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Canon Claude

Spare one of these villains from execution and explain why

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12 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 I'm  arguing if the right person was in command of this monster Qyburn could be used to do a lot of good in the world. 

No he couldn't. His results are due to the process he uses, not due to some extraordinary genius.

How much good did he do under the regulations that the Citadel held him to?

Edited by Blackwater Revenant

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1 hour ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

No he couldn't. His results are due to the process he uses, not due to some extraordinary genius.

How much good did he do under the regulations that the Citadel held him to?

And he's intelligent enough to figure out what processes could illicit such a monumentus result such as creating a literal zombie. To figure out the keys to even do this if not simply written would take a genuis-a genuis at such a level to where to simply kill without seeing what else he could be used for would a colossal mistake.

 

He wasn't specifically tasked or ultimately given a reason to do any good-he was too preoccupied with finding the keys towards how to bring about life rather than how to save it and the citadel again takes preserving knowledge as its ultimate goal not really generating it. if threatened with execution, or bribed to a certain degree he may very well save thousands through things such as finding a cure to a disease which has killed thousands. 

So you awknowlege I hadn't argued what he'd done to the women Cersi had given him to fix Gregore isn't "doing a lot of good in the world" yes?

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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47 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So you awknowlege I hadn't argued what he'd done to the women Cersi had given him to fix Gregore isn't "doing a lot of good in the world" yes?

I hadn't said that, so there's no reason I need to acknowledge such. The argument you had made is equally appalling though.

There is no indication, nor reason to beleive Qyburn is capable of accomplishing anything extraordinary without using horridly unacceptable methods. Based on all information you or I have, an assertion that he is capable of accomplishing something that could be beneficial is unfounded, unless one assumes he would be using the same methods as he currently is. 

If you intended to mean that Qyburn would be using other, more acceptable methods, then you didn't make that clear, and it would be unsupported speculation that would conflict with all information the author has given us in regards to Qyburn so far; Nothing noteworthy that he has accomplished has been without mutilating and/or experimenting on live subjects.

Edited by Blackwater Revenant

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9 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Seriously dude? You're all over men like Robb and Jon, claiming that they intentionally cause suffering because they are selfish, but men like Walder and Qyburn are just poor victims of circumstance. Talk about insincere, feigned arguments just for the sake of being contrarian. :rolleyes:

Oh sorry missed this part. Um no. Walder Frey is a vampire who feeds on literally breeding his wives to death. Qyburn has no ethics and will cause great levels of pain merely to satisfy his own curiousties about the world. I have said so. 

These men are monsters.I'm not saying Qyburn is some angel or a poor victim of circumstance who was ultimately forced to do bad things. Hell I literally compared him to a Nazi scientist and Dr.Morea(a man who'd created creatures whose every second of sentience  was an agony and that was only brought about to satisfy the Dr's sick curiousty).  I'm saying he could have a use to a good cause. 

Now saying that:

Because I point to actions I find ultimately immoral of characters you like does not I'm doing this to because I'm being a contrarian not everyone who expresses an opion you disagree with is a troll sometimes people express a view point you don't like and that's it; Robb Stark is willing to push a war that has killed thousands even if had been  basiclly lost(due to mostly his actions), because the lanisters killed his daddy that's the only reason he gives for why he cannot sue for peace. I find that immoral; so I point out his actual stated reasons for why hates any idea of bending the knee as being for some greater good and the actions he takes in his war-effort are that greater good.  I said find Jon's plan to attack to winterfell to a glorified group suicide; I will still until someone could actually reason out how in any way what he is planning is reasonable; until I find that action to be immoral as well  if someone could give an convincing argument that could that shows how I'm wrong or mistaken on certain critism on one of Jon's or Robb's actions I usually concede the point. I've defended actions done by each in the past as well.  

But, honestly  this is not the thread to discuss past discussions to which have nothing to do with the OP.

9 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Pfft!No matter what your goals are, putting someone through the terrifyingly horrid and painful ordeal that the poor, innocent girls like Falyse Stokeworth had to endure before being murdered, is NOT "doing a lot of good in the world."

