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Why do book readers hate R+L=J?

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9 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

I think this is a bit out there. If Jon is to pass of as close in age to Robb, he would have had to been conceived after Harrenhal (because Cat buys this idea that they fairly are close in age, even after seeing Jon as a baby)

In theory if Ned and Ashara conceived Jon at Harrenhal, Ned returns to the vale, then to White Harbor to Winterfell and down to Riverrun to Marry and impregnate Cat on the same day her and brandon were supposed to be wed. Seemly no more than one or two months would have passed.  Brandon was on his way to Riverrun to marry Cat after Harrenhal so it was coming up on the date pretty quick after the Tourney. Jon and Rob would only be separated by only a few months which is pretty accurate, we are never told who is older.     

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9 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

It also doesn't make sense that Ned would take Ashara's child. Ned would have to go to Starfall to retrieve said child (and if Ashara doesn't want to give it up, who's going to take it), which would be fairly cruel if she wants to keep it

1. Ned wouldn't know about Jon until he got to Starfall to return Dawn to the Daynes, so he was already going to Starfall and it wasn't for a Baby. I suppose that if Jon is R+L then Ned could of gone to Starfall to get a Wet Nurse, but going that far south with a Baby just to get a Wet nurse seems unlikely. If Jon was found at the Tower of Joy, Ned probably wouldn't have taken the time to bring the tower down, and then go to Starfall to return the Sword, he probably would have just had Howland Reed do it. 

2. Its fairly common in this world for Highborn Bastard to be Fostered away from their mothers because the mother is Highborn and could sit be married and no man want to raise some random bastard. Edric Storm is sent to Storm's End, all of Walder Frey's bastards seem to be with him rather than with their mothers, All of the Targaryen Great Bastards were raised a court even after their mothers were replaced or removed.

3. Ashara even without her being a maiden would still fetch a lot of marriage interest, as long as she wasn't bring the bastard along with her. Her family may have very well forced her to give the child to Ned, and Ned doing the honorable thing didn't refuse to take Jon. This could be the reason she threw herself into the sea.  

4. Ashara might not have wanted Jon after learning that the Father had killed her beloved older, hero brother, Sir Arthur Dayne. 

    

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19 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Wait a sec, no such story is written on-page. It is not stated anywhere, not can be surmised, that Wylla is the same person who nursed Jon at Winterfell. We don't know who his wetnurse at Winterfell was. And even if it was Wylla, well, what's there to wonder? She had a baby by a lord who was so kind as to take care of his bastard and she would be against her child's wellbeing if she protested.

Presumably that is the story, because that is what Edric Dayne believes, he is the heir to Starfall. Granted he's very young and might have been lied too, but if they were going to lie why tell him anything? 

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7 hours ago, must needs the rushes said:

To me, it's that R+L=J is what we would expect if the series were written by JK Rowling. GRRM isn't usually big on "secret prince saves the world" tripe.

And here is a common mistake that people make. R+L=J is one thing. What GRRM is going to do with it is something completely different. Those two absolutely shouldn't be conflated - while the former is based on textual clues, Jon's role in the grand finale still remains a mystery, so what people insert here is not what GRRM has written, or will, but their own expectations of the trope.

6 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Where was he usurping Jon?

That was under the theory that Brandon secretly married Ashara and thus Jon is the true heir to Winterfell, which is supposed to be an explanation why Ned doesn't say or why he considers the secret dangerous. I don't think it holds any water, for multiple reasons.

4 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

In theory if Ned and Ashara conceived Jon at Harrenhal, Ned returns to the vale, then to White Harbor to Winterfell and down to Riverrun to Marry and impregnate Cat on the same day her and brandon were supposed to be wed. Seemly no more than one or two months would have passed.  Brandon was on his way to Riverrun to marry Cat after Harrenhal so it was coming up on the date pretty quick after the Tourney. Jon and Rob would only be separated by only a few months which is pretty accurate, we are never told who is older.     

Sorry but the bolded is incorrect. When Cat thinks "when the day came", it doesn't refer to the same date but to the wedding day. In an earlier SSM, GRRM stated that there was about a year between HH and Lyanna's disappearance. The World Book seems to have condensed the time a bit, but still: you have the return of winter, and Rhaegar eventually returning to the Riverlands. Then Brandon goes to Riverrun to duel Littlefinger.  Then Brandon leaves Riverrun on some unspecified errand, perhaps to meet Rickard who was already on the way. Then Brandon goes to KL, Rickard is summoned to KL. The "trial" and the message for Jon Arryn to hand over Robert and Ned. Fighting in the Vale, journey to the North, gathering the banners, marching to the South. Way more time than you assume.

And while we are never told who is actually older, Ned claims Jon to be younger, so he must look the part. If you have one baby only lying and the other already sitting up or attempting to crawl, there is no way the latter could be passed off for younger, unless the former's development was severely hampered.

4 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

 I suppose that if Jon is R+L then Ned could of gone to Starfall to get a Wet Nurse, but going that far south with a Baby just to get a Wet nurse seems unlikely.

Definitely. The wetnurse was either already present (and we know that there must have been at least one other person than Howland, because they found Ned with Lyanna's body), or one had to be found in the nearest village (or at least a goat), or else the baby couldn't survive.

4 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

If Jon was found at the Tower of Joy, Ned probably wouldn't have taken the time to bring the tower down, and then go to Starfall to return the Sword, he probably would have just had Howland Reed do it. 

Why not? If there was a wetnurse and they had enough foor for the three of them, then there was no hurry. Plus, the detour to Starfall was a perfect coverup because Ned couldn't return from the South, where he hadn't been before, and claim that the baby was his. From Starfall, he could e.g. send Howland up North with the baby and himself return to KL to tell Robert about Lyanna, and no-one would know that there was a baby who wasn't supposed to be there.

4 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

2. Its fairly common in this world for Highborn Bastard to be Fostered away from their mothers because the mother is Highborn and could sit be married and no man want to raise some random bastard. Edric Storm is sent to Storm's End, all of Walder Frey's bastards seem to be with him rather than with their mothers, All of the Targaryen Great Bastards were raised a court even after their mothers were replaced or removed.

Yes but it is not stated at what age they are taken from their mothers

4 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

3. Ashara even without her being a maiden would still fetch a lot of marriage interest, as long as she wasn't bring the bastard along with her. Her family may have very well forced her to give the child to Ned, and Ned doing the honorable thing didn't refuse to take Jon. This could be the reason she threw herself into the sea.  

Ami was married off to a hedge knight, and she didn't even get pregnant. Lysa wouldn't have gotten to marry a man of Jon Arryn's standing, had he not needed Hoster's alliance so badly. Ashara would have had to marry far below her status; even in Dorne, highborn maidens are supposed to remain maidenly.

