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Varysblackfyre321

Tyrion Laninster's power plays

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Yes I'm taking inspiration from this thread:

So how about it people?

My personal favorite is when he's faced with the hill men and manages to talk these blood thirsty savages down without looking the tiniest bit afraid of their sharpened sticks,

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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Maybe not a exactly a "power play" but this comes to mind.

"I am not threatening the king, ser, I am educating my nephew. Bronn, Timett, the next time Ser Boros opens his mouth, kill him." The dwarf smiled. "Now that was a threat, ser. See the difference?"

Also slipping something into Cersei's drink so he could hold court uninterrupted (mainly to discuss the Stark peace terms) is pretty good too.

There's plenty more but I'll leave those for the other commenters. 

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Tyrion saved Jorah, Penny, and himself.  He managed to get Yezzan to trust him.  Jorah and Penny were lost but Tyrion's planning got them accepted with the sell swords.  This play also took away Casterly Rock from Jaime and Cersei should they have the good fortune to make it back to Westeros.  His contracts basically gave the Lannister lands to the mercenary officers.

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20 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yes I'm taking inspiration from this thread:

So how about it people?

My personal favorite is when he's faced with the hill men and manages to talk these blood thirsty savages down without looking the tiniest bit afraid of their sharpened sticks,

His small size is non threatening and he accepts insults.  Helpful in that situation.

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Tyrion's trial at the Eyrie.  He plays Bron, Lysa, Catelyn, and Mord to squeeze out of a tough situation.  Money made it happen but it was still smart.

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Killing Tywin.  He got rid of the only man who could bind the kingdom together.  Tywin was not a moral man but he was effective at governing.  Jaime and Cersei are not good at ruling.  This is the beginning of the end for the Lions.

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16 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Killing Tywin.  He got rid of the only man who could bind the kingdom together.  Tywin was not a moral man but he was effective at governing.  Jaime and Cersei are not good at ruling.  This is the beginning of the end for the Lions.

Wasn't his rational decision. It wasn't a political play.

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His Cyvasse game with fAegon to trick him into invading Westeros without Daenerys is pure awesomeness. 

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1 hour ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Wasn't his rational decision. It wasn't a political play.

It was rational. If Tyrion hadn't done it Tywin would've come up to him and simply knocked him out

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It was rational. If Tyrion hadn't done it Tywin would've come up to him and simply knocked him out

He could've just escape in the first place. 

 

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Tyrion's best power play was when he smashed the glass on the ground to show the chances for peace with the North. It was blunt and direct, and in front of his father. Tywin's strategy was to listen as his bannermen bickered until hearing something worthwhile. Tyrion, who is not at all subtle and couldn't help himself, was also being fairly shrewd when he chose a fairly vulgar means of getting attention.

It's not just that he smashed a glass, it's that what he said was then worth listening to. The realignment of Tywin's view of him was essential in his later political power. Although Tywin still hated him, he had a grudging respect for his intellectual capabilities.

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20 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Wasn't his rational decision. It wasn't a political play.

It was emotion.  It's kinslaying.  It took down the Lannisters at the expense of damning his soul.  Serving Daenerys may be his road to redemption and his way back to the Light.

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19 hours ago, Makk said:

His Cyvasse game with fAegon to trick him into invading Westeros without Daenerys is pure awesomeness. 

It's not awesome.  He doomed the lad to death by lions.  It was bitterness and spite.

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On 2/7/2018 at 9:05 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

Tyrion saved Jorah, Penny, and himself.  He managed to get Yezzan to trust him.  Jorah and Penny were lost but Tyrion's planning got them accepted with the sell swords.  This play also took away Casterly Rock from Jaime and Cersei should they have the good fortune to make it back to Westeros.  His contracts basically gave the Lannister lands to the mercenary officers.

I agree with all said but this particular move was like OMG, what are you doing Tyrion! (from me) when I first read it but then later realised that it is in fact his insurance policy and his way out of being a sellsword forever or something.   The Second Son's know very well that the only way they will ever get paid these huge sums is if he takes Casterly and for that he has to play the game and they have to let him go to Dany and to Westeros in due course.  In the chapter from Winds, Ben Plum seemed very worried that he would desert but he is going to have to let him do it.   

Also, okay yes he persuaded the Second Sons to take sides probably just to save his skin and probably also because Dany sounds fairer than the slavers (and he has been a slave, albeit for a brief period).  Still, yes she could decide upon her return to have him executed just for what Jaime and Tywin did.  However, he doesn't come "empty handed" in that, okay if we discount Victarion (who I am sure is going to do something stupid - either try to take a dragon and die pretty much like Quentin) or murder her husband lol (could be wrong of course...), he has handed her, albeit not single-handedly Dany a victory in her absence.  That has to count for something, I reckon.