 

I hadn't said that, so there's no reason I need to acknowledge such. The argument you had made is equally appalling though

You clearly insinuated such with the part of your last post that I just cited. The argument I had made is Qyburn is smart enough to where killing would be mistake until he's fully exploited for everything he could very well do some good if given the right management-how the hell is that as "equally appalling" as arguing that the hell those women had went in it of itself to get a psychopath a monster "doing a lot in the world"? Simply put it isn't. Not even close. 

There is no indication, nor  reason to beleive Qyburn is capable of accomplishing anything extraordinary without using horridly unacceptable methods. Based on all information you or I have, an assertion that he is capable of accomplishing something that could be beneficial is unfounded, unless one assumes he would be using the same methods as he currently is. 

   Again  to even know what to actually do produce such results shows Qyburn has an great even extraordinary mind worth preserving until it's shown he'd simply followed a list of instructions someone else had already concocted. The guy is a monster but from what we know he is a genuis to which given the right framing may very well prove useful to mankind-a least more useful than dead. 

If you intended to mean that Qyburn would be using other, more acceptable methods, then you didn't make that clear, and it would be unsupported speculation that would conflict with all information the author has given us in regards to Qyburn so far; Nothing noteworthy that he has accomplished has been without mutilating and/or experimenting on live subjects.

 He hasn't been given a reason to or the master that would severely punish(execution) him should he break a guideline of ethics or the money to where spending his time finding a cure of disease is more profitable than checking the whores of the brave companions.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You clearly insinuated such with the part of your last post that I just cited.

Uh, no. I said "No matter what your goals are...". Insinuating that I was referring to the scenario you proposed is what wouldn't be doing a lot of good in the world, as you claimed it could.

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Again  to even know what to actually do produce such results shows Qyburn has an great even extraordinary mind worth preserving

Does it? Again, how do you know that any relatively intelligent person with Qyburn's education, and years of experience performing these heinous experiments couldn't figure out what he has?

We also have no clue as to this process. There could very well be magic involved too.

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He hasn't been given a reason to

What are you talking about? It's not like this was something he was tasked with doing by Cercei, and impressively figured out how to. This has been - by his own incentives - his life's work, and the reason he was expelled from the Citadel.

How about the reason that what he is doing is considered to be morally repulsive, most likely unlawful, and what had him stripped of his chain?

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

or the master that would severely punish(execution) him should he break a guideline of ethics or the money to where spending his time finding a cure of disease is more profitable than checking the whores of the brave companions.

You lost me here. Could you perhaps rephrase this?

Edited by Blackwater Revenant

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I'd also say Qyburn. It's not that I'd want him saved from any punishment, but as others point out, there are contributions he can make to medicine as part of his penance.

The others are weasels. Don't really care what happens to them.

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14 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Don't be an ingrate. I gave you five of the worst people in Westeros.

But, why is Black Walder listed? Why not Late Walder or Lothar?

I would spare Qyburn he could be usefull to me.

Edited by Kandrax

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5 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:
5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Uh, no. I said "No matter what your goals are...". Insinuating that I was referring to the scenario you proposed is what wouldn't be doing a lot of good in the world, as you claimed it coul

What scenario? That Qyburn underer the authority of a benign entity being could be ordered to find a cure for a disease that's been killing thousands and suceed at it? What scenario are you referring to? 

 

5 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Does it? Again, how do you know that any relatively intelligent person with Qyburn's education, and years of experience performing these heinous experiments couldn't figure out what he has?

Again he would have to be an extraordinary (to be clear whatever he is  Qyburn definitely a genuis his intelligence had been compared to that of Arc Maestor Egros) genuis to be able to actually find out what experiments would be needed  to be performed that could prompt the results Qyburn was looking for with no clear cut instruction on how to engage this process.

5 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

We also have no clue as to this process. There could very well be magic involved too.

5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Magic isn't necessarily a discount; depending on what type and what it requires and the level of it was involved in. Yes may very well be he's simply replicating the step-step instructions to commit some weird spell-but if it's his own or mostly brilliance that found a way to beat death well he simply is too valuable to throw away-without trying to exploit him for everything he has.

