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Pride of Driftmark

Who will tell Daenerys the Truth, and more importantly, what effect will it have?

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Thanks for all the discussion! One of my favorite chapters is Daenerys II, ADWD. I physically cringed the first time I read her bad-mouthing Ned, but that's just because he was set up from the beginning as the goodest guy ever who always does the right thing. This is of course disputable, and most of us can agree that the notion of absolute good is just absent in ASOIAF. I love how Daenerys actually has internal conflict-

If they are monsters, so am I.

One possible bittersweet ending is Daenerys as queen with no more aristocracy besides. In that sense, the Rebellion was necessary, as it paved the way for a more just society, there just had to be the "Baratheon Interregnum" before the true revolution. Our flawed heroes like Ned and Robert have a place in history, but only those outside of the universe (us) who are hearing the "Song of Ice and Fire" get the whole, unadulterated truth. 

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On 2/12/2018 at 5:35 PM, Pride of Driftmark said:

That's not the major problem, though. The major thing that I am curious about IS WILL SHE CARE? Does Daenerys have empathy enough to not wipe out every Stark, Baratheon, Arryn, Lannister, and Tully (not that there's many of any of them left) when she arrives in Westeros? Will learning the truth about the history of her house and its conflicts matter to her? Is she too focused on her ultimate goal of Fire and Blood to change?

It's interesting to me that in GRRM's original outline for the three books he had planned, Daenerys was pretty unambiguously a villain. There's a ton there he's obviously changed his mind about, but it's interesting to me that at her conception she was an antagonist.

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1 hour ago, Pride of Driftmark said:

Thanks for all the discussion! One of my favorite chapters is Daenerys II, ADWD. I physically cringed the first time I read her bad-mouthing Ned, but that's just because he was set up from the beginning as the goodest guy ever who always does the right thing. This is of course disputable, and most of us can agree that the notion of absolute good is just absent in ASOIAF. I love how Daenerys actually has internal conflict-

If they are monsters, so am I.

One possible bittersweet ending is Daenerys as queen with no more aristocracy besides. In that sense, the Rebellion was necessary, as it paved the way for a more just society, there just had to be the "Baratheon Interregnum" before the true revolution. Our flawed heroes like Ned and Robert have a place in history, but only those outside of the universe (us) who are hearing the "Song of Ice and Fire" get the whole, unadulterated truth. 

Daenerys is aristocrat, if she wants to dispose of upper class, she should begin with herself. She owes everything to her family name and her lineage.

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There are a number of people that can tell Dany the truth outside of Barristan. 

Jorah is one, but he's too busy being creepy with his obsession with her to say anything. He's a northman, he more than likely knew Rickard and Brandon and what happened to them. Although Ned seems to have fed an entirely different story to his children about what happened to their family.

Tyrion will eventually meet Dany. I'm sure he knows the story of Aerys. He might even give us insight into Tywin's own thoughts about all of this. 

Marwyn is converging toward Meereen. 

Barry is the best option because he has been around 4 generations of them. 

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2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

There are a number of people that can tell Dany the truth outside of Barristan. 

Jorah is one, but he's too busy being creepy with his obsession with her to say anything. He's a northman, he more than likely knew Rickard and Brandon and what happened to them. Although Ned seems to have fed an entirely different story to his children about what happened to their family.

Tyrion will eventually meet Dany. I'm sure he knows the story of Aerys. He might even give us insight into Tywin's own thoughts about all of this. 

Marwyn is converging toward Meereen. 

Barry is the best option because he has been around 4 generations of them. 

Jorah cannot tell Dany "the truth" because he was on the opposing side of Robert's Rebellion. Tyrion cannot tell "the truth" because he was an eight year old who had never been to Kingslanding. Marwyn can tell some of the truth because he is in a position to know some of it. But Barristan is one of the few who can talk to Dany about what was happening inside her father's court. This is something that many people seem to miss, we haven't been told the Targaryen side of the story yet. The people who were actually inside Aerys court and could talk about what was happening there are few and far between. The few who I can think of off the top of my head are Barristan, Pycelle (now dead), Varys, Thoros, Jaime and JonCon. Additionally, what each of these people can tell us about what was going on in court is limited because of either their limited time in Aerys court and/or their lack of being in the inner circle. For instance, Jaime only went to court after Aerys was pretty mad.

