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Varysblackfyre321

Theory: Rh'lor is the Stormgod.

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Another Thread had pointed out parallels between the Night's king and the Shrouded lord 

In it is noted both legends have a woman having given a kiss which resulted in a soul being given; someone had pointed out there seems to be a trend of kissing having power in the books.  This got me thinking of the Ironborn who've a tradition of nearly drowning each other and then attempt to give a sort of CPR(which I posit may hint the lady who'd seduced the Night's king did not simply reside in the north) upon someone to resuscitate them while others watch in pray for the drowned god's favor  which got me thinking of how the Red priests have their own custom which seem eerily similar; the last kiss.

Now, the red priests typically see this as simply as a last right to the dead; but we see Thoros unintentionally suceed with presumably the Ironborn do and bring back the dead through this tradition.

Out of all the religions we have been shown in Patheos the doctrine of the Drowned God and that of Rh'lor are the closest. 

They both say their gods rely upon on human sacrifice to feed them strength, they both have a great enemy to which they are still at war with to this day.

Their polar opposites.

The followers of the drowned God (the Ironborn) are supposed to give their sacrifice through drowning them, the priests through burning.

 

And we've seen Rh'lor give wind out to those using the seas to travel who've offered him sacrifice; would not a storm God do that?

 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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I posted essentially the same thing on a thread several months back.  It definitely makes Patchface a lot more interesting if R'hllor = Storm God, The Great Other = Drowned God.

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58 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I posted essentially the same thing on a thread several months back.  It definitely makes Patchface a lot more interesting if R'hllor = Storm God, The Great Other = Drowned God.

There is the bar sinister; the hurricane force storm that chases Tyrion across the sea:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IX

Might be we'll make Meereen after all, Tyrion thought.

But when he clambered up the ladder to the sterncastle and looked off from the stern, his smile faltered. Blue sky and blue sea here, but off west … I have never seen a sky that color. A thick band of clouds ran along the horizon. "A bar sinister," he said to Penny, pointing.

"What does that mean?" she asked.

"It means some big bastard is creeping up behind us."

He was surprised to find that Moqorro and two of his fiery fingers had joined them on the sterncastle. It was only midday, and the red priest and his men did not normally emerge till dusk. The priest gave him a solemn nod. "There you see it, Hugor Hill. God's wroth. The Lord of Light will not be mocked."

Moqorro attributes the bar sinister to the Lord of Light.  I believe the bar sinister is a reference to a the reverse sigil of a bastard.  A big bastard or great bastard to use Tyrion's turn of phrase.  So I wonder if this is a reference to Bloodraven and the storm is a manifestation of the power of the old gods.  It would be a curious thing if BR is R'hllor.  

There is an inside joke to the bar sinister as well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Bar_Sinister  

Edited by LynnS

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It certainly makes what Victarion is doing more interesting, sacrificing to both the Drowned God and R'hllor at the same time, with the same sacrifice. 

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40 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

It certainly makes what Victarion is doing more interesting, sacrificing to both the Drowned God and R'hllor at the same time, with the same sacrifice. 

It adds to the strangeness of Thoros resurrecting Beric in a place where the Red God isn't supposed to have any power.  Not to mention Bloodraven breaking into Melisandre's firey visions.

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

It adds to the strangeness of Thoros resurrecting Beric in a place where the Red God isn't supposed to have any power.  Not to mention Bloodraven breaking into Melisandre's firey visions.

I think it's a combination of things. At the very least, when Beric is killed by the Hound, we know the Brotherhood is in a place with weirwood roots. And this is the first time we have such an indication. The old powers were already waking in Game's very first chapter.

And Mel is at the Wall. She says her magic is stronger. It could be that Bloodrave broke through using the magic from the Wall. I imagine Mel will live to regret the burning of the godswood at Storm's End.

There's something that struck me in the interaction between Arya and Jaqen when she asks him to swear that he will help her free the northmen that were brought at Harrenhal. 

Quote

"Swear it," Arya said. "Swear it by the gods."
"By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, I swear it." He placed a hand in the mouth of the weirwood. "By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it."
 (Arya IX, Clash 47)

The god of sea is presumably the Drowned God, the god of air could be the storm god, I guess (?).

But then he says and even him of fire, which I find strange. Is it that the Faceless Men don't really like R'hllor?

Of all the gods named, I find R'hllor to be the strangest one. For one, the emblem used which is a fiery heart. Did R'hllorism come before or after the Long Night, because to me, it seems they took the fiery heart of Nissa Nissa as their emblem and that the cult of R'hllor may have been born from that. I know they could adopted the emblem after the Long Night, but it wouldn't be the first time religion took a story and made it their own in order to attract followers. 

