Rhaegar, Elia and Lyanna

[Alexis-something-Rose]

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Oh--yes of course. I meant, if he was in cahoots with Rhaegar and knew all of this was a plot, why would he give in so easily to Aerys? Seems like he might have tried to maneuver out of the mess differently. 

Though that is obviously highly speculative

There's nothing that says that he didn't try to maneuver himself out of that mess, but Aerys is someone who saw treason everywhere, so I doubt anyone could have reasoned with him. There must have been a point when Rickard knew his and Brandon's lives were forfeit. 

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Maybe--but given the reaction to his crowning Lyanna--especially the Stark reaction to the crowning--this seems like an odd move on Rhaegar's part. Brandon was the one who was particularly incensed. Going to his wedding seems. . . odd. 

And do High Lords and Kings in these books generally attend weddings of people they aren't connected to? I'm realizing I don't know--but the wedding even of High Lords seems like it's much more of a local affair, just the parties involved and their direct retainers.

I don't know if high lords and kings attend these weddings. We know Walder Frey extended an invitation to Hoster Tully for his last two weddings. Both invitations were declined.

I think that invitations could be extended to the royals out of courtesy more than anything. You know how it is, you invite someone to a wedding not because you particularly like them or want them there, but because you kind of have to and if you don't, then it might snowball into something you'd rather not deal with later. 

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

A fair point--could be interesting.

As I said, the Starks seem unlikely to be friendly at this point, though. 

Plus Aerys has snatched away Tywin's marriage plans by Kingsguarding Jaime. So, no reason for Tywin to go. 

Just really seems like Rhaegar might be unlikely to get a positive hearing even if he risked this.

No, Tywin may not have been invited, or may have been but declined, or may have been and decided to go. The idea is more that there may have been that Riverrun may have been the place to be because of the wedding. 

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

This one I struggle with--it is possible, but I can't find any hint of it. Ned does say he'll find Sansa a better husband when the "Baratheon" Joffrey ends up being horrible, but he doesn't then turn and try to arrange a marriage to an already married man. 

No--it's theoretically possible, I grant you. Just can't see any hints in the novels.

Or are you thinking of a specific parallel that I'm missing?

There is no parallel that I'm thinking of. This is coming mainly from thoughts that I've had about the Hightowers (Maester Walys and Lynesse) in the north and Gerold Hightower who remained at the ToJ. But that's a whole different speculation.

Again, though, we don't know who was invited at Riverrun, so it's just speculation based on assumptions. 

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

There's nothing that says that he didn't try to maneuver himself out of that mess, but Aerys is someone who saw treason everywhere, so I doubt anyone could have reasoned with him. There must have been a point when Rickard knew his and Brandon's lives were forfeit. 

True. Just makes me think that Rickard did not have an in with Rhaegar.

Tywin? Absolutely. Maybe even Jon Arryn, If @Black Crow and @Voice's speculations are correct.

But Rickard. . . seems like he and Brandon got mired in the plotters' machinations. Not that they were the plotters per se.

2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I don't know if high lords and kings attend these weddings. We know Walder Frey extended an invitation to Hoster Tully for his last two weddings. Both invitations were declined.

I think that invitations could be extended to the royals out of courtesy more than anything. You know how it is, you invite someone to a wedding not because you particularly like them or want them there, but because you kind of have to and if you don't, then it might snowball into something you'd rather not deal with later. 

Could be--though the example of the Freys--Freys are Tully bannermen. So, that would make sense.

And I agree with the "politeness" invite in our world--just can't think of something comparable in Martinlandia.

2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

No, Tywin may not have been invited, or may have been but declined, or may have been and decided to go. The idea is more that there may have been that Riverrun may have been the place to be because of the wedding. 

Fair enough--just not sure there are enough players.

One other potential issue: Harrenhal was everyone. Makes it a bit less obvious if Rhaegar is meeting with people to plot.

Riverrun--a specific high lord with fewer players. Unless crown princes regularly attended such weddings, might draw attention to Rhaegar's plotting. And since Aerys is already onto Rhaegar (as shown by the fact that Aerys went to Harrenhal), seems like Rhaegar might want to lay low for a bit.