 

5 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

What are you talking about? It's not like this was something he was tasked with doing by Cercei, and impressively figured out how to. This has been - by his own incentives - his life's work, and the reason he was expelled from the Citadel.

Well for starters I had meant to reply to this:

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

How much good did he do under the regulations that the Citadel held him to?

Also could you change expermininting on live subjects to experimenting on living and unwilling humans? It's experminting on living things isn't that morally egregious today and has produced great medical break throughout; how Qyburn did it is.  

He makes no indication he continued his experiments after being expelled from the citadel-it's clear his only real functions was to check on the women Vargo wanted to rape and sew up wounds. The brave companions did not care about providing the means(you know the proper Ingredients) to continue his research. Once, with Royal backing he was able to finally suceed in unlocking the mysteries of how to create life-to a degree.

Cersi may given him the tools he needed but ultimately it is Qyburn who made a medical break through with them.

5 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

How about the reason that what he is doing is considered to be morally repulsive, most likely unlawful, and what had him stripped of his chain?

A. The guy is a sociopath. Morality, legality ultimately it means nothing to him. Hell he surely joined up to be a Maestor not for any altruistic reason like men like Luwin might've but to satisfy but it was a clear cut way to Westeroes' fountain of knowledge. 

Hes not a humanitarian. He's a scientist.

B.) Nothing like a looming death sentence and a watchful eye could get even a monster like Qyburn to obey.

Being an expelled wasn't something he'd look forward but in the end didn't dissuade him but the threat certain death most likely would.

5 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:
5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

You lost me here. Could you perhaps rephrase this?

Miscommunication again. An error on my part: I was referring to your question on what good Qyburn had done at the citadel; my answer is that he was never really given a reason to invest himself in trying to use his skills to well do good. A man such as him must be threatened or tremendously bribed into doing the smallest act of kindness.

If Qyburn had invested was prompted to having to invest as much effort into finding a cure for a disease or any other medical knowledge that could save lives he could and most likely would-if given the right amount of pressure to do so.

Maybe not. Maybe any of the archmaestors could achieve more if they disregarded ethics.

Maybe Qyburn simply found a magical spell and he's just one of the smartest people in backwater Westeroes but not the type of genuis that would be seen in a life-time.

But until shown otherwise he by all appearances looks to have made the greatest scientific breakthrough in this world's hisrory; to kill him without having tried to exploit him for all his knowledge and potential would be a mistake-if he proves to be wholly reliant upon dark arts and unable to offer more to society then he should be destroyed for the crimes he was responsible for and complicit in. Actually no. The death penalty is inherently inhumane and still he could be put to some use (like others have stated), as work as a healer at a sort of free clinic at KL- he's  really proficient at healing and there are a lot of poor people who usually can't afford a Maestor's services; it'd be nice to see them get basic medical treatment and advice.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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11 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I'm never given the impression he's a sadist-just that he's apathetic to the pain his experiments cause the subjects-kinda like Dr.Moreau. He doesn't rejoice in the pain but the thrill of searching for knowledge and discovering new things.

I guess you are right, he is still a dangerous guy though...

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21 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

They’re all on the gallows, pleading for your mercy. The title says the rest.

1. Euron Greyjoy

2. Ramsay Bolton

3. Qyburn 

4. Black Walder Frey

5. The Weeper

Oh, I'd probably regret it later, but I'd let Euron go. He's too entertaining to switch off right now.

Qyburn maybe, if he had an Ethical Oversight Committee in his dungeon lab

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21 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

 

1. Euron Greyjoy

Kinslayer and needlessly tortured the people of his ships. And these are just his opening acts. 

21 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

2. Ramsay Bolton

Genuine psychopath. Needlessly tortures people. No idea why Roose still keeps him around as he seems to be the obvious reason for the Bolton's downfall. His savagery is what is likely to turn the likes of the Dustins and Ryswells against Roose. 

21 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

3. Qyburn 

Scientist with no morals. Presumably only tortures for science. Not a nice person but seems like he can be managed. 

