Polygamy in the Faith of the Seven

[Vaedys Targaryen]

This is just a real quick question: Is polygamy legal in the Faith? We know that the Faith encourages marriages between a man and a woman, but does it specifically say that you absolutely can't be married to multiple people?

[Lord Varys]

It is what the High Septon says when Prince Maegor takes a second wife in Alys Harroway. And Maegor himself acknowledges that 'lesser men' are ruled by the doctrines of the Faith.

The only precedents for polygamists in Westeros are ancient First Men kings following the old gods (a Gardener king and the bastard king Ronard Storm) and the legendary founder kings of the Andals like Hugor of the Hill - but those go back to days before the doctrines of the Faith as such have been established (if we assume Hugor was a real person at all).

[Deepbollywood Motte]

35 minutes ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

This is just a real quick question: Is polygamy legal in the Faith? We know that the Faith encourages marriages between a man and a woman, but does it specifically say that you absolutely can't be married to multiple people?

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Polygamy

"The Faith of the Seven does not permit polygamy and considers it a sin.^[2][3]"

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

The Targaryens dropped that custom after Maegor the Cruel. King Jaehaerys had assured the High Septon the Targaryens would only have a wife and would only marry again when the spouse died. It was part of the pact between the Iron Throne and the Faith of the Seven, it helped to end the Faith Militant Uprising.

That also makes me think that even if Rhaegar married Lyanna secretly (by a heart tree, not by annuling a marriage that already sired two children and the wife was very much alive), the Faith would have not accepted that.

[RagnarokKing]

3 hours ago, Shadow of Asshai said:

The Targaryens dropped that custom after Maegor the Cruel. King Jaehaerys had assured the High Septon the Targaryens would only have a wife and would only marry again when the spouse died. It was part of the pact between the Iron Throne and the Faith of the Seven, it helped to end the Faith Militant Uprising.

...

Prove it. Show me the quote from the books that proves Jaehaerys made this promise to the High Septon.

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 hours ago, Deepbollywood Motte said:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Polygamy

"The Faith of the Seven does not permit polygamy and considers it a sin.^[2][3]"

So if R+L=J Jon would still be a bastard right? This has always been a little confusing for me 

[Deepbollywood Motte]

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So if R+L=J Jon would still be a bastard right? This has always been a little confusing for me 

I believe so, but there have been a lot of suggestions how this might play out. IMO it doesn't really matter because I don't believe in the whole 'Jon will become the king in the end and he will be the best ever!' thing. 

For the ice & fire thing it doesn't really matter if he is legitimate or not, only blood does I think. That is if R+L=J is true... I like to stay away from those discussions because it always gets messy and I can't help but cringe at to much speculation. I like to stick to what we know

[Ygrain]

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So if R+L=J Jon would still be a bastard right? This has always been a little confusing for me 

In the Faith, perhaps - but the Faith considers incest an abominable sin, too, yet the Targaryen incestous marriages were given a pass. So, if you can get away with one exception, you might as well try another.

Plus, old gods don't seem to care about the number of wives, anyway.

On 10. 2. 2018 at 6:17 PM, Shadow of Asshai said:

The Targaryens dropped that custom after Maegor the Cruel. King Jaehaerys had assured the High Septon the Targaryens would only have a wife and would only marry again when the spouse died. It was part of the pact between the Iron Throne and the Faith of the Seven, it helped to end the Faith Militant Uprising.

The quote, please. To my best memory, none exists.

ETA: As GRRM said, 

Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent. However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object.

 In other words, nothing here suggest the existence of an official arrangement that would make polygamy impossible, but a lot of people would be grumbling.

[Lord Varys]

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So if R+L=J Jon would still be a bastard right? This has always been a little confusing for me 

From the point of view of the current High Septon most likely, yes. The Faith of the Andals is a power in its own right again, challenging and rivaling the power of the kings. If the High Septon declared that Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna was invalid because the man had only one legal wife - Princess Elia Martell of Dorne - then the majority of the people of Westeros would likely follow his lead.

The same would also be true if said High Septon simply declared the Seven had revealed to him that Jon Snow was not, in fact, Rhaegar's son at all, regardless what some bog devil or wetnurse claimed. We cannot underestimate the authority the Voice of the Seven on Earth actually has - especially with the smallfolk. 

But even back during the reign of Aerys II it would be a tough call. We have it from George (via Ran) that the Faith was effectively controlled by the king after Maegor and Jaehaerys I broke their resistance - and we see how thoroughly Maegor breaks them in TSotD (this in effectively confirmed by the fact that Prince Daemon has to ask his royal brother, King Viserys I, to set aside his wife Rhea Royce - he cannot simply approach the High Septon in this matter). And that means that the whole Lyanna thing would have not even be acknowledged as a valid marriage by the royal family, the court, the Faith, and the lords of the Realm - unless King Aerys II himself supported Rhaegar in the entire Lyanna affair. And that is very unlikely in light of the textual evidence we have on the Rhaegar-Aerys relationship prior to and after Harrenhal.

