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Canon Claude

Spare one of these villains from execution and explain why

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16 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

The thing is, an answer as such, isn't really an appropriate response to the question asked

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Of course it is an appropriate response, I'm pretty sure at least one person gave a similar response to it. 

Just to clarify here, as my claim that such a response isn't appropriate, was probably a poor choice of wording on my part.

What I meant, is that such an answer is a non sequitur response. I never meant to imply that one making a response as this, was making an inappropriate comment. If one feels inclined to share their views on the matter, they have every right to, I just didn't feel compelled to do so myself.

Eta: lol, and of course, claiming that something is appropriate, just because another has done so, is yet another deductive fallacy.

Edited by Blackwater Revenant

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8 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

 

 

Not according to Merrett:

Yes, according to Merrett the phrase Why buy a cow when there were udders all around begging to be milked? seems to indicate that his sexual partners are more than willing

8 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

My point was that if  Edwyn was to be believed, then Black Walder was a molester.

eh? How do you get that from this?

 From what Edwyn tells me, though, I'd best pick one who hasn't flowered yet, or I'm like to find that Black Walder has been there first. I'll wager he's had Gatehouse Ami, and more than thrice.

None of that claims rape and it is quite specific in him having had sex with women old enough (in their society). You have brought up molestation, which is never mentioned.

8 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

 

If Merrett's to be believed, then he's a sketchy bastard who sleeps with lots of family members. I suppose without a team of Westrosi social workers and detectives, we won't be able to know for sure the degree of coercion involved.

As Merrett points out, there are lot of rumours around the Twins, most of them not true. But obviously Merrett is the east biased account given we are told that Edywn loathes hos brother and that Edywn is described as Oh, and Edwyn. Not as thick as his father, but as full of hate as a boil's full of pus

8 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

 

However, a man who seems to be sleeping with several family members is usually a "red flag" when it comes to sexual conduct. 

Three wives in arranged marriages and a cousin. And it is not that unusual in Westeros, their historical celebrities were brother and sister fuckers, obviously there is Cersei and Jaime/Lancel. Twyin and his cousin wife, Ned's cousin parents, Robert and his Estermont cousin, Lord Redywne and his cousin wife....

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14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

None of that claims rape and it is quite specific in him having had sex with women old enough (in their society). You have brought up molestation, which is never mentioned.

That's a properly weird assertion. If a man has slept with literally every female relative he has, the idea that they were all willing is surely a bit fantastical? 

 

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes, according to Merrett the phrase Why buy a cow when there were udders all around begging to be milked?

That's just a Westrosi version of "why buy beef burgers when you have steak at home" imo, not a claim that all the women were "beggin' for it". 

And saying, he's a man who "takes what he wanted" clearly implies coercion however you cut it. 

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

None of that claims rape and it is quite specific in him having had sex with women old enough (in their society). You have brought up molestation, which is never mentioned

Well I consider it molestation whether the society it happens in thinks it's ok or not. 

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Three wives in arranged marriages and a cousin. And it is not that unusual in Westeros, their historical celebrities were brother and sister fuckers, obviously there is Cersei and Jaime/Lancel. Twyin and his cousin wife, Ned's cousin parents, Robert and his Estermont cousin, Lord Redywne and his cousin wife...

You're mixing up two things here. Obviously marrying a cousin is not unheard of in Westros, but sleeping with cousins, sisters-in-law and mothers-in-law out of wedlock is probably just as taboo in Westros as it is in the real world, though perhaps for different reasons.

All this seems a bit semantic and strange to me. What I read from the Merrett POV and Daven's comments was a picture painted of a nasty piece of work who crept about the Twins getting in his relatives' pants. Obviously, if he's going after much younger cousins that's worse than just his brother's wife, but both would be frowned upon whatever the cultural norms with regards to age of consent and cousin-marriage. 

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Many would use line that "he takes what he wants" as proof that Black W is rapist, but same thing was said about Brandon Stark by Lady Dustin.