4 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

4. Ashara might not have wanted Jon after learning that the Father had killed her beloved older, hero brother, Sir Arthur Dayne. 

Possible but highly improbable.

3 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

Presumably that is the story, because that is what Edric Dayne believes,

Nope. He never states where it was that Wylla nursed Jon. It would suffice if she came to Starfall along with Ned, nursing Jon (or was at Starfall with Jon prior Ned's arrival, as one theory has it). Ned could have found another wetnurse for the journey and for the stay at Winterfell (it would even be safer if he did, because the new wetnurse would have no idea where the baby came from and what she didn't know, she couldn't spill)

3 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

he is the heir to Starfall. Granted he's very young and might have been lied too, but if they were going to lie why tell him anything? 

If Wylla came to Starfall with Jon, then it would be common knowledge among the people of Starfall and as such would be passed on to Edric, without anyone knowing it was a lie.

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To original post = We don't. Based purely on my friends and people I interact with (not a scientific survey by any means, but still a useful way to judge people's general thoughts in absence of anything else) most book readers believe r+l=j. I certainly am a subscriber. 

Edited by Lord of Raventree Hall

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13 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I think Robert and Lyanna are Jon's parents.

Based on what?  If Robert is Jon's father why is Ned raising him rather than handing him over to his father?

And you think this fits the story better than R+L=J.

Absolutely classic example of someone not liking the obvious (and it's not obvious, it's the best) answer, looking for another answer and having to settle for one that has gaping holes in it.

13 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

1.A person has to already believe the theory for the clues to make sense.

2. The theory IS the foundation  not the clues instead of the clues being the foundation of the theory.

I believe this is what you are doing, there in fact being no clues in story to point to point to Robert being Jon's father.  Once you have decided you want the father to be Robert you then have to scour the text for whatever passages you can somehow use in support of this argument.  It's backwards.  Following the clues in the text - and not everyone pieces them together - leads to the best explanation for all the odd things around Jon, the ToJ and Ned's behaviour being Rhaegar +L=J.

13 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

E.g. What you posted as clues:

1.You assume that the KGs being at the tower is somehow and HAS to be relevant and important to Jon.So to RLJ it is a clue and if its  not  answered it makes any theory invalid.

a. Could the KG being at the tower be nothing else but being there for Jon?That doesn't tell me who his parents are.

Well, you are half right and all wrong.  In total isolation 3 KG being present at the ToJ does not tell us who Jon's parents are so I'll agree with that.  But as there has not yet been a single plausible explanation given for why three of the KG were prepared to remain guarding a tower in the middle of nowhere instead of trying to reach Viserys and the pregnant Rhaella who they should have been protecting, and were instead prepared to fight to the death to stop Ned from recovering who was in that tower, it kind of follows that there was someone important in that tower who the KG considered they had a duty to protect more than Viserys.

You have to then connect that with Lyanna being inside the tower, forcing a promise from Ned, dying in a bloody bed, i.e. due to childirth / post-natal illness, while clutching blue rose petals that Rhaegar is known to have given her when he crowned her QoLaB, not thinking badly of Rhaegar the guy who supposedly kidnapped and raped his sister, Ned the paragon of honour suddenly siring a bastard who he raises at WF agaisnt all the customs of how acknowledged bastards of great lords are raised, being singularly touchy about Jon's mother and refusing to talk about her at all hurting both Catelyn and Jon in the process, and yet when in the black cells and thinking of his children but not thinking of Jon to piece together that R+L=J.

This is the very opposite of backwards.  It's piecing the clues together and coming up with a coherent and consistent explanation for all of it rather than just throwing out an alternative idea that has no such clues in the text but strikes you as more convoluted or, paradoxically, less well supported, and hence more likely to be true.

Does your theory for Robert have similar tells and clues in story?  If you think it can support Robert as father what does it do to all these clues from Ned, does it make them all a giant trick from the author?

13 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

E.g. What you posted as clues:

1.You assume that the KGs being at the tower is somehow and HAS to be relevant and important to Jon.So to RLJ it is a clue and if its  not  answered it makes any theory invalid.

a. Could the KG being at the tower be nothing else but being there for Jon?That doesn't tell me who his parents are.

2.You are assuming that Wylla having nursed Jon can ONLY mean that it has something to do with RLJ.

a.So what if Wylla nursed Jon? He needed a wet nurse.What does that have to do with who are his parents?What does it have to do with RLJ?

3.You are assuming that Ned being honorable or not and bringing home a bastard can only mean its relevant to RLJ.

a.So Ned being honorable and bringing home a bastard could only mean its Rhaegar's?No it doesn't.

4.You are assuming Ned not telling Jon or Cat can ONLY mean he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son.

a. Again why is this important and can its importance if any only mean Lyanna and Rhaegar are Jon's parent? No it doesn't 

5.Ned never tells Robert Wylla is Jon's mother.Robert asks Ned about the girl he had a moment with and Robert assumed she was Jon's mother. Think of this.If Robert thinks Ned had a one time moment with a girl,and he had a bastard isn't it logical to Robert that the one time fling resulted in Jon?He just let Robert believe his momentary lapse resulted in Jon.

No single clue or piece of evidence proves or even directly suggests that R+L=J.  If you assess every clue in complete isolation and refuse to draw any conenctions then you essentially destroy logical and deductive reasoning. You would not be able to build a case a for anything at all with this weird attitude because at the very first step you would say there is nothing we can conclude or even infer.  I'm intrigued as to how you followed this thought process in reaching the conclusion that Robert as Jon's father is a better explanation (and I'm kind of thinking you applied a double standard).

13 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

It is obvious and not obvious depending on who you ask.

Excellent.  We have lift off.  Does GRRM write for a mass audience or only for a few who follow a certain line of reasoning when reading for pleasure?  Is he trying to trick the readership or simply to leave clues and hints they can follow (or miss) to work out aspects of the story ahead of on page reveals?  I mean do you honestly, and I mean honestly, think that the story as written is leading to the reveal that Bobby B was Jon's father?

13 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

1.You have posters who have honestly stated not to have seen it reading wise,and they came on here and went on the RLJ thread and the "clues" they pointed out convinced them.These people still didn't get it ,they were basically told what were clues and that formed a belief. If people are honest and not BSing themeselves they will agree with that statement.

Wow.  This is an extraordinary sweeping statement on other people's behalf.  You are saying anyone who did not decide R+L=J from the books but read about it on the forums doesn't actually have the wit to piece it all together with a little help or to go back and reread and assess it and decide for themselves? 

How about you let people make their own minds up?!

It's like you are trying to deny the strength of this theory by invalidating a lot of the support for it!

What an extraordinary comment :blink:

13 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

2.You have others who because of certain influences of literature saw familiar elements and made a conclusion based on that. I admit i was in that category and totally dismissed the things that sounded a warning bell in my mind.

