Who will tell Daenerys the Truth, and more importantly, what effect will it have?

[Bernie Mac]

5 hours ago, bent branch said:

I wonder why this idea is always constructed this way within the fandom. It can be equally said that if Renly or Robb had been willing to ally with Stannis they would have won. Additionally, Stannis is the one still alive. I guess it is just perverse human nature to say the last one left standing was the one who made the worst decision.

I imagine it is because both Robb and Renly had far more support than Stannis, so you would expect the weaker party to compromise and join the stronger party. That is just me though, other people may have different reasons for stating it like that. 

[kissdbyfire]

Funniest stuff I've read here in a while. Loving it!

To the OP: Yes, I believe Dany will learn the whole ugly truth, especially about Daddy Dearest. How she'll react/deal w/ it is another matter. As someone said a while back, Dany's coin (greatness x madness) is still flipping in the air. I think she won't go the mad route, but I agree w/ whoever said that that it's still too early to tell. 

[Paxter Redwyne]

3 minutes ago, Son of Man said:

Justified in what?  I don't see anyone making that case.  I do see people saying Robert's rebellion was not justified and I will agree with them.  It is fundamentally stupid to rebel to save the lives of Eddard and Robert.  Rickard Stark should have known better.  Anybody can see why the king could not allow his marriage proposals to continue.  No king can allow the balance of power to tip against them or they won't be king for long.  Aerys, like any king, had a right to protect his right to rule and to protect his family. 

The rebellion would be justified (still illegal) if the kingdom was bankrupt, the government was ineffective, and the safety of everyone was at stake.  None of those applied.  Aerys prevented the Starks from forming marriage alliances that would undermine his power.  He used the excuse of Brandon's mad act of threatening his family to draw Rickard out of Winterfell where he could execute him. 

"Hey Boss, have you heard that Rick has became very influential in our corporation?"

"Awww shit, I guess it is time I should fucking murder him and his entire family, heh."

[kissdbyfire]

16 minutes ago, Son of Man said:

No king can allow the balance of power to tip against them or they won't be king for long.  Aerys, like any king, had a right to protect his right to rule and to protect his family

Please, can you clarify something for me? Are you saying Aerys was protecting his right to rule and protecting his family? I mean, are you seriously stating that Aerys' actions and commands etc were justified because he was protecting his crown and his family?

He surrounded himself w/ incompetent brown nosing lickspittles because of his vanity. The second he messed w/ Tywin was the second he lost crown and life, and fucked the Targ dynasty royally. So, there's that to counter the argument that he was "protecting his right to rule" (or whatever). 

Now, it gets even better when we look at how he protected his family... Where shall we start? Hmmmm. Lemme think... oh I know. He was protecting his family when he brutally raped and savaged Rhaella after getting a hard on from seeing people burn alive. 

I'm just not sure whether that was the most protective of his family he ever was... because there's also holding Elia, Rhaenys, and baby Aegon hostages to ensure Dorne's loyalty. Yeah, his own daughter-in-law, and worse, his grandchildren. 

Wow. Super protective and totes justified, I see it now. 

/s

 

 

 

[zandru]

42 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

To the OP: Yes, I believe Dany will learn the whole ugly truth, especially about Daddy Dearest. How she'll react/deal w/ it is another matter. As someone said a while back, Dany's coin (greatness x madness) is still flipping in the air. I think she won't go the mad route, but I agree w/ whoever said that that it's still too early to tell. 

Well, since learning just a little more about Daddy Aerys, Daenerys has been sanity-checking herself with every decision - is this a cuckoo-bananas action, or justified? This further argues that Dany will be looking for warning signs in herself and do what she can to prevent herself from taking crazy actions. This is the sign of a very sane woman, in my non-medically-trained opinion.

26 minutes ago, Son of Man said:

I do see people saying Robert's rebellion was not justified and I will agree with them.  It is fundamentally stupid to rebel to save the lives of Eddard and Robert. 

In retrospect, it sure seems that rising up to overthrow the legitimate (although paranoid and delusional) king, when there was a perfectly excellent, well-loved heir available and trying to ease his father into retiring, was a suboptimal decision. In a sane world, the great lords and prince would have put their heads together and found a way to advance Rhaegar to the Iron Throne, and maybe give Aerys a nice, quiet retirement somewhere, like Dorne.

Of course, this sensible solution was precluded by Robert Baratheon's cock.

[Brannis the Mannis]

35 minutes ago, Son of Man said:

 I do see people saying Robert's rebellion was not justified and I will agree with them.  It is fundamentally stupid to rebel to save the lives of Eddard and Robert.  Rickard Stark should have known better.  Anybody can see why the king could not allow his marriage proposals to continue.  No king can allow the balance of power to tip against them or they won't be king for long.  Aerys, like any king, had a right to protect his right to rule and to protect his family. 