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17 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Many would use line that "he takes what he wants" as proof that Black W is rapist, but same thing was said about Brandon Stark by Lady Dustin.

True. We don't know enough about Brandon to really know how he behaved with regards to women though. 

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Oh, and another thing; Violating guest rights, and having an innocent person (a noble, at that) secretly abducted, tortured, and murdered - in order to cover up your own crimes - is not equivalent to proclaiming someone guilty, and punishing them for their (non existent) crimes - what an absurd notion.

I suppose Cercei and Jaime's crimes against Bran, can just be considered the Queen consort proclaiming Bran guilty, and them carrying out the punishment for his crimes. :rolleyes:

Edited by Blackwater Revenant

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8 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

True. We don't know enough about Brandon to really know how he behaved with regards to women though. 

I mean he doesn't seem to have a history of violating women; and I know people can sometimes have mixed feelings about their abusers but if their relationship just amounted to him just raping her I don't think its likely Barbary is even after all this time still infatuated with the guy.  I honestly don't think we've information as is to condemn the man. I take Merret's quote of you know "he's leecerous". He's the type of guy to which can easily charm women into sleeping with him and doesn't allow social mores to dictate who he wants to sleep with. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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Oh just thought of a defense as to why each(besides Qyburn and the weeper) should be kept from the gallows; their ranks. They are all(even though monsters)are of the nobility. They are entitled to special consideration in deciding their sentences; the watch should be appropriate to offer based on their rank no?  Not to say this fair-but under the system they live in don't they all qualify for this leincy given their status? 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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16 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

That's a properly weird assertion. If a man has slept with literally every female relative he has, the idea that they were all willing is surely a bit fantastical? 

That is also a weird conclusion to come to. Daven's clearly not being altogether serious when he says that to Jaime. 

Ser Daven snorted. "I'll wed and bed my stoat, never fear. I know what happened to Robb Stark. From what Edwyn tells me, though, I'd best pick one who hasn't flowered yet, or I'm like to find that Black Walder has been there first.

Is your argument really that Black Walder has slept with every single one of his female relatives? Because of a sarcastic remark from a rumour from a man who hates Black Walder and also claims he is working with the BWB?

 

We don't know exactly what Edwyn told Daven, we hear about it second hand when Daven is clearly not entirely serious, but even if we had surely you can see that Merret is a less biased and better judge than Edwyn is on the matter?

 

16 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

That's just a Westrosi version of "why buy beef burgers when you have steak at home" imo, not a claim that all the women were "beggin' for it". 

It is also not a claim that he took them by force. No on in the books has made that claim, that is a conclusion you have jumped to. 

16 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

And saying, he's a man who "takes what he wanted" clearly implies coercion however you cut it. 

In the language of 2018, yeah it may do, but clearly not always, once again you are jumping to a conclusion to fit the narrative you have created. 

In 2000 when this book was published that phrase would certainly not have had the same connotations (thanks to publicised acts by the likes of Weinstein, Louis CK etc) as it does now, nor in the medieval times. 

 

16 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Well I consider it molestation whether the society it happens in thinks it's ok or not. 

You consider having sex with women to be molestation? 

We know the four women he has been accused of having sex with. His great grandfather's seventh wife, a woman older than him, his older brother's wife, Myranda Caron, who is triple the age of Walder's younger brother so almost certainly older than BW and Fair Walda, who may only be a year or so younger than BW. 

16 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

You're mixing up two things here. Obviously marrying a cousin is not unheard of in Westros, but sleeping with cousins, sisters-in-law and mothers-in-law out of wedlock is probably just as taboo in Westros as it is in the real world, though perhaps for different reasons.

I'm not mixing anything up, I was responding to the argument you made about sleeping with family members being a red flag. You seem to ignore the fact that three of the four are not related to him by blood and those three at least two of them, likely all three, are in loveless arranged marriages. 

 

16 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

All this seems a bit semantic and strange to me. What I read from the Merrett POV and Daven's comments was a picture painted of a nasty piece of work who crept about the Twins getting in his relatives' pants.