2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

There is no parallel that I'm thinking of. This is coming mainly from thoughts that I've had about the Hightowers (Maester Walys and Lynesse) in the north and Gerold Hightower who remained at the ToJ. But that's a whole different speculation.

Interesting--I think the Hightowers have potentially a big role to play.

And the fact that Maester Walys was part of Rickard's ambitions. . .  yes--very interesting speculation!

2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Again, though, we don't know who was invited at Riverrun, so it's just speculation based on assumptions

Yup! As are my arguments. Which is what makes it fun.

[Sly Wren]

1 hour ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

Listen here the show version on how Rheagar's set side his wife Elia Martell is junk! 

Amen. Though best not to go into much detail in the book forum--we might end up flayed.

1 hour ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

The truth is Rheagar had wanted a second wife and keep the princess of Dorne as the first wife

Or--no second-wifing at all--just a paramour. Stannis has Melisandre--a confidant of his wife. Selyse is even more of a true believer in Mel's abilities than Stannis is, in some ways.

Not at all sure that would fit with Lyanna's being the mother of Rhaegar's third head. I'm partial to that's being Ashara Dayne, myself. Though that's for another thread.

But so far in the books, we've got enough parallels to think Elia knew and was part of the cult.

[Crona]

13 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Also, one thing about Elia's involvement: we have no idea how much, or if, she valued her position as the future queen-to-be, along with her children's succession in the Targ lineage. If she cared more about living a happy life, rather than powerplay and dynasties and whatever, then her cooperation in the Lyanna affair, e.g. in exchange for being able to return to Dorne, doesn't seem so far-fetched. Mellario did resign on being the consort to the Prince of Dorne, after all, and although such a decision is probably more understandable with her, as she was not raised in Westeros, she did set a certain example.

I think this is the most plausible, nothing wrong with peacefully leaving with her children 

10 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed--though I'd argue Selyse and Dalla are much more likely to give us potential parallels for Elia.

Especially since Mance has enough Rhaegar imagery around him to inspire "Mance is Rhaegar" theories.

No, I do not think Mance is Rhaegar. But I do think the imagery around him is put there in large part for readers--so we can draw parallels and get hints about what Rhaegar did.

Selyse is all in for Stannis' plans to take the kingdom and for his "cult"--she was on board with Mel before Stannis was.

And Dalla, too, is all in for Mance. She, too, is all in for the ideas about magic and destiny and saving the free folk from the Others. She knows all the history and rules. She schools Jon on the whole "magic is a sword without a hilt" stuff.

And then we are given Arianne Martell--Dornish princess eagerly involved in plots to change who sits the throne.

No--I think there's a good chance all of that is in the novels for a reason: I think Elia was all in for Rhaegar's plans. And, like Selyse and Dalla and even Arianne, she'd want people involved in her "plot" that she could trust, not outsiders or new converts.

 

What about a parallel with Naerys and Elia?

[Alia of the knife]

On 2/6/2018 at 9:36 AM, Ygrain said:

The prophecy certainly played a huge role in his life (he considered it his duty to become a warrior because the prophecy required it and from the HotU vision, it seems he was trying to father the PTWP), but I fully agree that he genuinely fell in love with Lyanna, regardless of the prophecy. There was a discussion in which @Alia of the knife suggested that he fulfilled the prophecy at the moment when he stopped trying to force it, when his actions were not prophecy-driven. I am not convinced one way or another but I do like this scenario - however, I find it hard to believe that someone familiar with "a song of ice and fire" might ever overlook the Stark-Targaryen symbolics. But if he discovered that KotLT was a lady and was smitten even before he learned who she was, well... And after Elia couldn't bear any more children, the prophecy would be a convenient excuse why he should follow his feelings; as if fate itself was giving him a sign that she was the one.

Lol Ygrain, only a month later.

All well said, and no, I don't think it would have been lost on Rhaegar the symbolism in a union between himself and a Stark, but given all the narrative clues and Martin's views on following/deciphering prophesy, it would be consistent that Rhaegar would fulfill the prophesy when he stopped trying to force/manipulate it into being.

Anyway, hope all is well with you.