It seems you took influences from GRRM's earlier works and statements in interviews and made a conclusion based on that.  That's a warning bell to me.  An author doesn't sit down to repeat a story or a pattern because that lacks originality, is repetitive and predictable.  He may reuse themes because they interest him but you should follow the story he's writing not try and use previous stories to ignore or overturn the course the current one is taking.

13 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

3.Then their were those who saw the truth AND the herring running side by side.They were more familiar in some cases with GRRM's other works and so they picked up on the misdirections,unreliable narrators etc a bit quicker.

The truth?  That Robert is Jon's father?  Where in story is this running side by side with the red herring a lot of people don't notice?

People notice Wylla and Ashara because they are mentioned as possible mother for Jon.  These are the red herrings.  That Ned is not even Jon's father but his uncle and that Rhaegar and Lyanna are his parents is not the red herring because it's not established or suggested, you have to work it out.

And you think Rhaegar as Jon's father is a red herring for Robert? OK.  Why not Mance?  There are people who argue that with as little basis.

13 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

4. Then there is GRRM who speaks about wanting to suprise fans,creating a mysteries that his grandmother couldn't figure out and whose wife says in response to this same arguement ( I believe someone from Heresy has this quote) that GRRM doesn't do obvious.

Numero 4 is the crux of the matter.

1.I have to believe based on what GRRM has said, his grandmother would figure RLJ out.

2. I have to believe Paris who says her husband doesn't do obvious.

So I ask you again. How am i using the same old "its to obvious arguement?,"how exactly am i changing my tune now?

Well the question you ask at the bottom of this section is, yet again, explicitly demonstrated by your argumnets directly above it so I have to wonder what on earth you think you are trying to prove here.

13 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Nope,I never said RLJ is the most logical, you are putting words in my mouth with that one.In a nutshell it was lazy reading with regard to that.

Goodness.  You did indeed say "wasn't" not "was".  Mea Culpa.  I suppose if you had said at this point that Robert was the most logical explanation then even a lazy reader like me might have caught on!

 

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16 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I think Robert and Lyanna are Jon's parents.

Robert couldn't be Jon's parent. It's scientifically impossible for Lyanna to have been kidnapped before Brandon was taken and still have a child with Robert that passes off as the same age as Robb. That would be nearly a year's difference.

That is something that we can say definitively. There's also the fact that Lyanna hated Robert/didn't want to marry him.

16 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

As to not having gaps that would contradict the theory ,that has been and is up for debate.IMO,there are several aspects of this theory that just don't stand up.What i'm about to say and point out is one of the major problems with RLJ IMO.

1.A person has to already believe the theory for the clues to make sense.

2. The theory IS the foundation  not the clues instead of the clues being the foundation of the theory.

Not really. People come to this conclusion based on one or more of these seemingly unrelated clues, which- by themselves- are meaningless. But when you take them at face value, based upon one another, they paint a fairly specific picture.

16 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

1.You assume that the KGs being at the tower is somehow and HAS to be relevant and important to Jon.So to RLJ it is a clue and if its  not  answered it makes any theory invalid.

a. Could the KG being at the tower be nothing else but being there for Jon?That doesn't tell me who his parents are.

2.You are assuming that Wylla having nursed Jon can ONLY mean that it has something to do with RLJ.

a.So what if Wylla nursed Jon? He needed a wet nurse.What does that have to do with who are his parents?What does it have to do with RLJ?

3.You are assuming that Ned being honorable or not and bringing home a bastard can only mean its relevant to RLJ.

a.So Ned being honorable and bringing home a bastard could only mean its Rhaegar's?No it doesn't.

4.You are assuming Ned not telling Jon or Cat can ONLY mean he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son.

a. Again why is this important and can its importance if any only mean Lyanna and Rhaegar are Jon's parent? No it doesn't 

5.Ned never tells Robert Wylla is Jon's mother.Robert asks Ned about the girl he had a moment with and Robert assumed she was Jon's mother. Think of this.If Robert thinks Ned had a one time moment with a girl,and he had a bastard isn't it logical to Robert that the one time fling resulted in Jon?He just let Robert believe his momentary lapse resulted in Jon.

I can go on ,and on with this.In the end it comes to the same thing. Most of the elements of RLJ relies on having a preconcieved idea about what the clues are and or how they can be fityes to the theory.

  1. No. I'm using it as further evidence to bolster my point. The Kingsguard being at the Tower of Joy to keep one girl hostage is odd, but stranger things have happened in the series. But if you take the theory of R+L=J into account. It makes more sense. I'm not making an assumption about anything; I'm saying that it would make more sense for Ser Arthur Dayne- the man who allowed his opponent to get a new sword in the middle of a duel to the death- would be protecting a member of the Royal family. Not an assumption, but a inference based on additional textual information.
  2. No. I'm stating that Wylla being Jon's nurse would- in the most logical situation- mean that Jon was in Dorne at some point, or was picked up on the way to Starfall, given that it is Wylla's home/eventual destination (it is never made clear if she was there before Ned arrived, or if he picked her up on the way, or if she arrived later (which would be the oddest situation)). It would mean that, if Ned Dayne is right, Wylla would have logically nursed him between King's Landing and Starfall. Where ios the Tower of Joy?
  3. No. I'm making the statement that everyone- including the man he grew up with, who he considers a brother- thinks this is out of character for him. I am noting that it would be difficult for a woman- if Wylla was in Dorne, where she eventually served as Ned Dayne's wet-nurse- to have had a relationship with Ned, who wasn't in Dorne during the war, and go back to Dorne (I am making the assumption that Jon was born in Dorne, based on  Wylla's location at the moment, Ned's visiting Starfall at the time, and Jon being nursed by Wylla).
  4. No. I'm saying that it's suspicious that Ned never told Catelyn or Jon- a motherless child- who his mother was, but had no problem telling Robert who she was (though he wouldn't say much more). It's odd- especially if there's nothing to hide. If he told Jon, he'd probably go to Dorne- where they are more accepting of bastards- and find his mother. If R+L=J, this makes far more sense, as Ned wouldn't be able to tell the truth about her, but he clearly has a problem with lying so blatantly. It's his defining feature and his fatal flaw.
  5. Ned never says: The mother of Jon Snow was Wylla. But he does confirm when Robert asks him.
Quote

“You were never the boy you were,” Robert grumbled. “More’s the pity. And yet there was that one time . . . what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was . . . Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard’s mother?”
“Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy, “and I would sooner not speak of her.”
“Wylla. Yes.” The king grinned. “She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like . . . ”
Ned’s mouth tightened in anger. “Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men.”