The rebellion would be justified (still illegal) if the kingdom was bankrupt, the government was ineffective, and the safety of everyone was at stake.  None of those applied.  Aerys prevented the Starks from forming marriage alliances that would undermine his power.  He used the excuse of Brandon's mad act of threatening his family to draw Rickard out of Winterfell where he could execute him. 

So he had the right to burn Rickard Stark alive because he made marriage pacts? Something that literally every other lord in Westeros does?

There was zero justification for the death of Rickard. Again, Targ supporters can be so delusional. 

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, zandru said:

Well, since learning just a little more about Daddy Aerys, Daenerys has been sanity-checking herself with every decision - is this a cuckoo-bananas action, or justified? This further argues that Dany will be looking for warning signs in herself and do what she can to prevent herself from taking crazy actions. This is the sign of a very sane woman, in my non-medically-trained opinion.

 

Quote

In retrospect, it sure seems that rising up to overthrow the legitimate (although paranoid and delusional) king, when there was a perfectly excellent, well-loved heir available and trying to ease his father into retiring, was a suboptimal decision. In a sane world, the great lords and prince would have put their heads together and found a way to advance Rhaegar to the Iron Throne, and maybe give Aerys a nice, quiet retirement somewhere, like Dorne.

Mostly agree. I mean, I agree, then you had to go there and use "in a sane world"!

Becase that's part of the beauty of Martin... Westeros is as insane as our own world. A "sane world" is almost a fairy tale idea, if we have humans in the mix. 

Quote

7 minutes ago, zandru said:

Of course, this sensible solution was precluded by Robert Baratheon's cock.

(Can only write in the box here!  )

But here is where I disagree... a lot of good - and not so good - people made quite a few stupid mistakes imo. 

[Brannis the Mannis]

5 minutes ago, zandru said:

In a sane world, the great lords and prince would have put their heads together and found a way to advance Rhaegar to the Iron Throne, and maybe give Aerys a nice, quiet retirement somewhere, like Dorne.

Of course, this sensible solution was precluded by Robert Baratheon's cock.

After what Aerys did? He was lucky to not be burned alive himself. 

No, this so-called "sensible solution" was precluded by Rhaegar being an idiot and kidnapping/eloping Lyanna, the daughter of a Lord Paramount and betrothed to the heir of another.  

[bent branch]

 

5 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

I don't really recall, but I don't think it was that she wasn't paying attention to what Barristan was saying, it was always that something major would come up as he was starting his story so he never got the chance to tell it.  I do find it really interesting that GRRM saw fit to include this a couple times where he teases Dany learning the truth about Robert's Rebellion but doesn't get to actually hear it.  Is is foreshadowing for a major issue?  Will Barristan die before ever seeing Dany again and getting to tell her?

We pretty much haven't heard the Targaryen side of the story. There is more to be revealed.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

I imagine it is because both Robb and Renly had far more support than Stannis, so you would expect the weaker party to compromise and join the stronger party. That is just me though, other people may have different reasons for stating it like that. 

So then Robb should have knelt to Renly? Is that what you are saying? What I'm saying is all three men made basically the same decision (to not kneel to one of the others) and only one of them is still alive. I found out recently that in tests that have been done since the 1960's, 90% of people are illogical. Most people think they are logical. Most are wrong.

28 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

"Hey Boss, have you heard that Rick has became very influential in our corporation?"

"Awww shit, I guess it is time I should fucking murder him and his entire family, heh."

A monarchy is not a corporation.

 

[Nowy Tends]

47 minutes ago, Son of Man said:

  It is fundamentally stupid to rebel to save the lives of Eddard and Robert.  

[…]

  Aerys, like any king, had a right to protect his right to rule and to protect his family. 

Obviously you have no idea how a feudal society works. Aerys didn't have the right to eradicate the Stark family.

I can't believe that such a tyrant can have supporters…

[zandru]

18 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Because that's part of the beauty of Martin... Westeros is as insane as our own world. A "sane world" is almost a fairy tale idea, if we have humans in the mix. 

Sadly, true! At least we've got lots of drama.

15 minutes ago, bent branch said:

We pretty much haven't heard the Targaryen side of the story. There is more to be revealed.

Indeed. George RR has made this point a few times. And he wants to tell it himself (at least the first time), rather than subcontracting it out to the teevie folks, who might kill for the privilege. I suspect we'll feel a little more pity for poor mad Aerys II by the time it's done - and probably more loathing at the same time. Funny how George can do that.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, bent branch said:

So then Robb should have knelt to Renly? Is that what you are saying?