21 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

4. Black Walder Frey

An odd choice. His Grandfather sanctioned the Red Wedding, his uncle Lame Lothar came up with it and pleasantly invited the Starks and Tullys to the wedding. Black Walder (and his uncle Walder Rivers) have been pretty upfront with their distaste of Robb since he married Jeyne. Had Black Walder been the ruler Robb would have never shown up.

Slept around with other men's wives and his own cousins but his crimes seem to be the least severe on the five.  

21 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

5. The Weeper

Playing devil's advocate he is a hero and leader to his people. Most of his stories come from the Brothers, the people who are keeping the Wildling beyond the Wall. But when you get beyond that he is also a rapist of Northern women and it has been said he blinds the women he can not take back. This makes him as bad as Euron and Ramsay in my mind, it is cruelty without reason. 

 

Overall I think Black Walder is the least deserving to be in this 5 but he is shit out of luck as I would spare Qyburn in the hopes that he could be better managed and supervised and help improve their society with his science. 

 

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4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Kinslayer and needlessly tortured the people of his ships. And these are just his opening acts. 

Genuine psychopath. Needlessly tortures people. No idea why Roose still keeps him around as he seems to be the obvious reason for the Bolton's downfall. His savagery is what is likely to turn the likes of the Dustins and Ryswells against Roose. 

Scientist with no morals. Presumably only tortures for science. Not a nice person but seems like he can be managed. 

An odd choice. His Grandfather sanctioned the Red Wedding, his uncle Lame Lothar came up with it and pleasantly invited the Starks and Tullys to the wedding. Black Walder (and his uncle Walder Rivers) have been pretty upfront with their distaste of Robb since he married Jeyne. Had Black Walder been the ruler Robb would have never shown up.

Slept around with other men's wives and his own cousins but his crimes seem to be the least severe on the five.  

Playing devil's advocate he is a hero and leader to his people. Most of his stories come from the Brothers, the people who are keeping the Wildling beyond the Wall. But when you get beyond that he is also a rapist of Northern women and it has been said he blinds the women he can not take back. This makes him as bad as Euron and Ramsay in my mind, it is cruelty without reason. 

 

Overall I think Black Walder is the least deserving to be in this 5 but he is shit out of luck as I would spare Qyburn in the hopes that he could be better managed and supervised and help improve their society with his science. 

 

To be fair I’m convinced the Black Walder is responsible for Stevron’s death. His own family members fear him as a man fully okay with kinslaying.

Edited by Canon Claude

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5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Genuine psychopath. Needlessly tortures people. No idea why Roose still keeps him around as he seems to be the obvious reason for the Bolton's downfall. His savagery is what is likely to turn the likes of the Dustins and Ryswells against Roose. 

He's gonna milk the boy until there's nothing left-he needs Ramsey to sire enough heirs with farya to where should he die for whatever ever reason the Boltons hold on the north is secure-I mean the infant mortality rate in a feudal society even among the nobility has to be high.

Lady Dustin would only turn on the Boltons if her love for Domeric should surpass her hatred for house Stark.

Which may very well not be the case.

I don't think Ramsey's cruelty will turn her away; she did smile in a way that reminded Theon of the bastard so there's probably a little monster in there.

Also, Roose has probably promised Dustin Ramsey's head after he's fulfilled his purpose.

The northern houses would be conspiring against Roose with or without Ramsey; and Roose knows this.

 

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2 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

To be fair I’m convinced the Black Walder is responsible for Stevron’s death. His own family members fear him as a man fully okay with kinslaying.

But none suspect him of Stevron's death. Nor does anyone in Robb's camp suspect Stevron's death  being foul play despite them being deep in enemy territory. 

Stevron's death seems to be a clear case of Infection, perhaps the most common killer of soldiers before the invention of antibiotics with minor wounds killing many soldiers. 

"My lords, your uncle Ser Stevron Frey was among those who lost their lives at Oxcross. He took a wound in the battle, Robb writes. It was not thought to be serious, but three days later he died in his tent, asleep."