So, just to recap:

  • Ned certainly confirms that Wylla is Jon's mother. Whether it's a misdirect or a real answer, he answers "Wylla" when Robert asks who Jon's mother is (unless he has other bastards)
  • He also doesn't tell Catelyn or Jon. He tells Robert because he is his king and because Robert was never going to let it go.
17 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Here's the thing though.One doesn't need to be a Targ to control a dragon.One only need  have the blood of a Targ/Old Valyria but not the name.

E.g.Why else would Mel assume Stannis has a dragon to wake,and why else would Aemon first hope stannis was TPTWP.

"He has the blood,Egg's little girl."

Who was Robert,Stannis and Renly's grandmother.She was a Targ.

Dany has bonded to the dragon who called out to her with Dragonsong, and bathe her in fire in her dream and she was not consumed- Drogon

The other two are up for grabs from anyone who can do the same or bind a dragon through sorcery.All she did was wake them.They did not call to her and she did not answer them.

I never said you needed to be a Targaryen. He could be a dragonseed, but he'd still have an easier time controlling the dragons, given his (supposed) dragon blood and his latent skinchanging ability.

Drogon does whatever the eff he wants, but Ghost, Greywind, Lady; all of them are obedient to their masters. This would be useful for a dragon rider/dragonlord.

 

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/*bringing popcorn*/

Here you have the tenets of wolfmaid's theory, guys. Have fun. 

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I wonder why nobody (or am I wrong?) has yet proposed J + J = J.

Which should read: Jon Snow's father is Jon, and Jon Snow's mother is also Jon.

What? First, there are readers that insist that ASoIAF is a sci-fi story, because GRRM has written sci-fi stories before. Second, there's the short story by Robert A. Heinlein, based on this very premise (undoubtedly conceived during a night of heavy drinking in company of some mathematician, who at some point asked "Heyyia, what would be the mimi... nimi... minimal graph totally fucked up?", and Heinlein took that as a challenge). So if it was done once, it can be done again.

I feel that my evidence is solid.

(There's also a film based on the story. If you've seen it, don't mention its name, because the above is a huge spoiler).

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15 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

In theory if Ned and Ashara conceived Jon at Harrenhal, Ned returns to the vale, then to White Harbor to Winterfell and down to Riverrun to Marry and impregnate Cat on the same day her and brandon were supposed to be wed. Seemly no more than one or two months would have passed.  Brandon was on his way to Riverrun to marry Cat after Harrenhal so it was coming up on the date pretty quick after the Tourney. Jon and Rob would only be separated by only a few months which is pretty accurate, we are never told who is older.     

I don't see that as logical. Remember how long it took Robb to assemble some of the banners. We would have to operate under the assumption that it took nearly as long for Ned.

There's also the fact that Ned wouldn't have gone until after Brandon and Rickard were murdered. Brandon would have to realize that Lyanna was missing, leave Riverrun, which might take a few weeks, Rickard would have to come for Brandon (he is most likely in Winterfell at this time. I don't see him allowing Brandon to go and challenge Rhaegar if he was with him, and Aerys couldn't have reached him if he was on the road or in some random lord's castle). If he's moving quickly, that's still two weeks to a month (Ned's party made it with Robert in about two/Cat traveled by land and sea and made it days before him, so two weeks to a month is generous). We're at more two months now

Then there is the amount of time it would take to get to the North from the Vale (after the near week it would take for the raven to get there (didn't do that for the Raven to Winterfell, but that would take about a week)). We'll assume- for the sake of expedience- that the thought of handing them over never crossed Jon's mind, so let's say they left immediately and Ned could travel out of the Eyrie; Ned still took a detour to Sweet Sister, according to Lord Godric Borrell (which would have taken nearly, if not more than a week) then- assuming Godric let him go immediately- it would take him another week to reach the North.

Then he has to gather banners and march south. If the banners were gathered beforehand (which I doubt they were), he would have just needed to march south. Depending on the size and composition of the army, it could take anywhere between weeks and months. If there were more foot, like Robb's army, they would take months- even with a forced march (let's remember the size of the Kingsroad in the Neck and that the North hasn't have strength at sea in centuries).

Even if everyone is moving at optimal speeds, there's no way that Jon would be less than four/five months older than Robb, which is different from the books interpretation of their ages.

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16 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

1. Ned wouldn't know about Jon until he got to Starfall to return Dawn to the Daynes, so he was already going to Starfall and it wasn't for a Baby. I suppose that if Jon is R+L then Ned could of gone to Starfall to get a Wet Nurse, but going that far south with a Baby just to get a Wet nurse seems unlikely. If Jon was found at the Tower of Joy, Ned probably wouldn't have taken the time to bring the tower down, and then go to Starfall to return the Sword, he probably would have just had Howland Reed do it. 

2. Its fairly common in this world for Highborn Bastard to be Fostered away from their mothers because the mother is Highborn and could sit be married and no man want to raise some random bastard. Edric Storm is sent to Storm's End, all of Walder Frey's bastards seem to be with him rather than with their mothers, All of the Targaryen Great Bastards were raised a court even after their mothers were replaced or removed.

3. Ashara even without her being a maiden would still fetch a lot of marriage interest, as long as she wasn't bring the bastard along with her. Her family may have very well forced her to give the child to Ned, and Ned doing the honorable thing didn't refuse to take Jon. This could be the reason she threw herself into the sea.  

4. Ashara might not have wanted Jon after learning that the Father had killed her beloved older, hero brother, Sir Arthur Dayne. 

    

  1. You say that, but it's my belief that Wylla was either picked up between the Tower of Joy and Starfall, or she might be a Targaryen loyalist. It's never stated that she started out at Starfall, only that she nursed Jon and Edric, and is still living in Starfall (to Edric's knowledge). It would have been prudent for them to have a wet nurse with them.
  2. Depending on their birth, they might be kept by their father. We don't know enough about Walder Frey's bastards to determine whether they would be better off with him or with their mothers (though W. Rivers' mother is dead). Not all of the Great Bastards, some were removed from court with their mothers. Catelyn seems to think that it's rare. And that's if the child was acknowledged as his. The point I was making is, it would be more cruel than we have seen him capable of to take Ashara's child from her, nearly as bead for Jon.
  3. What are you basing this off of. Being a maiden seems to be a prerequisite for making a good match. The only example I can think of is Jon Arryn, who was old and had lost all his heirs. How would Ashara, without her virginity, be such a catch.
  4. That's a fair point.

All of this is pointless, given the mental gymnastics needed to make Ashara Dayne his mother- with Brandon or Ned.

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2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

/*bringing popcorn*/

Here you have the tenets of wolfmaid's theory, guys. Have fun. 

I swear she/he's (never know) making a lot of nothing into a whole lot of something.

Most of this information is unrated to anything that has to do with Jon and Robert, and some of it is deliberately misleading.