The other part that I find puzzling is that this is a religion that uses fire, blood and sorcery, things that were all the rage in Valyria before the doom, yet the Valyrians had their own gods, and the religion doesn't seem to have taken with the Targaryens or fire-loving Aerys.

Edited by Widow's Watch

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

It adds to the strangeness of Thoros resurrecting Beric in a place where the Red God isn't supposed to have any power.  Not to mention Bloodraven breaking into Melisandre's firey visions.

Wait where do you get the impression the red God should have no power in the riverlands?

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21 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

presumably the Drowned God, the god of air could be the storm god, I guess (?).

 

Gods* gods of the sea and air-meaning more than what the Ironborn label the drowned God-but only one of fire? Unlikely I think he called Rh'lor out not because it's the lone exception but because there is animosity between the Fire priests and FM. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

The god of sea is presumably the Drowned God, the god of air could be the storm god, I guess (?).

But then he says and even him of fire, which I find strange. Is it that the Faceless Men don't really like R'hllor?

Yes, that's right! He names the elements sea, air and fire.  I've always associated the drowned god with a greenseer north of the Wall.  Yet it's sea and air together that make a storm.   I'm reminded of the oath of crannogman that starts with swearing by earth and water. Perhaps there aren't separate gods for each but gods that combine elements.  R'hllor does seem like he is separate from the other gods that Jaqen mentions.  It's almost like he adds him reluctantly.  But then Jaqen hair color is half white and half red.  Which reminds me of the last line of the crannogman's oath:  swearing by ice and fire. 

In addition, Jaqen places his hand in the mouth of the weirwood.  That's very strange no?  Like placing a key inside a lock.  The same thing happens with Jon when Othor attempts to jam his hand into Jon's mouth.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon VII

Dead Othor slammed into him, knocking him off his feet.

Jon's breath went out of him as the fallen table caught him between his shoulder blades. The sword, where was the sword? He'd lost the damned sword! When he opened his mouth to scream, the wight jammed its black corpse fingers into Jon's mouth. Gagging, he tried to shove it off, but the dead man was too heavy. Its hand forced itself farther down his throat, icy cold, choking him. Its face was against his own, filling the world. Frost covered its eyes, sparkling blue. Jon raked cold flesh with his nails and kicked at the thing's legs. He tried to bite, tried to punch, tried to breathe …

What do you think Jaqen is doing when he puts his hand inside the mouth of the weirwood.  It means something in conjunction with the oath, like he is binding it in some way. 

Edited by LynnS

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Wait where do you get the impression the red God should have no power in the riverlands?

At one point the Ghost of High Heart tells Thoros to search his fires but not to bother since the red god has no power on her hill.  So not specifically the Riverlands but in proximity to god's groves even when they are cut down.  She says their power has been diminished but still exists.

It reminds me that Melisandre can't see behind the wolf mask when she sees BR and Bran in her fires.  Also that Dany can't see who the great wolf is when she sees their shadows during Mirri's tent ritual, but she can see the man limned in flame.  She also can't see who is wearing the wolf's head in her vision of the red wedding in the House of Undying. 

I'm also not sure that Melisandre knows a skinchanger when she sees one or that it was her who destroyed Varamyr inside Orell's eagle.

There seem to be some limiting factors to the powers of the red lot.  Bran is certainly hidden from Melisandre and he tells us 'you can see them, but they can't see you.' 

In fact, it Bran's identity is hidden from Melisandre by the shapes that he takes and she can only see him as a boy with a wolf's head; does she also see Hodor as another shape that Bran takes?  In other words she can see Hodor but not Bran inside him:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

Devan fed fresh logs to the fire until the flames leapt up again, fierce and furious, driving the shadows back into the corners of the room, devouring all her unwanted dreams. The dark recedes again … for a little while. But beyond the Wall, the enemy grows stronger, and should he win the dawn will never come again. She wondered if it had been his face that she had seen, staring out at her from the flames. No. Surely not. His visage would be more frightening than that, cold and black and too terrible for any man to gaze upon and live. The wooden man she had glimpsed, though, and the boy with the wolf's face … they were his servants, surely … his champions, as Stannis was hers.
Hodor is not a very frightening figure.  So Melisandre sees: the wooden man, the boy with the wolf's face and Hodor?

   

Edited by LynnS

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

At one point the Ghost of High Heart tells Thoros to search his fires but not to bother since the red god has no power on her hill.  So not specifically the Riverlands but in proximity to god's groves even when they are cut down.  She says their power has been diminished but still exists.