Stevron, being already thought of as ancient, is not really much of an obstacle to Black Walder in the same way that his father, brother and niece are. It is also important to remember that Edwyn is paranoid when he accuses his brother being involved in the deaths of Ryman and Petyr (but not Stevron) as we know for a fact that this is down to the reanimated Lady Stoneheart and her branch of the BWB. 

32 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Also, Roose has probably promised Dustin Ramsey's head after he's fulfilled his purpose.

He has served his purpose and Roose has got other heirs on the way. 

32 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The northern houses would be conspiring against Roose with or without Ramsey; and Roose knows this.

But the Dustins and Ryswells would not. Roose does have some support in the North, from those as well as Kastark and Umber factions. His biggest obstacle in maintaining that support is the fact that when he dies his current heir, the bastard who he has legitimised, is a psychopath who Roose's actual supporters hate. 

GRRM has very clearly explained what will be the Bolton's eventual downfall, it is the fact that Lady Dustin can not risk Ramsay being her Lord. She will flip because of this. 

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On 2/6/2018 at 10:57 AM, Canon Claude said:

They’re all on the gallows, pleading for your mercy. The title says the rest.

1. Euron Greyjoy

2. Ramsay Bolton

3. Qyburn 

4. Black Walder Frey

5. The Weeper

Hanging is for those who broke the law.  The only ones on your death row who broke the laws are Ramsay (Lady Hornwood) and Euron (rebellion, calling himself king, and attacking the reach). 

Qyburn broke the equivalent of company policy and got fired.  Black Walder fought against a dangerous rebel who tried to steal half of the kingdom's lands.  That's not law breaking, that's law abiding.  The Weeper is a free man who answers to no one.  A man can do as a man pleases where he lives.  He is beyond the law as long as he stays on his side of the fence.  

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

rved his purpose and Roose has got other heirs on the way. 

Quote

Im talking about the heir to winterfell; Roose needs Ramsey to beget sons upon Farys to grant the Boltons legitimacy in terms of ruling the north.

The second he's gotten enough sons and they look relatively  healthy  Roose will kill  Ramsey; remember how he laughed at the thought of Ramsey ruling the north to Theon? Roose does not his intend for his bastard to truly be his successor;

But the Dustins and Ryswells would not. Roose does have some support in the North, from those as well as Kastark and Umber factions. His biggest obstacle in maintaining that support is the fact that when he dies his current heir, the bastard who he has legitimised, is a psychopath who Roose's actual supporters hate. 

GRRM has very clearly explained what will be the Bolton's eventual downfall, it is the fact that Lady Dustin can not risk Ramsay being her Lord. She will flip because of this.  

Are they conspiring now?

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4 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

To be fair I’m convinced the Black Walder is responsible for Stevron’s death. His own family members fear him as a man fully okay with kinslaying.

Ryman could also be behind his death.

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2 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

 Black Walder fought against a dangerous rebel who tried to steal half of the kingdom's lands.  That's not law breaking, that's law abiding. 

Rebel? What's the meaning of the word "rebel" when the Crown itself is outlawed, when the King is a bastard born of an adulterous and incestuous relationship?

I guess that in your eyes Claus von Stauffenberg was a treator, a rebel, a terrorist who deserved to be hanged?

I'm not a Stark fan but at leat Stark fans don't attack at the slightest opportunity, foaming at the mouth…

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On 2/6/2018 at 7:57 AM, Canon Claude said:

1. Euron Greyjoy

...

3. Qyburn

Nobody really understands what these guys are up to. They could just as easily be the ones who figure out how to save the world.

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12 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

Rebel? What's the meaning of the word "rebel" when the Crown itself is outlawed,

Outlawed by who?

12 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

when the King is a bastard born of an adulterous and incestuous relationship?

We know that for a fact, to the majority of Westeros it is nothing more than a rumor. Some chose to believe it others don't. 

12 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

I guess that in your eyes Claus von Stauffenberg was a treator, a rebel, a terrorist who deserved to be hanged?

A comeback worthy of Cathy Newman. 

12 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

I'm not a Stark fan but at leat Stark fans don't attack at the slightest opportunity, foaming at the mouth…

You really think that reply was someone foaming at the mouth? How so?

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