That is not what Merrett claims. If anything his comments sound admirable as Merrett himself is not in a happy marriage while Daven is clearly not being 100% serious. 

Taking what Edwyn said as gospel would be like believing Lancel's account of what Robb did in the Westerlands. Not everything that is said is true and sometimes we have better sources, Tyrion being a better source than Lancel and Merrett being a better source than the information we heard second hand from Daven. 

16 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

 

Obviously, if he's going after much younger cousins

Who are these much younger cousins? Two, possibly three of the four women named have not been. 

16 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

 

that's worse than just his brother's wife, but both would be frowned upon whatever the cultural norms with regards to age of consent and cousin-marriage. 

Sure, frowned upon. However if they were forced why is Edywn not using that against him? Aegon Bloodborn was kicked out of the Twins, surely if Black Walder was raping his older brother's wife and father's wife action would be taken?

 

10 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

True. We don't know enough about Brandon to really know how he behaved with regards to women though. 

That seems a cop out. You are willing to use the phrase as evidence of molestation against one character and not the other. 

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6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Is your argument really that Black Walder has slept with every single one of his female relatives? Because of a sarcastic remark from a rumour from a man who hates Black Walder and also claims he is working with the BWB?

 

We don't know exactly what Edwyn told Daven, we hear about it second hand when Daven is clearly not entirely serious, but even if we had surely you can see that Merret is a less biased and better judge than Edwyn is on the matter?

Ok, we're going round in circles here, but I'll try again. 

I said, right at the beginning, that Edwyn was biased, what we were debating was the seriousness of the accusation not the reliability of it. 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

In the language of 2018, yeah it may do, but clearly not always, once again you are jumping to a conclusion to fit the narrative you have created. 

In 2000 when this book was published that phrase would certainly not have had the same connotations (thanks to publicised acts by the likes of Weinstein, Louis CK etc) as it does now, nor in the medieval times. 

In had exactly the same connotations in 2000. You could take it to mean he was just a forceful character, or something more sinister. Given what we know of Black Walder I'd probably go for the latter, but your call I guess. 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You consider having sex with women to be molestation? 

We know the four women he has been accused of having sex with. His great grandfather's seventh wife, a woman older than him, his older brother's wife, Myranda Caron, who is triple the age of Walder's younger brother so almost certainly older than BW and Fair Walda, who may only be a year or so younger than BW. 

No. I was making the point, my original point, that if he was sleeping with young girls just after they hit puberty (Edwyn's accusation), then that's molestation. Again, you can dismiss Edwyn's accusations, and as I said in my FIRST comment on this, Edwyn has an axe to grind, so you would be well justified in doing so.

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Taking what Edwyn said as gospel

In my FIRST comment, I cast doubt on Edwyn's version. I'm afraid we're going to continue to go around in circles if you don't acknowledge that and debate with what I'm actually saying. 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Who are these much younger cousins? Two, possibly three of the four women named have not been. 

I was comparing the two different stories, Merrett's and Edwyn's, and suggesting that of course Edwyn's are more serious. I acknowledge that Edwyn is not a reliable witness, but my original comment acknowledged that as well so please stop ignoring it. ]

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sure, frowned upon. However if they were forced why is Edywn not using that against him? Aegon Bloodborn was kicked out of the Twins, surely if Black Walder was raping his older brother's wife and father's wife action would be taken?

I never suggested he raped Edwyn's wife.

This is definitely going nowhere, so I'll try and move us on to some sort of consensus. Let me know if you dispute any of these points.

1) Edwyn's accusations would suggest that he was a nasty piece of work who slept with his younger relatives. However, these accusations are unreliable given their enmity. 

2) Merrett's POV suggested much less serious behaviour, but sleeping with cousins out of wedlock, brother's wives and mothers in law would still be considered wrong in Westros, or in the modern day. 

3) Shagging about with multiple relatives is creepy even if some of them are in laws as opposed to blood relatives.

4) If those relatives have just hit puberty, that's a whole new level of vile. 