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36 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Based on what?  If Robert is Jon's father why is Ned raising him rather than handing him over to his father?

And you think this fits the story better than R+L=J.

Absolutely classic example of someone not liking the obvious (and it's not obvious, it's the best) answer, looking for another answer and having to settle for one that has gaping holes in it.

I will gladly answer your question, but i will also like to point out your attitude expressed in the bolded is exactly one of the problems on this site. You have no idea what i'm going to say, yet you already resigned in your mind that my reason is NOT liking the obvious so i'm settling for something with gaping holes? Are you serious right now? This is the unwarranted, self inflated RLJ egotism expressed by many of its proponents right there. Take that how you wish.Back to your question.

"Based on" you ask- What I believe are the clues, its as simple as that.

Why didn't Ned give Robert to raise Jon?   Well to be honest if i had the same info as Ned did at the time; i wouldn't give Robert  Jon to raise. Back on track now.

Ned didn't give Jon to Robert because of the following:

"
Quote

 

The look Ned gave her was anguished. 1."You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard's name … you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned."
Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband's eyes. "They say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself."2. And none of them has ever been seen at court!" Ned blazed. "The Lannister woman has seen to that.

 

 
 
1.It important to understand that Ned's fears reflect a societal and religious view of bastards.This is what Ned believes in totality be he right or wrong this is his belief.
 
 "If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? "Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert's bastards?"(Ned, agot).
 

"The old High Septon told my father that king's laws are one thing, and the laws of the gods another. Trueborn children are made in a marriage bed and blessed by the Father and the Mother, but bastards are born of lust and weakness, he said. King Aegon decreed that his bastards were not bastards, but he could not change their nature. The High Septon said all bastards are born to betrayal”---Egg to Dunk.

Bastard children were born from lust and lies, men said; their nature was wanton and treacherous. Once Jon had meant to prove them wrong, to show his lord father he could as good a true son as Robb Stark.” ---Jon Snow.

"Cersei could not have been pleased by her lord husband's by-blows, yet in the end it mattered little whether the king had one bastard or a hundred. Law and custom gave the baseborn few rights. Gendry, the girl in the Vale, the boy at Storm's End, none of them could threaten Robert's trueborn children …(Eddard VII AGOT).

Sum:  As a bastard which Jon is ,from Ned's point  understanding of society,religion and the law Jon would be shunned at court.He knew what the stain of bastardry meant and it didn't matter if Robert would have given him a name.It just would have been an unhappy place for Jon.
 
2.We also know from Ned's conversation with Cat that he has been observing over the years if Robert's bastards are welcomed at court. He knows they are not and fingers Cersie as the reason they aren't welcomed at court.Even if Ned prior to going to KL didn't know that Cersie was capable of killing Robert's children he had a good enough second reason for Jon not to know.
 
And as fate would have it we have now come to a place now where it is Robert's children that are a threat to Cersie.Jon being Rhaegar's son was never relevant to his saftey.That is an assumption.Jon is now a threat should his parentage be revealed....From Cersie and with good reason it's already being set up that way.
 
 
a.“Catelyn Tully was a mouse, or she would have smothered this Jon Snow in his cradle. Instead, she's left the filthy task to me (AFFC Cersie).”
 
b.“There was another bastard, a boy (Gendry), older. I took steps to see him removed from harm's way...but I confess, I never dreamed the babe would be at risk. A base born girl, less than a year old, with a whore for a mother, what threat could she pose?” "She was Robert’s that was enough for Cersei it would seem (Tyrion&Varys ACOK).
 
c.“Once, after that sorry business with the cat, he (Robert) had made some noises about bringing some baseborn daughter of his to court. “Do as you please," she'd told him, "but you may find that the city is not a healthy place for a growing girl.”(AFFC,Cersie).
 
This question seems very important for you to have answer,so i am specifically answering your question.As a point there is nothing but the assumption that Ned didn't tell Robert because he would kill Jon.I really need you all to think about how utterly ridiculous that is.RLJ created a question it thinks was important and needed to be answered;then answered it.
I mean Jeez.I mean seriously RLJ created a Boogey man in Jon in order to make Jon a Targ whereby robert could be a threat.:unsure:
 
6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I believe this is what you are doing, there in fact being no clues in story to point to point to Robert being Jon's father.  Once you have decided you want the father to be Robert you then have to scour the text for whatever passages you can somehow use in support of this argument.  It's backwards.  Following the clues in the text - and not everyone pieces them together - leads to the best explanation for all the odd things around Jon, the ToJ and Ned's behaviour being Rhaegar +L=J.

Dude:rolleyes: really? Don't assume stuff you don't know because you haven't asked.I have made it very clear as a character i don't like Robert. I've admitted that bias frequently, but evidence is evidence. You then now make potash of yourself by claiming there is no evidence that Robert is Jon's father which is your opinion. When its all said and done GRRM will reveal who picked up true clues vs red herrings.

6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

No single clue or piece of evidence proves or even directly suggests that R+L=J.  If you assess every clue in complete isolation and refuse to draw any conenctions then you essentially destroy logical and deductive reasoning. You would not be able to build a case a for anything at all with this weird attitude because at the very first step you would say there is nothing we can conclude or even infer.  I'm intrigued as to how you followed this thought process in reaching the conclusion that Robert as Jon's father is a better explanation (and I'm kind of thinking you applied a double standard).

 I wish i had a face palm emoji.... Dude there was no process needed,no extensive thought to ponder by me to shout RLJ.Just recognizing what was a familiar tale.That's why to me if this is the solution it is was obvious. That pattern was very easy to identify and what jumped out at me was the condensed form i posted.That pattern so blatant on "the cover" imo suggest a herring.You really don't listen or you do and just don't accept reality. I re-read with no expectation except to tell a few people i was still arriving at RLJ.

 

6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Excellent.  We have lift off.  Does GRRM write for a mass audience or only for a few who follow a certain line of reasoning when reading for pleasure?  Is he trying to trick the readership or simply to leave clues and hints they can follow (or miss) to work out aspects of the story ahead of on page reveals?  I mean do you honestly, and I mean honestly, think that the story as written is leading to the reveal that Bobby B was Jon's father?

He is telling and writing his story.What did i say? We are along for the ride.Wanting to construct a really good mystery that would stump even your Nana and your wife is not a trick.

Yes, i honestly think the story will have a reveal that Jon is Robert's and Lyanna. This ain't the most important thing in the story dude,there are bigger things going on.I'm not trying or have a desire to convince you or anyone i am just stating a theory i believe makes more sense. Only GRRM is going to answer that and what you or I believe or don't believe isn't going to stop him telling his story.

6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Wow.  This is an extraordinary sweeping statement on other people's behalf.  You are saying anyone who did not decide R+L=J from the books but read about it on the forums doesn't actually have the wit to piece it all together with a little help or to go back and reread and assess it and decide for themselves? 