If it was a secret marriage (in the sense that neither the public nor the court ever learned that it took place) then it would be effectively non-existent. If you never reveal you are married then your children never become part of the royal family, do they?

34 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

In the Faith, perhaps - but the Faith considers incest an abominable sin, too, yet the Targaryen incestous marriages were given a pass. So, if you can get away with one exception, you might as well try another.

Nobody ever said anything about incestuous marriages being invalid. They are just abominable, resulting in the people practicing incest - and the children from such accursed unions - be put down. 

34 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Plus, old gods don't seem to care about the number of wives, anyway.

Some First Men kings had multiple wives in very ancient days. But there is no Stark precedent - neither king nor prince nor lord - for polygamy. But even if they did - the Faith is the majority religion. They control and enforce the viable social behavior in the Seven Kingdoms, not the old gods. There is a reason why the Targaryens (professed to) follow the Seven and not the old gods. Just as there is a reason why Prince Aegon is taught the doctrines of the Faith.

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

but the Faith considers incest an abominable sin, too, yet the Targaryen incestous marriages were given a pass. So, if you can get away with one exception, you might as well try another.

Meh, to a degree of course. First cousins and Uncles are totally up for grabs: anything closer than that is a no no.

[Ygrain]

6 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Meh, to a degree of course. First cousins and Uncles are totally up for grabs: anything closer than that is a no no.

Yeah, it depends on the definition of what constitutes an incest - Westeros seems much more relaxed about it than our medieval times where you needed a dispensation from the Pope.

But brother and sister was definitely a no no, yet no-one batted a lash over the marriage of Aerys and Rhaella because after three hundred years, people got used to the fact that the Targs did things differently.

[DanaKz]

Of course polygamy is a sin in Faith of Seven.

Remember the rite? "I do solemnly proclaim N and M to be man and wife, one flesh, one heart, one soul, now and forever, and cursed be the one who comes between them"

This formula gives no back door for second wife - every second wife will be cursed by gods.

[AlaskanSandman]

On 2/10/2018 at 1:20 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So if R+L=J Jon would still be a bastard right? This has always been a little confusing for me 

Yes, if that theory is even true in the books, then Jon is a bastard. Also, there is absolutely no reason for the faith to annul Rhaegar's marriage to Elia that was consummated and all, unless Rhaegar could prove infidelity and or a bastard.

Who ever Jon's parents are though, he is not like to sit the Iron Throne and would make a crap king. He's probably get stabbed by his own King's Guard. Also he knows absolutely nothing about Southern ways, customs, agriculture, economy, Houses, or anything beyond what a book might tell him. Though, Jon's not big on books so fat chance he knows anything. 

If the throne even still exist by the end, it'll be some one else to sit upon it, and not likely a woman given the faiths feelings on that. Unless Dorne can get Cersei to go for it, but the Faith would still oppose it. So no. 

I kind of suspect Edric Storm will take the throne with Edric Dayne as his L.C. of the K.G. and Devan Seaworth as his Hand or Maester. All three are also born in 287 which is 13 years before 300Ac. Something i think is a clue among other 13 tid bits.

[The Commentator]

On 2/10/2018 at 11:36 AM, Vaedys Targaryen said:

This is just a real quick question: Is polygamy legal in the Faith? We know that the Faith encourages marriages between a man and a woman, but does it specifically say that you absolutely can't be married to multiple people?

Polygamy is not legal.  There are close ties between religion and the state and that may partly explain the reasons.  There are practical reasons why it is illegal and that is to prevent squabbles over inheritance.  It gives security to the first wife and her children.  It makes marriage alliances stronger when you know the potential husband cannot simply set her aside in favor of a younger woman later on.  Any children produced outside of the first and only legal marriage will be bastards. 

[AlaskanSandman]

7 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Polygamy is not legal.  There are close ties between religion and the state and that may partly explain the reasons.  There are practical reasons why it is illegal and that is to prevent squabbles over inheritance.  It gives security to the first wife and her children.  It makes marriage alliances stronger when you know the potential husband cannot simply set her aside in favor of a younger woman later on.  Any children produced outside of the first and only legal marriage will be bastards. 

And yet this is how Huzhor Amai founded the Sarnori. Sometimes, multiple wives does establish better alliances. Long as the husband is sensible about things, or strong enough to control despite. 

Garth the Green had multiple wives. 

If the wives are of different cultures then it can. Alexander had multiple wives and it wasn't a problem till his death. Had he had an heir of age that was strong enough, he could have held it all together and kept Alexanders generals in check. Especially if it was with his first wife. 

Edit- It does effectively limit the amount one can spread his seed and family. May be something the Faith uses to keep the Targs and people in check.