 

Absolutely. Robb's prime motivation was justice for his father, had he sided with Renly he would have achieved that, the North would be in better shape, the Riverlands would be in better shape (and Renly was willing to let him rule both) the Wall would have more allies and Robb, and his new ally Renly, would be in a much stronger position to help. 

The series would be vastly different, but yeah, Robb should have knelt to Renly. 

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Well, since learning just a little more about Daddy Aerys, Daenerys has been sanity-checking herself with every decision - is this a cuckoo-bananas action, or justified? This further argues that Dany will be looking for warning signs in herself and do what she can to prevent herself from taking crazy actions. This is the sign of a very sane woman, in my non-medically-trained opinion.

In retrospect, it sure seems that rising up to overthrow the legitimate (although paranoid and delusional) king, when there was a perfectly excellent, well-loved heir available and trying to ease his father into retiring, was a suboptimal decision. In a sane world, the great lords and prince would have put their heads together and found a way to advance Rhaegar to the Iron Throne, and maybe give Aerys a nice, quiet retirement somewhere, like Dorne.

Of course, this sensible solution was precluded by Robert Baratheon's cock.

In Dorne? Aerys would rather pitch himself off the Wall. Didn't he say that his own granddaughter "smelled Dornish" and refused to embrace her?

[bent branch]

9 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

In Dorne? Aerys would rather pitch himself off the Wall. Didn't he say that his own granddaughter "smelled Dornish" and refused to embrace her?

You are assuming that Aerys thought Dorne smelled bad. Simply saying she smelled Dornish doesn't actually say what he thought of those smells. I know in my imagination Dorne smells wonderful with fragrant plants scenting the warm night air. And Aerys wasn't touching anyone at that point.

[Damsel in Distress]

On 2/12/2018 at 8:35 PM, Pride of Driftmark said:

At the end of ASoS, Daenerys learns the truth about Aerys. The Mad King's reputation was not fabricated. This haunts her throughout ADWD, and she wonders what sort of legacy she's truly inherited (I love this, btw). However, Dany is still blissfully ignorant about the whole story of the War of the Usurper. She still considers Eddard Stark a cold man who rebelled from some sort of psychopathic vengeance. Will someone ever tell her the truth? Will she learn about Rickard and Brandon, about the wildfire plot (this one's unlikely, as only Jaime knows), about Rhaegar and Lyanna (at least the commonly accepted in-universe story), or about the call for Ned and Robert's head?

That's not the major problem, though. The major thing that I am curious about IS WILL SHE CARE? Does Daenerys have empathy enough to not wipe out every Stark, Baratheon, Arryn, Lannister, and Tully (not that there's many of any of them left) when she arrives in Westeros? Will learning the truth about the history of her house and its conflicts matter to her? Is she too focused on her ultimate goal of Fire and Blood to change?

I don't think it's her plan to wipe them out as long as they don't oppose her.  She can forgive as long as they don't block her path to her throne.  That is what conquering is all about.  No different than Aegon.  That is what happens during a take over.  Although Dany will have a much easier time than most because the people are ready for a change.  It has been said and written, the Baratheons and their allies failed to hold together a prosperous kingdom.  They are failures in many respects and they failed the people.  Westeros has never been this low before.  Many folks will be ready for a change in leadership to the extent that they will throw their liege lords to the dragons like the slaves of Volantis are ready to do to their masters as soon as Dany gives the signal.  So far as the people blaming Dany for Aerys.  That is pure nonsense.  The only ones who may try to block Dany from her throne are the Lannisters and the Greyjoys.  The Starks are in no position to block anybody.  If they're smart, they will kneel to Dany and ask for help.  They have nothing to offer Dany but she has a lot to offer them if they behave like good little boys and girls.  The Baratheons and the Tullys are nearly finished, thanks to Petyr Baelish, Lords Walder, and Roose. 

[Paxter Redwyne]

Sure, if you believe that king is above the law, he can execute whoever he want. Little advice tho: it ain't gonna work in the long run.

[Angel Eyes]

14 hours ago, Brannis the Mannis said:

So he had the right to burn Rickard Stark alive because he made marriage pacts? Something that literally every other lord in Westeros does?

There was zero justification for the death of Rickard. Again, Targ supporters can be so delusional. 

And so can D&D.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Dany still does not know about the executions of the heirs and the fire in the throne Room. Ser Barristan gets to the point where he is about to tell her and she cuts him off. I fear he is not long for the world and she will have to learn it from someone else at a later time.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

And so can D&D.

Who?

[Moiraine Sedai]

15 hours ago, Brannis the Mannis said:

So he had the right to burn Rickard Stark alive because he made marriage pacts? Something that literally every other lord in Westeros does?

There was zero justification for the death of Rickard. Again, Targ supporters can be so delusional. 

Not nearly as delusional as the Stark supporters.