How about you let people make their own minds up?!

It's like you are trying to deny the strength of this theory by invalidating a lot of the support for it!

What an extraordinary comment :blink:

Here what, why don't you go on the several sites dedicated to " When posters knew RLJ" or the like and see how many people got it based on coming to the RLJ thread.Its probably going to be worse thanks to the "mummer's show."

Again i really wish my face palm theory, excuse me if you think the strength of this theory is dependant on how many people believe it; I'll let you in on a secret. The earth really is flat....ShhhB)

 

6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

It seems you took influences from GRRM's earlier works and statements in interviews and made a conclusion based on that.  That's a warning bell to me.  An author doesn't sit down to repeat a story or a pattern because that lacks originality, is repetitive and predictable.  He may reuse themes because they interest him but you should follow the story he's writing not try and use previous stories to ignore or overturn the course the current one is taking.

Yeah your right, he just repeats several other patterns starting from the Bible,The Odyssy,Anansi stories,Grimm Fairy tales,Disney and  television.

Its insight into how an author writes you would do well to keep that in mind.

Not ignoring the story,just ignoring the red dragon herring.

6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

The truth?  That Robert is Jon's father?  Where in story is this running side by side with the red herring a lot of people don't notice?

People notice Wylla and Ashara because they are mentioned as possible mother for Jon.  These are the red herrings.  That Ned is not even Jon's father but his uncle and that Rhaegar and Lyanna are his parents is not the red herring because it's not established or suggested, you have to work it out.

And you think Rhaegar as Jon's father is a red herring for Robert? OK.  Why not Mance?  There are people who argue that with as little basis.

Dude this ideology is so enmeshed with all types of fallacy and just wrong thinking i don't even know how to begin to answer you except to  remind you and i had to explain this to someone.

A red herring doesn't have to be stated to be a red herring. Because no one in the story suggested RL are his parents doesn't  mean it isn't a red herring.

Definition:Red Herring- something, especially a clue, that is or is intended to be misleading or distracting.

What a lot of people didn't and did notice has no bearing on what is the truth or not.A lot of you guys need to get this straight. If a lot of people didn't "notice" it then a lot of people didn't notice it and GRRM did his job well.

6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Well the question you ask at the bottom of this section is, yet again, explicitly demonstrated by your argumnets directly above it so I have to wonder what on earth you think you are trying to prove here.

Where is that danm face palm emoji... What i think about it being obvious doesn't matter.Somehow many of you proponents get offended when people say its obvious. If you look at what GRRM has written and done on tv this really is super obvious for him.Again, nothing to prove just giving it to you straight.

 

7 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Goodness.  You did indeed say "wasn't" not "was".  Mea Culpa.  I suppose if you had said at this point that Robert was the most logical explanation then even a lazy reader like me might have caught on!

To me RLJ is just another  theory.I am just telling you who i believe Jon's parents are.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

/*bringing popcorn*/

Here you have the tenets of wolfmaid's theory, guys. Have fun. 

Thank you very much Ygrain you are to kind. You didn't have to go through all that trouble seeing as its in my sig.

But thanks for being a doll....Buh bye, duces;)

4 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Robert couldn't be Jon's parent. It's scientifically impossible for Lyanna to have been kidnapped before Brandon was taken and still have a child with Robert that passes off as the same age as Robb. That would be nearly a year's difference.

That is something that we can say definitively. There's also the fact that Lyanna hated Robert/didn't want to marry him.

Not really. People come to this conclusion based on one or more of these seemingly unrelated clues, which- by themselves- are meaningless. But when you take them at face value, based upon one another, they paint a fairly specific picture.

  1. No. I'm using it as further evidence to bolster my point. The Kingsguard being at the Tower of Joy to keep one girl hostage is odd, but stranger things have happened in the series. But if you take the theory of R+L=J into account. It makes more sense. I'm not making an assumption about anything; I'm saying that it would make more sense for Ser Arthur Dayne- the man who allowed his opponent to get a new sword in the middle of a duel to the death- would be protecting a member of the Royal family. Not an assumption, but a inference based on additional textual information.
  2. No. I'm stating that Wylla being Jon's nurse would- in the most logical situation- mean that Jon was in Dorne at some point, or was picked up on the way to Starfall, given that it is Wylla's home/eventual destination (it is never made clear if she was there before Ned arrived, or if he picked her up on the way, or if she arrived later (which would be the oddest situation)). It would mean that, if Ned Dayne is right, Wylla would have logically nursed him between King's Landing and Starfall. Where ios the Tower of Joy?
  3. No. I'm making the statement that everyone- including the man he grew up with, who he considers a brother- thinks this is out of character for him. I am noting that it would be difficult for a woman- if Wylla was in Dorne, where she eventually served as Ned Dayne's wet-nurse- to have had a relationship with Ned, who wasn't in Dorne during the war, and go back to Dorne (I am making the assumption that Jon was born in Dorne, based on  Wylla's location at the moment, Ned's visiting Starfall at the time, and Jon being nursed by Wylla).
  4. No. I'm saying that it's suspicious that Ned never told Catelyn or Jon- a motherless child- who his mother was, but had no problem telling Robert who she was (though he wouldn't say much more). It's odd- especially if there's nothing to hide. If he told Jon, he'd probably go to Dorne- where they are more accepting of bastards- and find his mother. If R+L=J, this makes far more sense, as Ned wouldn't be able to tell the truth about her, but he clearly has a problem with lying so blatantly. It's his defining feature and his fatal flaw.
  5. Ned never says: The mother of Jon Snow was Wylla. But he does confirm when Robert asks him.

So, just to recap:

  • Ned certainly confirms that Wylla is Jon's mother. Whether it's a misdirect or a real answer, he answers "Wylla" when Robert asks who Jon's mother is (unless he has other bastards)
  • He also doesn't tell Catelyn or Jon. He tells Robert because he is his king and because Robert was never going to let it go.

I never said you needed to be a Targaryen. He could be a dragonseed, but he'd still have an easier time controlling the dragons, given his (supposed) dragon blood and his latent skinchanging ability.

Drogon does whatever the eff he wants, but Ghost, Greywind, Lady; all of them are obedient to their masters. This would be useful for a dragon rider/dragonlord.

 

Wrong thread for this debate.You asked a question,i answered. You wanted to know what i believe i told you what i believe.Seeing as i have and had no desire to convince anyone this is pointless. The purpose of the Heresy project was have everyone's ideas and theories for posterity.When GRRM finally lets us know who Jon's parents are a Heresy reveal thread will be posted to discuss. 

But i'll do this,( and i am doing it just to show what i mean about how most of you guys reason things, or just make crap up and pass it as fact). I bolded two claims in your statement that "YOU SAID WERE FACTS"

Facts y'uall !!!