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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6 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

It's not awesome.  He doomed the lad to death by lions.  It was bitterness and spite.

Okay, the question here relates to power moves that were clever not necessarily morally right.  Still, I think yes, there is a lot of bitterness and desire for revenge at this moment in time in ADWD in Tyrion.  Still, I think there is a little more to it that that.  When he is at Illyrio he appears not to be able to put his finger on Illyrio's interest in the IT but he suspects there is something more than altruism, he sees the statue of young Illyrio and I think his interactions with Jon Con and Co told him that he is not the real thing.  Now, in fairness he also warns Aegon in the cyvasse game that it is dangerous to leave the dragon too far behind.  Aegon could have taken this as the "advice" instead of what Tyrion advised him more openly and with less metaphor.  Still probably not terribly fair on a young man eager to prove himself great in battle who has been raised for that purpose, so I have to grant you this wasn't very kind towards Aegon.  Still, I think Tyrion, despite of course being motivated by getting Cersei to loose her power, is not certain that this would mean doom for Aegon; I think he thinks it could go either way.  If Aegon wins the throne and still wants Dany, he has derailed no plans.  If the people think him a fraud he would have been doomed anyway and brought Dany down with him, if it weren't for her dragons I guess, but that would imply ruling by fear not by any sort of devotion.

I am not sure if the "realm" is the main concern of Tyrion in the early part of ADWD but I am sure he doesn't want a potentially unpredictable and totally untested ruler if there is another alternative.  Dany has made mistakes but she is much stronger with dragons, Unsullied etc and okay, if Dany sides with Aegon or marries him and he is proved a fraud this could taint her greatly too, so may there was a case of let's see if Westeros accept him or not before that marriage or alliance proceeds.  I think Tyrion wants to test Aegon and his pals before allowing, if he can help him, for him to win by attaching himself to Dany.

As for it being certain defeact and death for Aegon I think he will certainly have a victory.  Tyrion knows just how very fragmented Westeros is; we have Stannis, the Boltons, the Lannister about to be very, very at odds with the Tyrells, the Faith to complicate matters further lol so he may have reckon his chances (Aegon's) reasonable.  The small folk are sick of the war of the 5 Kings, and he is not one of them, he knows there will be a power vacuum sooner rather than later.  If Aegon can take advantage of it, he could well yet rule (which I think he will).  Now of course, will people follow him or declare him an impostor, there is a 50/50 chance there I reckon...  If he is well received and Dany accepts him, they could still both rule...  I don't see it totally clear cut in terms of sacrificing the boy for his own revenge purposes.  He has the Golden Company, elephants and is backed by money... Yes, if this aids his revenge of course that is (in the frame of mind Tyrion is at that point) a huge bonus but "me thinks" that one of the roles that Tyrion plays in ADWD is as a "tester" for Aegon just like one tests a new product.  Is he legit?  Can he pass as legit? (whether he is or not). What is he actually going to do/capable of doing?

Tyrion had fleeting thoughts about crowning Myrcella and he knew that could mean her death.  He wanted to hurt Cersei so much that the thought crossed his mind but not for long and he didn't act on it.  I reckon, but of course this is pure speculation, that if Aegon had taken the IT and he had any power to influence him, he would probably ask him to spare Tommen and Myrcella.  Since he would have gotten the Crown because in part he chose to take his advice, he might had listen.  If someone else is victorious, say Stannis, it would have been totally out of his hands.

Spite towards Cersei, hell yes!!! now he dislikes Jon Con and possibly Aegon to a point but on the other hand he didn't like Jorah all that much and saved him at least a couple of times...  He wants to be the monster earlier in the book but I don't think he was capable of carrying out all the horrible things that crossed his mind, even in his darkest hour.  I think he had a nervous breakdown to be honest that he is beginning to recover from.

Another thought, Tyrion has very first hand experience of young rulers such as Joffrey.  I am sure he doesn't see Aegon as a type of Joffrey but young untested people can do very impulsive things.  I am sure he admires Robb for winning all his battles and he disapproved of the Red Wedding, although I guess Tywin made a good point too... just a truly horrible and immoral one. Still Robb's marriage was his death sentence.  I reckon Tyrion has a "healthy skepticism" of untested rulers.  Dany is one too (relatively new to the game), but mayhaps not so much anymore.  She has had hard decisions to make and at least we do have an incline of what she may or may not do.  With Aegon "we know nothing..." and neither does Tyrion.