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On 16/02/2018 at 9:55 AM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Ok, we're going round in circles here, but I'll try again. 

Passive aggressive much?

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I said, right at the beginning, that Edwyn was biased, what we were debating was the seriousness of the accusation not the reliability of it. 

Know, I have been pretty clear that I have been debating the reliability of it. 

I don't think he is reliable given what we have been told about him. And the fact that we have not even heard what he has said, but only hearsay from a flippant remark from Daven sullies the reliability even further. 

 

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In had exactly the same connotations in 2000.

 No, it did not. The connotation attached to that phrase are much worse in this year and the last couple with the metoo movement and many examples of bosses taking things to far. 

And it should be pointed out that is just one understanding of the phrase, it does not mean rape or molestation. That is a jump you have made 

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You could take it to mean he was just a forceful character, or something more sinister. Given what we know of Black Walder I'd probably go for the latter, but your call I guess. 

We know pretty little about him. We do know that Merrett has three daughters, would he not be more concerned if he thought Black Walder was a danger to them being molested?

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No. I was making the point, my original point, that if he was sleeping with young girls just after they hit puberty (Edwyn's accusation),

We don't hear Edwy's accusation, we hear a joke Daven has made about what ever Edwyen has said. 

And the joke is that women not considered old enough in their society to have sex will not have had sex with Black Walder. There was no comment on the age of the women that Black Walder has slept with, but that it could have been any ADULT. 

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then that's molestation.

Except is it not. Not in their society. 

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Again, you can dismiss Edwyn's accusations, and as I said in my FIRST comment on this, Edwyn has an axe to grind, so you would be well justified in doing so.

Well it would be great to actually know what Edwyn said. You can't really dismiss something we have not even heard. 

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In my FIRST comment, I cast doubt on Edwyn's version. I'm afraid we're going to continue to go around in circles if you don't acknowledge that and debate with what I'm actually saying. 

eh? This was your first quote on the subject

"I get the impression it's a bit worse than that. Daven seems to imply that Black Walder's pretty much had sex with every Frey girl who's hit puberty. Granted, he heard that from Emmon, who has an axe to grind, but if it's true it goes a bit beyond hooking up with a cousin or two, and makes him a serial molester"

I am only countering what you believe, and trying to add some further information. You came to your conclusion on second hand information that Daven was making a joke about (he snorted before saying it) and all I've been trying to do is point out that there is a more accurate witness than hearing what Edywn has said second hand. 

 

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I was comparing the two different stories, Merrett's and Edwyn's, and suggesting that of course Edwyn's are more serious. I acknowledge that Edwyn is not a reliable witness, but my original comment acknowledged that as well so please stop ignoring it. ]

I have not ignored it. What do you want me to do? Highlight it as the top of every response to you so you know that I know that you have said it?

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I never suggested he raped Edwyn's wife.

No, you suggested that he molested her. 

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This is definitely going nowhere, so I'll try and move us on to some sort of consensus. Let me know if you dispute any of these points.

Sure 

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1) Edwyn's accusations would suggest that he was a nasty piece of work who slept with his younger relatives. However, these accusations are unreliable given their enmity. 

No, as we have no idea what Edwyn has said. Daven has pointed out that the only way to be sure to marry someone Black Walder has not had sex with is too marry someone who, in their society, is not ready for sex. 

 

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2) Merrett's POV suggested much less serious behaviour, but sleeping with cousins out of wedlock, brother's wives and mothers in law would still be considered wrong in Westros, or in the modern day. 

Sure. But in the context of this debate, the accusations about his moral failings in regards to seem trivial to some of the accussations labelled at the other characters, no??

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3) Shagging about with multiple relatives is creepy even if some of them are in laws as opposed to blood relatives.

Creepy? Wrong choice of word. 

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4) If those relatives have just hit puberty, that's a whole new level of vile. 

And that is a claim no one has actually made (as far as we are aware). 

Merrett, who even points out that these may ore may not be rumours, points to four women, three likely older and one younger but still within Black Walder's accepted age bracket. 

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