Anyhow, most of the people you mentioned can only share the gossip we already know.

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I'm not sure if it will have any impact on her or the story, seeing as nearly all of the leaders of the rebellion are dead. She's not going to stop her ambitions to reclaim the IT just because Ned had good reasons to rebel. I mean, what else is she going to do with her life, go and join the Dosh Khaleen?

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5 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I'm not sure if it will have any impact on her or the story, seeing as nearly all of the leaders of the rebellion are dead. She's not going to stop her ambitions to reclaim the IT just because Ned had good reasons to rebel. I mean, what else is she going to do with her life, go and join the Dosh Khaleen?

I think the question is whether she'll go all F&B on the descendants or listen, understand, and make common cause with them when the time comes, I think it will be the latter, but the whole "dragons plant no trees" (or whatever) leaves other options open as well. 

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Just now, kissdbyfire said:

I think the question is whether she'll go all F&B on the descendants or listen, understand, and make common cause with them when the time comes, I think it will be the latter, but the whole "dragons plant no trees" (or whatever) leaves other options open as well. 

I think the idea that these characters are stubbornly holding grudges with each other is unfounded. Dany wants vengeance/justice on the Usurper and his dogs. I never got the impression that she also wanted to go full Tywin on them. And on the other side, most of Westeros (the younger generation, anyway) barely remembers her, as evidenced by the prologue of AFFC. I imagine there will be some initial reluctance to ally, but that will be because their families fought on opposite sides in the last great war, not because they feel personal hatred towards each other.

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5 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

It's interesting to me that in GRRM's original outline for the three books he had planned, Daenerys was pretty unambiguously a villain. There's a ton there he's obviously changed his mind about, but it's interesting to me that at her conception she was an antagonist.

That's not true.  If you actually want to find antagonists you need only look at Jon Snow who falls in love with Arya and gets jealous when Tyrion gets her preggers.  This is truly wrong because Jon is a man of the watch and a sworn brother.  There can be no doubt he is wrong for this. 

The truth of the matter is this.  Tyrion is an antagonists to the Starks and vice versa per that letter.  All the letters say is Daenerys Targaryen will want to reclaim the seven kingdoms.  Nothing wrong in that.  That doesn't make her an antagonists.  Most people would not begrudge the Starks for wanting to take back the North.  There is no difference whatsoever.  Nobody should begrudge Daenerys from wanting to take back the seven kingdoms. 

 

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23 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I think the idea that these characters are stubbornly holding grudges with each other is unfounded. Dany wants vengeance/justice on the Usurper and his dogs. I never got the impression that she also wanted to go full Tywin on them. And on the other side, most of Westeros (the younger generation, anyway) barely remembers her, as evidenced by the prologue of AFFC. I imagine there will be some initial reluctance to ally, but that will be because their families fought on opposite sides in the last great war, not because they feel personal hatred towards each other.

I agree actually. I was just pointing out the possibility of Dany developing a thirst for revenge, and if the leaders of the Rebellion are dead, their kin will do. But I don't think it will go that way at all.

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On 2018-02-13 at 6:16 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

I don't think Dany will have much of a problem.  Because even the leading families of Robert's rebellion, if they have the brains that God gave an ox, will realize they were better off under Targaryen rule compared to what they have now.  They are simply paying back and suffering for rebelling 15 or so years ago.  Those damned Baratheon, Starks, Arryns, and Tully's thought they could do better than the Targaryens.  They're so wrong and they're receiving their rewards.  They have to be thinking with their feeble minds what a mistake it was to rebel over something so trivial when compared to the damage they caused.