I find that manipulation very interesting but I feel is very multi-layered and by far more complex than sacrificing a young boy to get his revenge.  There is that possibility, that this would be detrimental to Aegon but also the possibility that that gets him the Crown but this boy needs to be tested in the real political and battle field.  His training seems a little "e-learning" to me and that makes him a very wild card which if goes wrong could ruin Dany's chances, if married or something...

Just my two cents but yes I will grant you that Tyrion understands that this could go bad for Aegon and goes ahead with the advice nonetheless.  Still, he also knows it could have the opposite effect and win him the crown...  To me this is one of his most "grey" but not "black" decisions.  I would say grey because he has dubious motivations re Cersei that tilt him that way but in terms of harming Aegon, only if he goes for it, and this could make him or break him....

 

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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35 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

n.  Still, I think Tyrion, despite of course being motivated by getting Cersei to loose her power, is not certain that this would mean doom for Aegon; I think he thinks it could go either way.  If Aegon wins the throne and still wants Dany, he has derailed no plans.  If the people think him a fraud he would have been doomed anyway and brought Dany down with him, if it weren't for her dragons I guess, but that would imply ruling by fear not by any sort of devotion.

It's clear he didn't really think he'd actually move Griff to take his advice. He actually has an ounch of worry for his and the crew's safety. He's grown fond of them in a way after all.

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41 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It's clear he didn't really think he'd actually move Griff to take his advice. He actually has an ounch of worry for his and the crew's safety. He's grown fond of them in a way after all.

I personally think he was testing the waters but yes that he had personal motivations when so bent on revenge against Cersei to think that if it panned out (although I agree he later reflects about being surprised) he could be trying, for one thing, to test the boy (and also there was the comment warning him about leaving the dragon too far behind) in more ways than one (to see him in action as he is totally untested) and to test Westeros reaction to his sudden appearance.  As for the crew etc, he seems to get on with Septa Lemore.  He knows she is important somehow but if he has figured out off page who she is, I haven't yet lol.  I did have a theory once about her possibly being Tyene's mother but apparently the time line disproved it lol.

I don't think he wishes Aegon harm per se in a personal way, although yes Tyrion is not above using someone as a pawn if he finds it unavoidable.

Tyrion is my all time favourite character, still he is grey but why give that advice if he didn't intend for Aegon to take it?  My guess is that perhaps he was simply testing, trying to know more about the boy's potential modus operandum; say whether he would wait to have strong allies (like Dany) or whether he is just a little in the impulsive side (like other young rulers are often prone to be).

However, from a narrative point of view, I think Tyrion is getting what he wanted in terms of military harassment for Cersei but this in itself implies that he is not throwing him to the lions as such but throwing the lions to Aegon... although I have a hard time believing that, when is not in the darkest deeps of a temporary mental condition that appears severe, he would be willing to sacrifice his niece and nephew, who had done nothing wrong and he was always fond of them.

Now, Jon Con and Tyrion despise each other in a socialising context, but I would say there is no hatred on either part, just personality incompatibility.  Tyrion was rescued when he fell on the water and he might have done similarly for the others... (although speculation again).  I think there is a huge difference between saying "Oh, gods, no, I don't want to go for a drink with this guy" say and being willing to sacrifice their lives unless absolutely necessary (in your own mind, not necessarily meaning it has to be objective).

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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A more fair statement might be Tyrion has nothing against young Aegon or young Griffin but if he could make use of the naive kid to harass his sister, he would.  In other words, Tyrion is not going to hold back from getting revenge on his sister even if it meant putting young Griffin in danger.  

I think some of the book readers who also watch the show have allowed themselves to become influenced by the alternative character on the screen.  The "most moral man in the universe" on screen is not the same character that we are discussing here.  That other is fan fiction.  The Tyrion we should be talking about here on the book forum is the one penned by George RR Martin, the genuine article.  The real Tyrion will not hesitate to throw Griff to the lions if it served his own interests.  Tyrion is a grey character.

Griffin showed impatience and lightning quick temper.  I guess Tyrion had his number then and convinced him to make a rash move.  With respects to the Morgana, I don't think Tyrion was testing the kid for rule fitness when he sent him abroad.  Tyrion knew he had his mark when the boy lost his temper over a game of cyvasse.  That is telling because cyvasse represents the bigger game.  

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On 2/8/2018 at 3:35 PM, Makk said:

His Cyvasse game with fAegon to trick him into invading Westeros without Daenerys is pure awesomeness. 

I forgot about this one. When he later heard about Griff and company possibly sailing west Tyrion seems very surprised. Almost like he was just playing around with the kid and never thought that that seed he planting would take root so quickly. 

And @Agent Orange, I don't think anyone on this board has forgotten the dark greyness of Tyrion. 

Edited by Foot_Of_The_King

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