1.Prove to me textually .Show me the texts where it states or shows that Lyanna according to you " hated Robert "and "didn't want to marry him."

2. Quantify for me what " of and age" means regarding Jon.

Do these two things for me, and we can have a debate about how there is " no proof that Robert and Lyanna" are Jon's parents.

Can you do that? That fair,if not there is no need to go further.

 

 

Edited by wolfmaid7

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@Jon_Stargaryen

I'm not picking on you,i'm using this as an example in one of your post.This is an example of what i mean in how the clues used in RLJ are reasoned out.

If people are honest, truly honest they will call a spade a spade.

this is what Jon star wrote:

"No. I'm using it as further evidence to bolster my point. The Kingsguard being at the Tower of Joy to keep one girl hostage is odd, but stranger things have happened in the series. But if you take the theory of R+L=J into account. It makes more sense."

Please,please someone be honest and tell me what is wrong with this? 

 

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2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

@Jon_Stargaryen

I'm not picking on you,i'm using this as an example in one of your post.This is an example of what i mean in how the clues used in RLJ are reasoned out.

If people are honest, truly honest they will call a spade a spade.

this is what Jon star wrote:

"No. I'm using it as further evidence to bolster my point. The Kingsguard being at the Tower of Joy to keep one girl hostage is odd, but stranger things have happened in the series. But if you take the theory of R+L=J into account. It makes more sense."

Please,please someone be honest and tell me what is wrong with this? 

 

If Jon was Rhaegar and Lyanna's, he'd still be a bastard.

Why would the Kingsguard protect a bastard?  Rhaegar couldn't have legitimized him and Aerys had no clue...

 

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On 08/03/2018 at 6:59 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Anyone who thinks this story will have the "one true hero and saviour of the universe" is missing out on a whole lotta story, and they're in for a nice surprise. :)

 

    Even if Jon is THE PRINCE, Azor Ahai does not automatically means that the end will be one true hero ending where Jon marries Danny, has children and live happily ever after with sugar on the top.

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18 minutes ago, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

If Jon was Rhaegar and Lyanna's, he'd still be a bastard.

Why would the Kingsguard protect a bastard?  Rhaegar couldn't have legitimized him and Aerys had no clue...

 

I wouldn't be so sure about that:)

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3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

 < SNIP >

Calm down and stop saying dude all the time, it's like you're getting in character for a Ted and Bill's excellent adventure rerun. 

There is nothing in your post that points to Robert being Jon's father at all.  But you sure went out of your way to make an affort to bolster your argument with the "dude" wildcard.  Never saw it as  strengthening an argument tbh and still don't.  And we got coloured fonts as well, it must be legit......

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I will gladly answer your question, but i will also like to point out your attitude expressed in the bolded is exactly one of the problems on this site. You have no idea what i'm going to say, yet you already resigned in your mind that my reason is NOT liking the obvious so i'm settling for something with gaping holes? Are you serious right now? This is the unwarranted, self inflated RLJ egotism expressed by many of its proponents right there. Take that how you wish.

I'm expressing the opinion, having read the books a number of times, that any theory that attempts to argue that Robert is Jon's father is going to be full of gaping holes.  First and most obvious of which, as I already stated, is why Ned raised Jon in secret rather than handing him over to Robert or even allowing Robert  to play the absent father as he did with Mya Stone and Edric Storm.  You may try and construct an explanation for this but it's going to be flimsy.

The self inflated egotism doesn't come from me.

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Back to your question.

"Based on" you ask- What I believe are the clues, its as simple as that.

Why didn't Ned give Robert to raise Jon?   Well to be honest if i had the same info as Ned did at the time; i wouldn't give Robert  Jon to raise.

What you would do is neither here nor there.  Ned and Robert are close friends who fall out over the murder of the Targaryen children but are reconciled by Lyanna's death.  For Ned to take Robert's son and conceal him is both unforgivable and unnecessary.  The only danger Ned needs to protect Jon from is Robert's fury towards dragonspawn not his own numerous bastards.

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Back on track now.

Ned didn't give Jon to Robert because of the following:

1.Sum:  As a bastard which Jon is ,from Ned's point  understanding of society,religion and the law Jon would be shunned at court.He knew what the stain of bastardry meant and it didn't matter if Robert would have given him a name.It just would have been an unhappy place for Jon.

He has seen Mya Stone in the Vale and the Vale is where she remains.  Edric Storm is in due course raised at Storm's End.  Ned has absolutley no reason to fear giving robert his own son in case he takes him to court and places him in an unhappy place (and arguably Jon is unhappier because of Catelyn's coldness towards him in any case).  Ned will make this reasoning simply enough before deciding to betray his friend and damage his relationship with his own wife.  And over the thought his nephew might not be happy with the decisions his own father makes about raising him?  It's not for Ned to take it upon himself to intervene with other people's children!

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:
2.We also know from Ned's conversation with Cat that he has been observing over the years if Robert's bastards are welcomed at court. He knows they are not and fingers Cersie as the reason they aren't welcomed at court.Even if Ned prior to going to KL didn't know that Cersie was capable of killing Robert's children he had a good enough second reason for Jon not to know.
 
And as fate would have it we have now come to a place now where it is Robert's children that are a threat to Cersie.Jon being Rhaegar's son was never relevant to his saftey.That is an assumption.Jon is now a threat should his parentage be revealed....From Cersie and with good reason it's already being set up that way.
 
 
a.“Catelyn Tully was a mouse, or she would have smothered this Jon Snow in his cradle. Instead, she's left the filthy task to me (AFFC Cersie).”
 
b.“There was another bastard, a boy (Gendry), older. I took steps to see him removed from harm's way...but I confess, I never dreamed the babe would be at risk. A base born girl, less than a year old, with a whore for a mother, what threat could she pose?” "She was Robert’s that was enough for Cersei it would seem (Tyrion&Varys ACOK).
 
c.“Once, after that sorry business with the cat, he (Robert) had made some noises about bringing some baseborn daughter of his to court. “Do as you please," she'd told him, "but you may find that the city is not a healthy place for a growing girl.”(AFFC,Cersie).
 
This question seems very important for you to have answer,so i am specifically answering your question.As a point there is nothing but the assumption that Ned didn't tell Robert because he would kill Jon.I really need you all to think about how utterly ridiculous that is.RLJ created a question it thinks was important and needed to be answered;then answered it.
I mean Jeez.I mean seriously RLJ created a Boogey man in Jon in order to make Jon a Targ whereby robert could be a threat.:unsure:

Well this is as muddled as everything you have said in this thread.  The danger at court is of course an empty argument as none of Robert's bastards are taken to court and Ned has no reason to believe Jon will be.  Robert's bastards are equally obviously safe as long as he lives and therefore for Ned to want to protect Jon by hiding him from Robert means either he is protecting him from Robert (he's not) or he is so unbelievably pessimistic as to be guarding against the day when Robert dies and someone tries to kill all his bastards.  Now in the latter case asking Robert's permission to raise him at WF on his friend's behalf agasint the threat of Doomsday would makes sense, but not telling Robert at all and lying all his life is out of character and plain poor reasoning.