It reminds me that Melisandre can't see behind the wolf mask when she sees BR and Bran in her fires.  Also that Dany can't see who the great wolf is when she sees their shadows during Mirri's tent ritual, but she can see the man limned in flame.  She also can't see who is wearing the wolf's head in her vision of the red wedding in the House of Undying. 

I'm also not sure that Melisandre knows a skinchanger when she sees one or that it was her who destroyed Varamyr inside Orell's eagle.

There seem to be some limiting factors to the powers of the red lot.  Bran is certainly hidden from Melisandre and he tells us 'you can see them, but they can't see you.' 

In fact, it Bran's identity is hidden from Melisandre by the shapes that he takes and she can only see him as a boy with a wolf's head; does she also see Hodor as another shape that Bran takes?  In other words she can see Hodor but not Bran inside him:

Hodor is not a very frightening figure.  So Melisandre sees: the wooden man, the boy with the wolf's face and Hodor?

   

Ah thank you. And yes, I think the red priests powers have been shown to be limited. Like with Stannis's "magic" sword. Aemon sees the flames that are set upon it to be nothing more than a glamor; Melisandre can't make the real thing.

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43 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Ah thank you. And yes, I think the red priests powers have been shown to be limited. Like with Stannis's "magic" sword. Aemon sees the flames that are set upon it to be nothing more than a glamor; Melisandre can't make the real thing.

You know that is interesting for another reason.  Aemon thinks the sword should have some heat and obviously Melisandre's sword is glamored but the true story of the sword might be something else:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

"He would know." Aemon Targaryen had seen nine kings upon the Iron Throne. He had been a king's son, a king's brother, a king's uncle. "I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."

So the sword isn't warm until thrust into his beloved Nissa Nissa and we have this strange tale of AA thrusting a sword into the belly of the beast.  Here is what happens to Dany when she transforms into a dragon in her dreams:
 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

Her blood also boils and turns to steam.  So is the beast a dragon and is AA's beloved a dragon?  Certainly Drogon represents Dany's beloved.   I wonder if Melisandre intends to sacrifice herself to transform Stannis' sword or maybe someone who is Stannis' beloved?  Shireen maybe? 

Edited by LynnS

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17 hours ago, LynnS said:

What do you think Jaqen is doing when he puts his hand inside the mouth of the weirwood.  It means something in conjunction with the oath, like he is binding it in some way. 

I tend to not look for a deeper meaning in these things, tbh. Jon said that Ned believed no man could tell a lie in front of a heart tree because the gods know when a man is lying, and Jaqen knows who Arya really is, seen her praying to the old gods, so maybe he's making sure she knows that he is being truthful and will keep his oath. Plus she just named him as her third death. 

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On February 13, 2018 at 7:08 AM, Widow's Watch said:

I tend to not look for a deeper meaning in these things, tbh. Jon said that Ned believed no man could tell a lie in front of a heart tree because the gods know when a man is lying, and Jaqen knows who Arya really is, seen her praying to the old gods, so maybe he's making sure she knows that he is being truthful and will keep his oath. Plus she just named him as her third death. 

Mance told a lie in front of the werewood trees.

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26 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Mance told a lie in front of the werewood trees.

I can't say I remember that, but the whole Ramsay/Arya marriage that happened in front of the heart tree was one big lie too. Jaqen tells Arya that the gods should not be mocked. Some take oaths more seriously than others.

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2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I can't say I remember that, but the whole Ramsay/Arya marriage that happened in front of the heart tree was one big lie too. Jaqen tells Arya that the gods should not be mocked. Some take oaths more seriously than others.

Mance swore in front of the heart tree  he'd never abandon his post; he ditched it because he wasn't allowed to break dress protocol.

Mance said he'd have no wives; he married a wilding.

Mance said he'd never father any children; he did.

And his life is great now because of it. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Mance swore in front of the heart tree  he'd never abandon his post; he ditched it because he wasn't allowed to break dress protocol.

Mance said he'd have no wives; he married a wilding.

Mance said he'd never father any children; he did.

And his life is great now because of it. 

I thought you were talking about something else that happened after he left the NW. I'm not sure his life is great, though. 

His wife died, his son is thousands of leagues away from him. If the pink letter was written by Ramsay, then I wouldn't say that him being in a cage in the dead of winter wearing a cloak of skins is all that great.

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1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

I thought you were talking about something else that happened after he left the NW. I'm not sure his life is great, though. 

His wife died, his son is thousands of leagues away from him. If the pink letter was written by Ramsay, then I wouldn't say that him being in a cage in the dead of winter wearing a cloak of skins is all that great.

He had a wife, his son appears to be going to be by awesome group of warrior-sailor women, and if the pink letter is false(likely it is), then Mance's tale isn't over and may have a glorious end to a glorious life. 

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