

[Dorian Martell's son]

6 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

What are you talking about?

Penny's interest in Tyrion

6 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Tyrion and Penny aren't in a romantic relationship, so even should Penny be Tyrion's child, there'd be no incest

she wants to be, and you quoted the passage where she tries to kiss him

6 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

 Penny showed only the slightest interest in Tyrion romantically, which Tyrion doesn't reciprocate, and it's strongly implied (though, this is from Tyrion's view, of course) that Penny wasn't truly interested anyway. Here:

It was an awkward kiss, rushed, clumsy. But it took him utterly by surprise. His hands jerked up and grabbed hold of her shoulders to shove her away. Instead he hesitated, then pulled her closer, gave her a squeeze. Her lips were dry, hard, closed up tighter than a miser's purse. A small mercy, thought Tyrion. This was nothing he had wanted. He liked Penny, he pitied Penny, he even admired Penny in a way, but he did not desire her. He had no wish to hurt her, though; the gods and his sweet sister had given her enough pain. So he let the kiss go on, holding her gently by the shoulders. His own lips stayed firmly shut. 

Finally she pulled back an inch or two. Tyrion could see his own reflection shining in her eyes. Pretty eyes, he thought, but he saw other things as well. A lot of fear, a little hope … but not a bit of lust. She does not want me, no more than I want her.

 This is merely a start. Tyrion's recent romantic experiences with highborn women and whores have been solely about what would be gained from the relationship. GRRM is setting up a relationship between the two based on shared experiences, of being dwarves, being slaves, fighting, sailing, learning to joust on seen to be food animals and (if the book is ever completed) meeting up with dany and planning to conquer westeros. Tyrion is in no place to feel love at the end of dance, but as he gets to know her, their shared experience will let love grow, just in time for her to die a tragic horrible death. 

6 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

I don't think she is his daughter, though.

Me neither 

[Lady bonehead]

Penny is Tyrion's sister.  Tyrion is actually the product of a fling between Joanna and a traveling dwarf (haven't heard this theory before, but it makes as much sense as many).

[Curled Finger]

11 hours ago, Haus Berlin said:

Thank you for every one of your thoughts.

 

@cyberdirectorfreedom cited the exact moment I had to think about, when Verdi’s opera revealed that the fool’s alleged lover was truly his daughter. Verdi obviously amused himself by composing the most and the most touching love duets for Rigoletto and his daughter, in stark contrast to the Duke’s fickle courtship or the harmonious but homicidal plotting of a sister and brother against both of them. Everyone looks for a place at court, but for love one has to look in the family. Romantic.

@Curled Finger, I have to thank you for turning my simple question into a pleasant discussion. There has to be something romantic in me too, as I held on to my idea even after I checked the timeline. GRRM makes a too strong point that this relationship evolves and explicitly nothing of it is sexual. Because he keeps the kiss chaste and has a long hug instead, Tyrion has opportunity to literally “see his own reflection shining in her eyes”.  “All dwarfs are bastards in their father’s eyes,” happens to be Tyrion’s earliest moment of reflection when he is around bastard Jon. Not unlike Tysha, Penny has dark hair and a certain beauty, all very plain. But in order to pay Tyrion’s gold coin back with a Penny, there is need of a big misunderstanding concerning the girl’s age. Of course, our POV’s already erred in so many things (So why not another person’s age?), but then these mistakes are part of a bigger problem.

So yes, dear @Bernie Mac, there should really be something more to it than just a twist in the Tyrion-Penny relation. But, concerning your quote, a mummer Tyrion is.

Haus, the bolded is some very nice detective work.    I never thought of it as value at all, but it makes perfect sense.   I'm not sure if there is an error in Penny's or Tyrion's ages, but I enjoy the symbolism here a lot.  Mostly when I think of Tyrion and Penny I consider the lengths he goes to comfort her and give her all the kindness he can both muster and finds innate.   I like it that there is no sexual tension or attraction between them.  She's so very young and sees life so differently than older world weary Tyrion.   She gets him to perform the acrobatics he enjoyed as a child and he learns from her.   This is Tyrion at his darkest and very best if my opinion counts for anything.    I admit you have me wondering what Tyrion will gain--self worth, capacity to hope, faith, love--that will cost him his Penny.   Heartbreaking.   

Don't blame conversation on me.   These maniacs around here love to talk about stuff!   It was a nice way to break the ice, Haus.   Well done, Ser.   

[Curled Finger]

8 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Meh, getting child has been the proposed to the fix for an individual(or individuals), emotional problems.

And it often could prove as a mistake. 

Though perhaps Tyrion needs one-he has to live for something after he when/if he gets his vengeance.

Pshaw again, Varys!   The relationship between Penny and Tyrion is a sweet thing between misfits who find a way to fit together.  I'm thinking along the lines of brother-sister; Tyrion filling Penny's deep loss in a way and Penny giving him someone sweet to mentor and care for.   They distract each other in a mutually beneficial way.   

I think you're right, Ser.   Tyrion does need purpose and Penny is a fine one at this point.