Your last paragraph here is a little incoherent.  You are expressly mocking this theory and claiming it is an an invention spawned by the Hivemind's need to find some kind of evidence for R+L=J yet what you offer in it's place it the idea that Ned was protecting Jon from his own father.  And he did this all his life in secret.  And he never once thinks of this because?  But he doesn't hide Jon from his own father when Robert turns up at WF?  Does Jon look like a Barratheon or have the build like Gendry or the coal black hair?  Your argument is flimsy yet you mock the one which holds together much better.   I'm sorry but I hope you didn't depend too long on this argument!

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Dude:rolleyes: really? Don't assume stuff you don't know because you haven't asked.I have made it very clear as a character i don't like Robert. I've admitted that bias frequently, but evidence is evidence. You then now make potash of yourself by claiming there is no evidence that Robert is Jon's father which is your opinion. When its all said and done GRRM will reveal who picked up true clues vs red herrings.

 

Potash? :D har-de-har.  I would rather be potash than whatever is leaking out of your distended cranium!  What evidence?  I've yet to see you post anything of the sort......

As to the rest of your post....

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:
I wish i had a face palm emoji.... Dude there was no process needed,no extensive thought to ponder by me to shout RLJ.Just recognizing what was a familiar tale.That's why to me if this is the solution it is was obvious. That pattern was very easy to identify and what jumped out at me was the condensed form i posted.That pattern so blatant on "the cover" imo suggest a herring.You really don't listen or you do and just don't accept reality. I re-read with no expectation except to tell a few people i was still arriving at RLJ.

Of course, the old it's obvious so I'll look for another answer but insist its not because "it's too obvious" line of reasoning (the one that you don't believe you do...).  I mean the pattern was so blatant that it screamed red herring at you but it's not because this was too obvious for you that you came to the conclusion that Robert was Jon's father......

I don't have a facepalm emoji either but this one is fitting! :bang:

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:
Yes, i honestly think the story will have a reveal that Jon is Robert's and Lyanna. This ain't the most important thing in the story dude,there are bigger things going on.I'm not trying or have a desire to convince you or anyone i am just stating a theory i believe makes more sense. Only GRRM is going to answer that and what you or I believe or don't believe isn't going to stop him telling his story.

Ok dude, so you really believe it.  In that case I suggest you get your daily newsfeed from Infowars, you will probably find it right up your street!

And you finally said something sensible.  Jon's parentage is not the most important thing in the story, nor even for Jon as a character and he will fulfill his arc - whatever that might be - because of who he is and how he was raised, not who his parents really were.  As many others have said it's not whether R+L=J or the hidden prince trope existing that is "too obvious" to appeal to GRRM's mind or find a place in his writing as what he does with it or how he deconstructs it that we should be interested in.  If you reject R+L=J because you found a better answer fair enough (though you have yet to show it) but if you reject it because it's too Disney or too obvious and because you are projecting roles or predicting outcomes that you think are too sacharine based on it then you (or people in general) are probably making a big mistake based on how GRRM writes.

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Again i really wish my face palm theory, excuse me if you think the strength of this theory is dependant on how many people believe it; I'll let you in on a secret. The earth really is flat....ShhhB)

The strength of a theory is not based on it's popularity alone, people being capable of being fickle or mischievous or credulous, but the more people who are persauded by a theory's arguments the stronger it appears.

So, e.g. the number of people who believe R+L=J as compared to the number of people who believe Robert is Jon's father does seem indicative to me of the strength - and here I mean coherence, consistency and plausibility based on textual clues - of the two theories.

That's the way it works here on Planet Earth.  Wherever you are from I can't say but maybe you really think it is flat.  Don't fall off now!

4 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:
Dude this ideology is so enmeshed with all types of fallacy and just wrong thinking i don't even know how to begin to answer you except to  remind you and i had to explain this to someone.

A red herring doesn't have to be stated to be a red herring. Because no one in the story suggested RL are his parents doesn't  mean it isn't a red herring.

Definition:Red Herring- something, especially a clue, that is or is intended to be misleading or distracting.

What a lot of people didn't and did notice has no bearing on what is the truth or not.A lot of you guys need to get this straight. If a lot of people didn't "notice" it then a lot of people didn't notice it and GRRM did his job well.

Nope.  Why do you think it's called a red herring? You do realise it's because a red herring stands out and is meant to draw your attention so that the real culprit / *insert x based on mystery* slips by unnoticed.  You do realise this because you even quote the meaning....A red herring that fails to be noticed by part of the readership - and quite a large part of it, maybe even a large majority of it - simply doesn't work.

Wylla and Ashara are the red herrings for R+L (or L to be more precise) just as Tyrion and Jaime/Cersei are the red herrings for the catspaw assassination attempt (Joffrey) and Cersei and Hugh of the Vale are the red herrings for the murder of Jon Arryn (Lysa).  The red herrings draw the eye and are considered by characters in story to be the culprits but red herrings is what they are.  R+L are not set up as red herrings, they are the answer you have to reach for yourself...with or without an internet forum.

4 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:
Where is that danm face palm emoji... What i think about it being obvious doesn't matter.Somehow many of you proponents get offended when people say its obvious. If you look at what GRRM has written and done on tv this really is super obvious for him.Again, nothing to prove just giving it to you straight.

The old too obvious argument again.  Sigh.  :bang:

it's not whether R+L=J is a thing but what he does with it in story - if anything except for Jon to reject it and consider Ned and his siblings his true family! - that will determine if anything is too obvious. For my money it won't be and all these edgelords assuming they know what GRRM won't write will find they were fighting the wrong battles by the time the story's told.....

4 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:
To me RLJ is just another  theory.I am just telling you who i believe Jon's parents are.

Right....The very thing I told you at the outset I wasn't interested in debating given it's as entrenched as the Western Front.  I'm not even particularly interested in your thought process behind accepting then rejecting it.  What is entertaining and a little bit worrying is the extent to which your arguments align very neatly with the idea that "it's too obvious" (and there is a whole bunch of arguments in that little bundle) and the degree to which you flat out denied this while continuing to explain why it is too obvious!!  If only you understood that we would not even be talking.......

I respect your right to think Robert is Jon's father.  Or Mance.  Or Aerys.  Or Ossifer Plumm of the improbably tailored suit.  I don't care :dunno:

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