I would not care how the Baratheon, Starks, Arryns, and Tully's feel if I were Dany.  Their opinions do not matter.  The Baratheons, Starks, and Edmure are homeless irrelevants who are now experiencing what Princess Daenerys and King Viserys III had to experience.  I don't want life to get better for the Baratheons, the Starks, the Arryns, and the Tully's.  

Rickard Stark's family lost it all and there is symmetry and fairness because they did the same to the Targaryens.  The Baratheons need to suffer and die off.  Edmure, yes, I'm glad the Freys did what they did to he and Cat.  If there is justice, Hoster, Rickard, Robert, and Jon Arryn  can see all of this from a 60" high definition monitor from the afterlife.  The destruction of their families.  What's happening to them is what they did to the royal family whom they swore loyalty to.  

The small folk are asking the right question.  Are we better off today under Baratheon rule (Tommen is a Baratheon until proven otherwise) or better under the Targaryens?  Daenerys looks like a classic Targaryen, she has regal bearing,  she has charisma,  she knows how to say the the right words,  the dragons are convincing proof of who she is.  The majority of the small folk would openly rebel against their liege lords if they oppose her. 

The Unsullied do not rape or plunder.  They will be welcomed rather than opposed by the common people.   The resistance will be few and hopefully feeble.  It will come from the Lannisters.  There are many who want to take lions down and looking for a strong leader to make it happen.  It will happen.

Haha, you're as mad as Mad Queen Daenerys :D

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4 hours ago, Hoffa said:

Haha, you're as mad as Mad Queen Daenerys :D

 

Nothing mad about it, I'd do the same if I were Dany. Treason and rebellion should never go unpunished and she would set a bad precedent if she let the people who deposed House Targaryen and murdered her family go free. House Baratheon should be stripped of all lands, titles and banished from Westeros for life for the crime of rebelling. House Lannister should be removed from power for the sack of Kings Landing and murder of King Aerys, Princes Elia, Rhaenys and Prince Aegon. Casterly Rock should be given to more loyal subjects of the throne or better yet just keep it within House Targaryen, Dany can give it to one of her children if she does have any.

I will be a little leaner on House Stark because I believe Rickard was killed unjustly but I have no qualms about the execution of hot-head Brandon who stormed into the Red Keep and threatened to murder the heir to the Iron Throne and Prince of Dragonstone with a bunch of his thugs. Jon Arryn is dead else he would've been executed too for treason. House Tyrell should be rewarded with Storms-end because they stayed loyal and true to the Iron Throne till the bitter end. After this is done Dany should make sure her dragons breed so that her future heirs can be secured and ready to bring the fury of the dragon on all who plot rebellion or treason. No one will think of rebelling for another century.

Edited by Yucef Menaerys

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By the time Dany gets the Westeros there is a good chance she will probably be facing off against people who had little to do with Robert's Rebellion. Like (f)Aegon and Euron for an example, then when that's done she'll probably have to deal with the dead next. She won't be facing the foes of her father/brother but new foes who are after her crown.  

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If most of the people who betrayed her father are dead, then Dany will probably decide what to do with their children based on how they respond to her. If they support her they will probably be fine.

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11 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

That's not true.  If you actually want to find antagonists you need only look at Jon Snow who falls in love with Arya and gets jealous when Tyrion gets her preggers.  This is truly wrong because Jon is a man of the watch and a sworn brother.  There can be no doubt he is wrong for this. 

The truth of the matter is this.  Tyrion is an antagonists to the Starks and vice versa per that letter.  All the letters say is Daenerys Targaryen will want to reclaim the seven kingdoms.  Nothing wrong in that.  That doesn't make her an antagonists.  Most people would not begrudge the Starks for wanting to take back the North.  There is no difference whatsoever.  Nobody should begrudge Daenerys from wanting to take back the seven kingdoms. 

 

Protagonists and antagonists depend on whose point of view your watching from.  That being said, it is obvious that Dany has been set up to be the hero in the story.  Millions of former slaves are free.  She rescued the unsullied eunuchs from the slave masters.  She hatched dragons from stone. 

I don't think fans can say this family or that family is the protagonists or the antagonists.  Arya is most definitely not a good person but to her brother Jon she is a protagonists despite being a psycho.  Jon likewise will be seen from Arya's view as a protagonists even though he betrayed the Night's Watch, broke his oaths, and was about to make worse his feud with Ramsay to war.  Bran seems like a protagonists though, despite his unethical treatment of Hodor. 

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26 minutes ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Protagonists and antagonists depend on whose point of view your watching from.  That being said, it is obvious that Dany has been set up to be the hero in the story.  Millions of former slaves are free.  She rescued the unsullied eunuchs from the slave masters.  She hatched dragons from stone. 

There are no heros in this story. Dany burned an old woman alive. She tortured a wineseller's daughters. She closed her eyes to slavery while her precious Sun and Stars was doing it.

Edited by Brannis the Mannis

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4 hours ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

 

Nothing mad about it, I'd do the same if I were Dany. Treason and rebellion should never go unpunished and she would set a bad precedent if she let the people who deposed House Targaryen and murdered her family go free. House Baratheon should be stripped of all lands, titles and banished from Westeros for life for the crime of rebelling. House Lannister should be removed from power for the sack of Kings Landing and murder of King Aerys, Princes Elia, Rhaenys and Prince Aegon. Casterly Rock should be given to more loyal subjects of the throne or better yet just keep it within House Targaryen, Dany can give it to one of her children if she does have any.

I will be a little leaner on House Stark because I believe Rickard was killed unjustly but I have no qualms about the execution of hot-head Brandon who stormed into the Red Keep and threatened to murder the heir to the Iron Throne and Prince of Dragonstone with a bunch of his thugs. Jon Arryn is dead else he would've been executed too for treason. House Tyrell should be rewarded with Storms-end because they stayed loyal and true to the Iron Throne till the bitter end. After this is done Dany should make sure her dragons breed so that her future heirs can be secured and ready to bring the fury of the dragon on all who plot rebellion or treason. No one will think of rebelling for another century.

Haha more delusion. 

How about this instead; Aerys should have burned himself alive and Rhaegar should have saved Robert the trouble and smashed his own head in. They were part of a murderous, tyrannical regime after all

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On 12/02/2018 at 10:03 PM, Pride of Driftmark said:

Good point, and absolutely Daenerys shouldn't be held responsible. I guess I went a little overboard with the wiping out, but the problem is that the survivors of the Rebellion will hold her responsible. They won't just welcome her back. How will she respond and prove she can be trusted? (PS, thanks for reminding me about Theon Stark, a great example of "the good guys" bad history)

Theon Stark wasn't a bad guy at all, he was a great king who defended the North from NUMEROUS threats including Andal invasion, Ironborn invasion, and he led successful attacks on Andalos and conquered the three sisters. Sure his reign was filled with war and death but Theon himself started no wars just defended his land from foreign invaders. 

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7 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

You're as crazy as that lunatic former Lord Commander Jon Snow.  :)

Praise Bowen Marsh!

 

It's funny how you conclude, with no evidence what so ever, that because I said "mad queen dany" I must be a Jon loyalist. 

That's not he case. I don't really hate anyone in the series. Everyone has their own arc and I love how the books unveil their destinies.

Dany is one of my favorite characters and I love her chapters. She can be the most caring and loving person ever and i kinda support her for the throne. But she has this other side where she is cruel and unforgiving. When she's calm and collected she is a great Queen (imo) but the slightest bump and she'll throw a fit and become a very dangerous person. Her dual personality should be a concern. I hope i'm wrong.

I agree about Bowen Marsh. That dude is awesome :D

Oh, i forgot,  i do hate someone. I hate that coward and spineless Jorah Mormont. Grrrrr

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